US Politics II

[LuckyNumber7]

If it's directed at my earlier comment... Atifa is an Arabic women's name. And I'm half Arab. And I know people with this name. So... it does, literally, sound Arab. Aunt + Atifa... Antifa. Ok?

 

[Irvine511]

If it's directed at my earlier comment... Atifa is an Arabic women's name. And I'm half Arab. And I know people with this name. So... it does, literally, sound Arab. Aunt + Atifa... Antifa. Ok?

No, I was literally thinking that, if you're an idiot and predisposed to dislike leftists, it does sound like a Muslim group, likely because said idiot might get it confused with Intifada.

 

[LuckyNumber7]

No, I was literally thinking that, if you're an idiot and predisposed to dislike leftists, it does sound like a Muslim group, likely because said idiot might get it confused with Intifada.

Before you replied I was about to say this is what I thought you meant, but opted to just let you speak for yourself. Because yeah, this is what I think the right would make of such a name. Which, tbh, might be egged on by some of the folks of the left. Which I don't support. I don't like this new brand of right because they justify everything through "anti PC" and "I'm just trolling" and sarcasm and whatever. That shit needs to stop, ya know? Definitely don't want the troll game to be encouraged.

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

But does antifa like pizza?

 

[BoMac]

https://twitter.com/marcus4america/status/899297623437225984

 

[JTNash]

How big a group is antifa in the USA anyway it sounds like it's just a made up enemy for the right

 

[IWasBored]

I never had a problem with it. It's weird seeing all these mentions of this stuff outside of discussions of pertaining to skinhead bands though.

 

[BVS]

 

[Vlad n U 2]

How big a group is antifa in the USA anyway it sounds like it's just a made up enemy for the right

lol

 

[BVS]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...&utm_term=.73e6f841e4ef&wpisrc=nl_most&wpmm=1


Will Trump start calling them Fake News?

 

[BEAL]

And he knows how to get under his skin by suggesting that Trump isn't the one making the real decisions.

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

All the likes

https://twitter.com/ChrisStephensMD/status/900192642234949632?s=09

 

[BEAL]

So antifa is an organization that openly states that they want to bring violence to rid the world of fascists? Or they have no issue with being violent, it's their preferred method.

If this is true, then this just gives Trump and the Right more rights to bitch about how the Left doesn't support free speech, or freedom.

You get a Alt-Right rally (so KKK, Neo Nazis, etc) where they've got a permit to do their thing, and antifa shows up and starts fighting with them, wouldn't that fit in with Trumps "both sides" comment?

I am not defending Nazis, but I am defending the right to protest under the first amendment. Part of me wants these Alt-right talks to fall under hate speech. They do nothing but incite violence, and it has no place in society (within your own walls, sure). A group like antifa appears happy to comply with this violence.

antifa appears to be nothing but goons, and while I don't want or like fascism, I also don't believe in using violence to get your point across.

It's a very interesting time right now, and with the right leader a lot of this shit could be squashed. We don't have that. He's going to make the extremes on both sides become more prevalent

 

[LuckyNumber7]

Let's be clear. Right now, antifa is not an organized group. It's a namesake and a branding that is developing. I go buy an antifa shirt and promote the idea and the media sees it and I'm an antifa member.

This is what I was saying the other day... I don't want opposition to be a bunch of "non-PC trolls." Please, left, do not stoop to that level. It will forever change politics and how we interact. Shrouded or uncertain sarcasm can't be the voice of a serious topic. Because some folks will be serious about it.

 

[nbelcik]

So antifa is an organization that openly states that they want to bring violence to rid the world of fascists? Or they have no issue with being violent, it's their preferred method.

If this is true, then this just gives Trump and the Right more rights to bitch about how the Left doesn't support free speech, or freedom.

You get a Alt-Right rally (so KKK, Neo Nazis, etc) where they've got a permit to do their thing, and antifa shows up and starts fighting with them, wouldn't that fit in with Trumps "both sides" comment?

I am not defending Nazis, but I am defending the right to protest under the first amendment. Part of me wants these Alt-right talks to fall under hate speech. They do nothing but incite violence, and it has no place in society (within your own walls, sure). A group like antifa appears happy to comply with this violence.

antifa appears to be nothing but goons, and while I don't want or like fascism, I also don't believe in using violence to get your point across.

