US Politics II - Page 55 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 08-25-2017, 10:18 AM   #1081
Blue Crack Addict
 
Moonlit_Angel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: In a dimension known as the Twilight Zone...do de doo doo, do de doo doo...
Posts: 20,720
Local Time: 12:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BEAL View Post
Are there any non conspiracy theory conservatives around anymore? Miss the days of at least trying to debate trickle down economics versus child sex rings in non existent basements of pizza parlors.

Now we have to legitimize neo nazis as a discrimination group?
Amen to this. I'm honestly wondering the same thing myself. What the hell happened to get our country to this point, seriously? Why are we at the mercy of people who knowingly spout bullshit?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vlad n U 2 View Post
If they renounce their Nazi sympathising and act towards rectifying it in some meaningful way (educating others in danger of going down that path etc.), then I think that goes a way towards redemption.
Fully agreed on this. I have heard a few stories here and there of former KKK/neo-Nazis who've done just that. It definitely shows not all hope is lost for some people.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Diemen View Post
Uh... what??
Yeeeeeeah, that comment made me do a double take, too. And considering I clearly remember talking and debating with AEON here in the past, reading these posts is...disheartening, to say the very least.
__________________

Moonlit_Angel is offline  
Old 08-25-2017, 10:19 AM   #1082
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 33,467
Local Time: 02:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AEON View Post
I slipped that I'm near the end as a bit of a joke. I recall much love for wikileaks when the leaks were all damaging to then President Bush. Whether Seth Rich was murdered by the DNA or not for approaching wikileaks, we will probably never know. But his name represents the complete failure of the Russian-Trump conspiracy theories...



No, we do know. Seth Rich was murdered in a robbery. It happened probably 10 blocks from where I live.

So, we do know. Stop insinuating there is more to the plot when there isn't.
__________________

Irvine511 is offline  
Old 08-25-2017, 10:26 AM   #1083
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
AEON's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: California
Posts: 4,052
Local Time: 11:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irvine511 View Post
You're absolutely right. It's the real upside-down, where equality is oppression and the inability to discriminate is discrimination.

I saw someone call ANTIFA "book burners" -- like, who burned all those books back in the 30s, bro?
Well, they do burn buildings and cars...
AEON is offline  
Old 08-25-2017, 10:27 AM   #1084
Blue Crack Distributor
 
corianderstem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Seattle
Posts: 64,498
Local Time: 11:55 PM
On a plane now, then on a beach and hopefully able to shut my brain off regarding anything serious so byeeeeeee
corianderstem is offline  
Old 08-25-2017, 10:31 AM   #1085
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
AEON's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: California
Posts: 4,052
Local Time: 11:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonlit_Angel View Post
Amen to this. I'm honestly wondering the same thing myself. What the hell happened to get our country to this point, seriously? Why are we at the mercy of people who knowingly spout bullshit?

.
It might have something to do with the arrogance it takes to make a statement like this. The inability to listen to all sides of an issue has been the Left's downfall.

As far as conspiracies go- oh Lord. We've been given one unproven conspiracy after another by the Left.
AEON is offline  
Old 08-25-2017, 10:35 AM   #1086
Blue Crack Addict
 
anitram's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: NY
Posts: 18,918
Local Time: 02:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AEON View Post
The inability to listen to all sides of an issue has been the Left's downfall.
You keep telling yourself that when this entire administration goes down the dumpster and you run away as quickly from them as Republicans ran away from Bush.

This bullshit about listening to all sides means we need to sit down and listen to the Nazis in the Vice documentary? NO, we do not.

I have a good friend, the wife of an old boss. She is Jewish and her father was a Holocaust survivor. He is featured in one of the most famous photos of the liberation of Auschwitz, front and centre, completely emaciated and barely alive. She has been very active in opposing these new American Nazis and has spoken many times about how appalling and offensive it is when people suggest that we reach out and "listen to all sides". So it's incumbent upon a Holocaust survivor to listen to people telling him that Hitler should have finished the job? You are totally morally bankrupt if you believe this.
anitram is offline  
Old 08-25-2017, 10:38 AM   #1087
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 33,467
Local Time: 02:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AEON View Post
Well, they do burn buildings and cars...


