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Old 08-23-2017, 07:56 PM   #901
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2. Cracks me up when people say the Antifa are out to do this or that...they don't exist. There is no "Antifa...southern chapter. Please send dues." Anyone can don a uniform of anti-fascists and go out in the streets. Some are doing so to fight fascism. Some are doing so to break shit. The Antifa member #4 in Berkeley is not member #4 in Charlottesville...there is no set of rules or characteristics. So quit referring to them as a group that is aligned with the Democrats when they aren't even a group. It's more an idea.

there is an organised Antifa group here
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Old 08-23-2017, 08:57 PM   #902
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There's a principle called the paradox of tolerance that states that a tolerant society should be intolerant of intolerance because if intolerant people gain power than a tolerant society ceases to exist. This paradox naturally leads to the question of how far do we go in combatting intolerance. I for one, am perfectly fine with violence being used against Nazis. Nazi and white supremacist ideology explicitly advocates violence and if they gain power they will use violence against the marginalized. Better to stop them before they gain power. If violence had been used against the Nazi Party in the 1920s and early 1930s, they might not have gained power and the horrors of the Holocaust would not have happened.
Agreed. I'm fairly certain even fucking Hitler said this himself. Also note how contemporary alt-right figures react when confronted ie. Richard Spencer's being punched affected him, made him consider bodyguards and so on.

Fascists want space and a platform. Unchallenged. They want to enter that 'rational' discussion.

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There were numerous reports from Charlottesville that antifa groups were protecting protestors from the white nationalist/supremacist/Nazi thugs. Cornell West, among others, said he owed his life to them that day.
This is definitely part of the purpose of antifa, to protect the vulnerable. In many European countries they aim to safeguard minorities (see Red Warriors in 1980s France).

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yeah i read about that too... they were trying to protect the clergy, but the clergy asked them to respect their wishes for non-violence and stand back, and the antifa guys respectfully stepped back but were very worried, and then a whole crowd of nazis started to charge at the clergy armed with batons, and it would have been a bloodbath, and the antifa protesters stepped in quickly, went running at the nazis and broke their charge on the clergy - definitely saved them from a beating!

i respect these kids a lot
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that's not meant to be how it works - they're not really meant to incite violence, or use violence for the sake of it

they go there ready to jump in and defend when the nazi thugs kick off, to fight back - the fachos don't understand logic and rational discussion, so they need a strong message telling them how vile and unacceptable they are - sometimes things are so evil you need to get angry about them
Seconded. Any sort of violence is usually self defence here.
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Old 08-23-2017, 10:02 PM   #903
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I don't trust anythign Cornell West has to say. The guy is a blowhard.

If it's true though then that's a great thing antifa did to protect people. We don't know for sure though.

I prefer my information to come from FAKE NEWS
Professor West is often a very thoughtful, insightful man, someone steeped in Afro-American history, theology, a person who particularly respects ecumenical religious people and of course secular humanists. I thought he was a bit too tough on President Obama, but I understand where he (CW) was coming from.

The professor, and several other people of faith were there to be arrested at the demo, but the police stood back, and the protesters surrounded them. They were saved by anrtifa, and the anarchists.

I know ppl who know him, and met him a few decades ago.

You can go to Democracy Now and read Amy Goodwins interview about Charlottesville.
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Old 08-23-2017, 10:22 PM   #904
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there is an organised Antifa group here
Was rushing through stuff (running out if charge on tablet) so I missed that you described the incident.

Well of course you have an antifa group over there, you're in France right next to Germany who have anti Nazi action type laws . Which makes is sense, considering!
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Old 08-23-2017, 10:31 PM   #905
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nbelcik yes, I saw a piece/graphic on fb that highlighted that philosopher who talked about the "tolerance paradox". Thanks for bringing it up .

WAAZ thanks for your Phoenix report. 3 1/2 more years of this!?!!

Hopefully Mr Mueller & co.........
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Old 08-24-2017, 12:25 AM   #906
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I for one, am perfectly fine with violence being used against Nazis. Nazi and white supremacist ideology explicitly advocates violence and if they gain power they will use violence against the marginalized.
Well, according to this logic - you are perfectly fine with using violence to stop everything from the BLM to ANTIFA to Islam. White Supremacist groups are not the only ones out there promoting violence (if they are promoting violence these days - it seems most of the violence is acted ON them, and not BY them)
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Old 08-24-2017, 01:43 AM   #907
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Well, according to this logic - you are perfectly fine with using violence to stop everything from the BLM to ANTIFA to Islam. White Supremacist groups are not the only ones out there promoting violence (if they are promoting violence these days - it seems most of the violence is acted ON them, and not BY them)


BLM doesn't advocate violence and Antifa only endorses violence against Nazis, who, contrary to your claim, routinely use violence. We literally had a white supremacist murder someone in my hometown last week. And look at the amount of terrorist attacks perpetrated by right-wing terrorists in the US, which is greater than the amount perpetrated by Islamic terrorists. Not to mention that when Nazis controlled a state, 11 million people were killed in a genocide and millions more in a war. That is what Antifa is trying to prevent and why they use violence.