It's a very interesting time right now, and with the right leader a lot of this shit could be squashed. We don't have that. He's going to make the extremes on both sides become more prevalent

There's a principle called the paradox of tolerance that states that a tolerant society should be intolerant of intolerance because if intolerant people gain power than a tolerant society ceases to exist. This paradox naturally leads to the question of how far do we go in combatting intolerance. I for one, am perfectly fine with violence being used against Nazis. Nazi and white supremacist ideology explicitly advocates violence and if they gain power they will use violence against the marginalized. Better to stop them before they gain power. If violence had been used against the Nazi Party in the 1920s and early 1930s, they might not have gained power and the horrors of the Holocaust would not have happened.

 

[BEAL]

But should those who use violence against Nazis still be arrested and follow the rule of law?

So I go to protest a Alt-Right rally, and I decide to just beat the fuck out of one of them. What do I accomplish other than being able to say I beat up a Nazi?

Do I accept the criminal charges that would be warranted in our society?

 

[DaveC]

 

[BEAL]

I am not disagreeing so much, but we now have so much shit flying around with social media and 24/7 news organizations, one major one that fuels the Right, that if a Neo Nazi runs someone over with a car.....there doesn't seem to be that much outrage....because the Orange Nazi in the White House won't even talk about it.

But if a "leftist" swings a bat at a nazi, that's all the focus will be on.

It's a very interesting time, and I would also say quite scary.

 

[U2girl]

Donald Trump's 57 most outrageous quotes from his Arizona speech - CNNPolitics

 

[Diemen]

There were numerous reports from Charlottesville that antifa groups were protecting protestors from the white nationalist/supremacist/Nazi thugs. Cornell West, among others, said he owed his life to them that day.

 

[BEAL]

I don't trust anythign Cornell West has to say. The guy is a blowhard.

If it's true though then that's a great thing antifa did to protect people. We don't know for sure though.

I prefer my information to come from FAKE NEWS

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

All the likes

https://twitter.com/ChrisStephensMD/status/900192642234949632?s=09

I like the tweet below that video:

Somewhere in Phoenix, carpet is not being sold at rockbottom prices because this guy's at a Trump Rally.

Donald Trump's 57 most outrageous quotes from his Arizona speech - CNNPolitics

Sooooooo...basically, this guy had a rally just so he could whine about the media's reaction to his Charlottesville comments and rant about "antifa!"

I'd like to say I'm stunned by how he still tries to defend his lack of immediate reaction to that tragedy, as well as the batshit crazy remarks he made that following Tuesday. But sadly, I'm not. And that's the scary part.

To say nothing of the sheer audacity of him claiming those who fought back against the neo-Nazis/white supremacists/KKK members and supporters at that rally are the ones who don't love this country. The people they were fighting are openly supporting a time in our history where a group of states LEFT THIS FREAKING COUNTRY, because they didn't approve of what the administration wanted to do in regards to slavery. That's about as anti-American as it gets.

(On that note, can somebody please try explaining to me how exactly our history is "erased" by removing statues? Do any and all other means of learning about various time periods in history suddenly evaporate when a statue comes down now, or what?)

"Our movement is a movement built on love."

The delusion, it's amazing...

"We all share the same home, the same dreams and the same hopes for a better future. A wound inflicted upon one member of our community is a wound inflicted upon us all."

If only he'd thought to say something like this the day of the events in Charlottesville. And if only I could believe he actually meant even one word of this sentiment.

 

[nbelcik]

But should those who use violence against Nazis still be arrested and follow the rule of law?

So I go to protest a Alt-Right rally, and I decide to just beat the fuck out of one of them. What do I accomplish other than being able to say I beat up a Nazi?

Do I accept the criminal charges that would be warranted in our society?

That's a really good question and it deserves some thought. I'm not really sure I have an answer to that question right now

 

[BVS]

Trump doesn't like people who got caught or lost, you'd think he'd be all for removing the celebration of losers

I live in the south and it's always baffled me, I can't think of any other instance where we name schools and erect statues of the losing side.

 

[mama cass]

There's a principle called the paradox of tolerance that states that a tolerant society should be intolerant of intolerance because if intolerant people gain power than a tolerant society ceases to exist. This paradox naturally leads to the question of how far do we go in combatting intolerance. I for one, am perfectly fine with violence being used against Nazis. Nazi and white supremacist ideology explicitly advocates violence and if they gain power they will use violence against the marginalized. Better to stop them before they gain power. If violence had been used against the Nazi Party in the 1920s and early 1930s, they might not have gained power and the horrors of the Holocaust would not have happened.