Quote:
Whataboutism: The Cold War tactic, thawed by Putin, is brandished by Donald Trump

What about antifa? What about free speech? What about the guy who shot Steve Scalise? What about the mosque in Minnesota that got bombed? What about North Korea? What about murders in Chicago? What about Ivanka at the G-20? What about Vince Foster? If white pride is bad, then what about gay pride? What about the stock market? What about those 33,000 deleted emails? What about Hitler? What about the Crusades? What about the asteroid that may one day kill us all? What about Benghazi?

What about what about what about.

We’ve gotten very good at what-abouting.

The president has led the way.

His campaign may or may not have conspired with Moscow, but President Trump has routinely employed a durable old Soviet propaganda tactic. Tuesday’s bonkers news conference in New York was Trump’s latest act of “whataboutism,” the practice of short-circuiting an argument by asserting moral equivalency between two things that aren’t necessarily comparable. In this case, the president wondered whether the removal of a statue of Confederate leader Robert E. Lee in Charlottesville — where white supremacists clashed this weekend with counterprotesters — would lead to the teardown of others.

“George Washington was a slave owner,” Trump said to journalists in the lobby of his corporate headquarters. “Are we going to take down statues to George Washington? How about Thomas Jefferson?”

Using the literal “what about” construction, Trump then went on to blame “both sides” for the violence in Charlottesville.

“What about the ‘alt-left’ that came charging at the, as you say, the ‘alt-right’?” the president said. “Do they have any semblance of guilt?”

For a nanosecond, especially to an uncritical listener, this stab at logic might seem interesting, even thought-provoking, and that’s why it’s a useful political tool. Whataboutism appears to broaden context, to offer a counterpoint, when really it’s diverting blame, muddying the waters and confusing the hell out of rational listeners.

“Not only does it help to deflect your original argument but it also throws you off balance,” says Alexey Kovalev, an independent Russian journalist, on the phone from Moscow. “You’re expecting to be in a civilized argument that doesn’t use cheap tricks like that. You are playing chess and your opponent — while making a lousy move — he just punches you on the nose.”

Vladimir Putin has made a national sport of what-abouting. In 2014, when a journalist challenged him on his annexation of Crimea, Putin brought up the U.S. annexation of Texas. The American invasion of Iraq is constantly what-abouted on state television, to excuse all kinds of Russian behavior.

In Edward Snowden, “Russia has found the ultimate whataboutism mascot,” the Atlantic’s Olga Khazan wrote in 2013. “By granting him asylum, Russia casts itself, even if momentarily, as a defender of human rights, and the U.S. as the oppressor.”

The term was first coined as “whataboutery” and “the whatabouts,” in stories about the Irish Republican Army in the 1970s, according to linguist Ben Zimmer. But the practice goes back to the chilly depths of the Cold War.

“An old joke 50 years ago was that if you went to a Stalinist and criticized the Soviet slave-labor camps, the Stalinist would say, ‘Well what about the lynchings in the American South?’” philosopher Noam Chomsky once said.

In 1970, as the Soviet Union made headlines for imprisoning dissidents, Ukrainian artist Viktor Koretsky created a propaganda lithograph titled “American Politics at home and abroad.” It depicted U.S. police beating a black man and a U.S. soldier standing over a dead body, presumably in Vietnam.

In May 1985 the U.S. State Department funded a conference at the Madison Hotel on the fallacy of “moral equivalence,” a philosophical cousin of whataboutism. The goal was to tamp down comparisons of the 1983 U.S. invasion of Grenada with the 1979 Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, among other instances. The actions may be comparable, the State Department implied, but the intentions were not.

“If it is no longer possible to distinguish between freedom and despotism,” said Jeane Kirkpatrick, Ronald Reagan’s ambassador to the United Nations, then “the erosion of the foundation of a distinctively Western, democratic civilization is already far advanced and the situation serious indeed.”

Flash forward 30 years. President Trump’s Twitter feed has been a whataboutism showcase, with Hillary Clinton as the usual target.

April 3: “Did Hillary Clinton ever apologize for receiving the answers to the debate? Just asking!”

June 26: “The real story is that President Obama did NOTHING after being informed in August about Russian meddling.”

July 22: “. . . What about all of the Clinton ties to Russia . . .”

Googling of “Whataboutism” began to climb sharply in November of last year; this week, with Charlottesville, it reached an all-time high. “You look at both sides,” Trump said Tuesday, after saying “what about” three times. “I think there is blame on both sides . . . and nobody wants to say that.”

Some people saw this as brave truth-telling, and as exposing double standards in the media.