It's why I feel violence against Nazis and white supremacists is justified. It's because those groups advocate violence and if they were to gain power violence against marginalized groups would occur. Look at it as a form of self-defense.
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Old 08-24-2017, 05:27 AM   #908
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Well, according to this logic - you are perfectly fine with using violence to stop everything from the BLM to ANTIFA to Islam. White Supremacist groups are not the only ones out there promoting violence (if they are promoting violence these days - it seems most of the violence is acted ON them, and not BY them)
That's not what he said. Now you're putting words in his mouth by including other organizations/movements/religions. Maybe it is good to look up the following:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox
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Old 08-24-2017, 05:46 AM   #909
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White Supremacist groups are not the only ones out there promoting violence (if they are promoting violence these days - it seems most of the violence is acted ON them, and not BY them)
Yeah, you really should start a support group for poor White Supremacists who suffer from the consequences of having been brutally attacked
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Old 08-24-2017, 06:23 AM   #910
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White Supremacist groups are not the only ones out there promoting violence (if they are promoting violence these days - it seems most of the violence is acted ON them, and not BY them)
how can you even
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Old 08-24-2017, 06:24 AM   #911
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Well, according to this logic - you are perfectly fine with using violence to stop everything from the BLM to ANTIFA to Islam. White Supremacist groups are not the only ones out there promoting violence (if they are promoting violence these days - it seems most of the violence is acted ON them, and not BY them)


You are smarter than this.
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Old 08-24-2017, 06:49 AM   #912
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He's just picking up from where Oreganoropa left off?
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Old 08-24-2017, 07:12 AM   #913
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You are smarter than this.
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Old 08-24-2017, 07:20 AM   #914
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how can you even
Well... Electoral-vote.com
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When asked which racial group is most discriminated against, 45% of Trump voters said it was whites, 17% said Native Americans, 16% said blacks, and 5% said Latinos. That flies in the face of reality, but Trump seems to understand how his base thinks. When asked which religious group faces the most discrimination in America, 54% of Trump voters say it is Christians, 22% say Muslims, and 12% say Jews. The strong view of much of Trump's base that the victims in society are white Christians means that his comments that "many sides" were to blame for the violence in Charlottesville aren't going to hurt him. This is what they believe, too.
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Old 08-24-2017, 08:17 AM   #915
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Everyone really should read Devil's Bargain. It's eye opening.
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Old 08-24-2017, 08:22 AM   #916
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(if they are promoting violence these days - it seems most of the violence is acted ON them, and not BY them)



Did you actually watch any video from Charlottesville? During the rally at UVA on Friday, the Unite the Right white supremacist mob literally surrounded a small group of protestors and then began beating them. This was clearly shown on film. On Saturday, a white supremacist intentionally rammed his car into a crowd of protestors, killing one woman and injuring dozens. Not to mention the countless other clashes of violence that took place.

To look at these events and then imply that it's the white supremacists who were somehow the victims of the lions share of violence is mind-blowing.
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Old 08-24-2017, 09:11 AM   #917
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ugh

clearly they want the freedom to be bigots and feel persecuted when they get called out for it - or it could be some kind of "end times" persecution complex thing, seeing as many evangelicals seem to think they're living in the end times right now and believe Trump will herald in the apocalypse

seriously though, they wouldn't know what discrimination or persecution was if it bit them on the ass
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Old 08-24-2017, 11:04 AM   #918
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Did you actually watch any video from Charlottesville? During the rally at UVA on Friday, the Unite the Right white supremacist mob literally surrounded a small group of protestors and then began beating them. This was clearly shown on film. On Saturday, a white supremacist intentionally rammed his car into a crowd of protestors, killing one woman and injuring dozens. Not to mention the countless other clashes of violence that took place.

To look at these events and then imply that it's the white supremacists who were somehow the victims of the lions share of violence is mind-blowing.
We will see what the trial brings to light about the car ramming. If it murder, then it is murder. Obviously unacceptable . From the footage I've seen - it doesn't seem the car came out of nowhere...like the Muslim suicide vans. However, the white nationalists and those protesting the removal of the statue, had a right to march peacefully. This is a basic right in our society. It was ANTIFA that came in, overcame the police barriers, and engaged the marchers with rocks, sticks, and spit (plenty of footage of that around the Internet)

Had ANTIFA ignored the parade (because the neo- Nazis and KKK have been marching for decades with little fanfare) - these marchers would made local news and that's it. Instead - they attacked and caused a riot - giving the white nationalists WAY more press and coverage than they ever could have hoped for...

In America - you cannot suppress free speech without consequence. Bad ideas will simple fade out if you let them. It is only when we use violence (or the law) to prohibit free speech, do we extend the life of bad ideas.

ANTIFA - dressed like ISIS and pulling down statues, are the Brown Shirts of today.
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Old 08-24-2017, 11:09 AM   #919
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I'm really glad this is being published.

Perhaps now we will finally have people on the left of Trump stop insisting that we have to reach out to these deplorables (kind word for them), and try to understand them and their economic woes. Utter 100% bullshit and I've said it from the beginning. His base are racists who are used to privilege and therefore to them equality looks like persecution.

Forget about them. The best you can hope is that through time and attrition their next generations are less racist and more integrated into a progressive and global society.

In the meantime concentrate on those millions who don't tend to vote at all and may be the very small % of the squishy middle, but keep in mind that even those blowhards voted for the racist-in-chief over a woman who sent e-mails. No coddling them.
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Old 08-24-2017, 11:11 AM   #920
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Had ANTIFA ignored the parade (because the neo- Nazis and KKK have been marching for decades with little fanfare) -
That's before they had a racist in the White House supporting them.

Let's not pretend that these are normal times.

These people are beyond deplorable. But let's all the rest of us stay home while they march with torches screaming obscenities openly armed, their numbers and prominence increasing due to becoming an acceptable wing of your ruling party. Sorry, some of us are from Europe, unlike you, we know where these things tend to go.
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