 

[mama cass]

There were numerous reports from Charlottesville that antifa groups were protecting protestors from the white nationalist/supremacist/Nazi thugs. Cornell West, among others, said he owed his life to them that day.

yeah i read about that too... they were trying to protect the clergy, but the clergy asked them to respect their wishes for non-violence and stand back, and the antifa guys respectfully stepped back but were very worried, and then a whole crowd of nazis started to charge at the clergy armed with batons, and it would have been a bloodbath, and the antifa protesters stepped in quickly, went running at the nazis and broke their charge on the clergy - definitely saved them from a beating!

i respect these kids a lot

 

[mama cass]

I don't trust anythign Cornell West has to say. The guy is a blowhard.

for real?

If it's true though then that's a great thing antifa did to protect people. We don't know for sure though.

I prefer my information to come from FAKE NEWS

yeah well i read it from a couple of different sources, one from a clergy member who was there...

 

[mama cass]

So I go to protest a Alt-Right rally, and I decide to just beat the fuck out of one of them. What do I accomplish other than being able to say I beat up a Nazi?

that's not meant to be how it works - they're not really meant to incite violence, or use violence for the sake of it

they go there ready to jump in and defend when the nazi thugs kick off, to fight back - the fachos don't understand logic and rational discussion, so they need a strong message telling them how vile and unacceptable they are - sometimes things are so evil you need to get angry about them

 

[mama cass]

Do I accept the criminal charges that would be warranted in our society?

also depends on your society

in my society, the nazis would face criminal charges for doing what they're doing, speaking their hate speech and displaying their hate symbols

if a nazi punched me and i punched him back, like for like, i would not be charged as it would be self-defence, plus there's the whole "incitement" aspect too

 

[Wide Awake n AZ]

1. Last night in Phoenix was a shit show. That was the most amazingly ridiculous speech ever given by a president. Pure id flowing. He tried to get the crowd to turn on the media, flat out lied over and over (not even "fact check" lying...just lying), like saying the "red lights" of the cameras were turning off because media didn't want to hear what he was saying; saying the crowd in the convention center was huge (it wasn't...pictures and people I know who were in there said it was like the crowd that gathers around a fight...circular, standing, and many on the outside edges leaving during the fight); that the crowd outside was tiny (it wasn't); claiming he was misrepresented or lied about in his Charlottesville quotes, then reading his quote for emphasis to show how "fair" he was, except he left off the final 3 words "on all sides" that caused all the uproar...and so on. It made me ill...actually sick to my stomach. He claimed Democrats were obstructionists, yet the Dem vote has not mattered on anything so far, Rs don't run anything past the Ds, and saying a party in fundamental opposition to your plan to repeal Obamacare is "obstructing" by voting "no" is the language of a fucking dictator. And that shoe fits...free media is "evil", those with opposite views are "obstructionist", lying to the people openly, changing quotes and presenting them as whole...this was awful.

2. Cracks me up when people say the Antifa are out to do this or that...they don't exist. There is no "Antifa...southern chapter. Please send dues." Anyone can don a uniform of anti-fascists and go out in the streets. Some are doing so to fight fascism. Some are doing so to break shit. The Antifa member #4 in Berkeley is not member #4 in Charlottesville...there is no set of rules or characteristics. So quit referring to them as a group that is aligned with the Democrats when they aren't even a group. It's more an idea.


3. The tolerance paradox...another set of words for it is "Ha ha...you dumbasses. I used your own tolerance to fuck you." It is absurd to claim a group that preaches tolerance as an overall state of desired interaction is somehow in breech of their social contract because they don't "tolerate" people who want to destroy their social contract of tolerance. It is irrational. If you were tolerant of all, including those who hate tolerance and wish to abolish it, you would never get anything but your ass kicked by those who want you to go away. Being for "tolerance" is sometimes to fight against those who wish to set intolerance as the public agenda. It isn't hard to follow.


4. Phoenix PD fired tear gas into crowds that were, according to Trump, not really crowds. The problem is, they were crowds, and more than a few were with their children, trying to teach a civic lesson in political participation. That was a 99.99% peaceful crowd...but if you show up in riot gear and start marching toward people in lawful assembly participating in the civic marketplace of ideas, firing tear gas, looking to neutralize the citizenry, you might get a fight. It was totally unnecessary.