“Trump-haters on both sides of the aisle simply cry ‘whataboutism,’ as if it were a magic spell to ward off rational thought,” wrote Joel B. Pollak on the right-wing site Breitbart.com, in an article headlined “The attack on ‘whataboutism’ is a defense of hypocrisy.”

Trump’s most flagrant what-about, though, was used not in defense of himself, but in defense of Russia.

“Putin’s a killer,” Bill O’Reilly said to Trump in a February interview.

“There are a lot of killers,” Trump whatabouted. “We’ve got a lot of killers. What do you think — our country’s so innocent?”

“That’s exactly the kind of argument that Russian propagandists have used for years to justify some of Putin’s most brutal policies,” wrote Michael McFaul, former ambassador to Russia during the Obama administration.

“Moral relativism — ‘whataboutism’ — has always been a favorite weapon of illiberal regimes,” Russian chessmaster and activist Garry Kasparov told the Columbia Journalism Review in March. “For a U.S. president to employ it against his own country is tragic.”


don't be Soviet.
Irvine511 is offline  
Old 08-25-2017, 10:39 AM   #1088
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
AEON's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: California
Posts: 4,052
Local Time: 11:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by nbelcik View Post
Because white people aren't systematically oppressed and don't face oppression in any way
Then what is your solution? We remove whites and just see if it all works out? The anti-white rhetoric sounds dangerously close to the antisemitism of the 1920's - there is a race that governs everything from job applications, bank loans, school boards, and the press...and ((they)) always look out for each other first. ((They)) are evil and must be removed.
AEON is offline  
Old 08-25-2017, 10:44 AM   #1089
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 33,467
Local Time: 02:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AEON View Post
Then what is your solution? We remove whites and just see if it all works out? The anti-white rhetoric sounds dangerously close to the antisemitism of the 1920's - there is a race that governs everything from job applications, bank loans, school boards, and the press...and ((they)) always look out for each other first. ((They)) are evil and must be removed.

who has said this and where? you are making things up out of thin air.
Irvine511 is offline  
Old 08-25-2017, 10:47 AM   #1090
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
AEON's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: California
Posts: 4,052
Local Time: 11:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by anitram View Post
You keep telling yourself that when this entire administration goes down the dumpster and you run away as quickly from them as Republicans ran away from Bush..
You can keep hoping that will happen - as the Republicans take over more and more seats, governerships.

The Left only has the inner-cities - the uber rich and the very poor. The election of Trump signaled the end of the Democrats blue collar support (a traditional voting base). And you will soon be losing the inner-cities too, as people realize the Democrats aren't investing in those poor communities, just lining their own pocketbooks. Throw in some voter ID laws - the Democrats will have to either change or die (as a party, not as people...just to be clear)
AEON is offline  
Old 08-25-2017, 10:55 AM   #1091
Blue Crack Addict
 
anitram's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: NY
Posts: 18,918
Local Time: 02:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AEON View Post

The Left only has the inner-cities - the uber rich and the very poor. The election of Trump signaled the end of the Democrats blue collar support (a traditional voting base). And you will soon be losing the inner-cities too, as people realize the Democrats aren't investing in those poor communities, just lining their own pocketbooks. Throw in some voter ID laws - the Democrats will have to either change or die (as a party, not as people...just to be clear)
Did you forget the part where more people actually voted for Hillary Clinton? Pretty cocky, innit?

I'm sure with your enlightened post-racial leader, the inner cities can't wait to vote for Republicans.

And very honest of you to admit that you are in favour of using voter ID laws to suppress the minority/poor vote.
anitram is offline  
Old 08-25-2017, 11:00 AM   #1092
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
AEON's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: California
Posts: 4,052
Local Time: 11:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irvine511 View Post
don't be Soviet.
Are you suggesting that moral relativism is a Conservative trait? I thought the basic complaint against Conservatives is that they try to push their morality onto others. That seems to me the opposite of moral relativism.

And what about all the what abouts? Both sides use what abouts. That's what it's about.
AEON is offline  
Old 08-25-2017, 11:05 AM   #1093
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 33,467
Local Time: 02:55 AM
US Politics II

Quote:
Originally Posted by AEON View Post
Are you suggesting that moral relativism is a Conservative trait? I thought the basic complaint against Conservatives is that they try to push their morality onto others. That seems to me the opposite of moral relativism.



And what about all the what abouts? Both sides use what abouts. That's what it's about.


It sure is now. It may have its roots in 1960s counter culture, but it's all yours today.

You're the person who was for "traditional marriage" and you voted for a thrice married serial adulterer and admitted sexual assaulter who raped his first wife, bragged about the size of his genitalia, talks about women's menstrul cycles, bragged about his premhsnt for "barely legal" women, thinks his daughter is hot, and likely paid for god knows how many abortions.
Irvine511 is offline  
Old 08-25-2017, 11:08 AM   #1094
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
AEON's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: California
Posts: 4,052
Local Time: 11:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by anitram View Post
Did you forget the part where more people actually voted for Hillary Clinton? Pretty cocky, innit?

I'm sure with your enlightened post-racial leader, the inner cities can't wait to vote for Republicans.

And very honest of you to admit that you are in favour of using voter ID laws to suppress the minority/poor vote.
California put Hillary's final vote count over the top (it is one HUGE liberal state - Republicans don't vote because it's wasted in an all or nothing electoral college state). We will see how that plays out after Voter ID laws. But we don't elect by a national tally - maybe we should. I 'm open to the idea. If this last election was a simple national tally, both candidates would have run a different campaign. And more Republicans would have voted in the traditionally "lost" states.

And how in any logical way is requiring an ID to vote a form of suppression? We certainly require IDs for far less important things than voting. One person = one vote....part of the foundation of modern civilization.
AEON is offline  
Old 08-25-2017, 11:12 AM   #1095
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
AEON's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: California
Posts: 4,052
Local Time: 11:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irvine511 View Post
It sure is now. It may have its roots in 1960s counter culture, but it's all yours today.

You're the person who was for "traditional marriage" and you voted for a thrice married serial adulterer and admitted sexual assaulter who raped his first wife, bragged about the size of his genitalia, talks about women's menstrul cycles, bragged about his premhsnt for "barely legal" women, thinks his daughter is hot, and likely paid for god knows how many abortions.
So, then why does the Left have problem with him?
AEON is offline  
Old 08-25-2017, 11:24 AM   #1096
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
AEON's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: California
Posts: 4,052
Local Time: 11:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by corianderstem View Post
Sure, but why the need to say "yeah, but others did it too"? We are generally talking about the US and societal issues here.

Mongolians conquering other lands doesn't have much to do with the conversation. But Europeans, and the European slave trade, have the history that helped get us to where we are today, for better or worse.
The Arabs attacked, conquered, and enslaved much of Europe...that European slave trade? It seems that would need to be included in your uniquely targeted "whites only" history.

Yes, the United States had slaves (in the South). They had a war (fought mostly by white men) that ended slavery in the US. The good side won! And it had white men on it! How do THEY not count as a positive? Why are only the "bad" whites targeted as examples?
AEON is offline  
Old 08-25-2017, 11:34 AM   #1097
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 33,467
Local Time: 02:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AEON View Post
So, then why does the Left have problem with him?

for all those reasons and so many more.

the question is why DON'T you have a problem with Trump.
Irvine511 is offline  
Old 08-25-2017, 11:35 AM   #1098
Vocal parasite
 
Axver's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: 1853
Posts: 152,977
Local Time: 04:55 PM
I seriously don't know why Interference lets fascists and fellow-travellers with fascism have this as a platform, however feeble a one it might be.
__________________
"Mediocrity is never so dangerous as when it is dressed up as sincerity." - Søren Kierkegaard

Ian McCulloch the U2 fan:
"Who buys U2 records anyway? It's just music for plumbers and bricklayers. Bono, what a slob. You'd think with all that climbing about he does, he'd look real fit and that. But he's real fat, y'know. Reminds me of a soddin' mountain goat."
"And as for Bono, he needs a colostomy bag for his mouth."

U2gigs: The most comprehensive U2 setlist database!
Gig pictures | Blog
Axver is offline  
Old 08-25-2017, 11:45 AM   #1099
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 33,467
Local Time: 02:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Axver View Post
I seriously don't know why Interference lets fascists and fellow-travellers with fascism have this as a platform, however feeble a one it might be.

arguments with the fringe discredits them to the mainstream. sunlight being the best disinfectant and all.
Irvine511 is offline  
Old 08-25-2017, 11:47 AM   #1100
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
AEON's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: California
Posts: 4,052
Local Time: 11:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irvine511 View Post
for all those reasons and so many more.

the question is why DON'T you have a problem with Trump.
I actually do have a problem with him. The one thing I cannot grasp is how both parties continually give us crap choices.
__________________

AEON is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:55 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com
×