US Politics II

[Irvine511]

Or those support (supported) traditional marriage, enforcement of immigration laws, against Obamacare, favor moderate gun control, oppose late term abortion...

The current discussion about these protests is just another example of this forum's intolerance. Is it really that much fun to post something and everyone agree with you? I think that's boring....

actually, i think a lot of those issues were well discussed in here.

i debated traditional marriage since at least 2005, and my own thoughts evolved from domestic partnership as a good compromise to feeling that only legal equality was acceptable. that issue is a great example of FYM at it's best.

sure, there are more liberals in here because it's a U2 forum -- they are well known SJWs.

 

[anitram]

The current discussion about these protests is just another example of this forum's intolerance.

Has your president come out and said "White supremacists and nazis are repulsive and repugnant and antithetical to everything I believe. If you happen to be one of them and you are misguided into supporting me, let me make myself clear - I do not want your support, I reject your support and all you stand for. I do not want you to vote for me, and I will continue to enact policies contrary to your interests."

No?

OK, then there is really no "discussion" to be had about these protests. History will judge you all harshly for this, sort of like the passive Germans who sat idly by in the 30s. I'm sure they wanted to "discuss" both sides of Kristallnacht too.

 

[AEON]

Are you really trying to add and support for right supremacists with those topics?

No, my point was this place hasn't been "friendly" to any Conservative POV. Eventually - the Conservatives leave because it simply gets annoying. Sometimes, I come back here hoping that perhaps - things have changed. We are all a little older, hopefully a little wiser....

I'm not defending the white supremacist POV, only their right to exist and to march and write books...etc. Also, I think that today most argue for white nationalism vs white supremacy. Meaning - they accept the premise that race exists and that whites have a right to be a movement based on race. If all races look out for their own interest, then why would we not allow whites to do the same? To me - this seems acceptable.

 

[Irvine511]

I thought I did , I don't think those are examples of racism any more than you could pull ANY random politician and claim racism. George Wallace and the other Democrats of the past - yes, overt racism. Those examples you posted are not examples of racism - they are too vague.

do you think you're the best arbiter of what is and what isn't racist?

George Wallace and the other Democrats of the past - yes, overt racism.

right. Southern Democrats. who are the Trump voters of today. don't get it twisted.

 

[BVS]

I thought I did , I don't think those are examples of racism any more than you could pull ANY random politician and claim racism. George Wallace and the other Democrats of the past - yes, overt racism. Those examples you posted are not examples of racism - they are too vague.

Straight from the playbook, is there a meme about how the Democratic Party started the KKK next?

Let's remain in 2017, shall we? So in 2017 it takes calling someone a slur to be racist, correct? Let's get this definition out of the way.

 

[Irvine511]

If all races look out for their own interest, then why would we not allow whites to do the same? To me - this seems acceptable.

people look out for their best interests on the basis of race?

i can agree that people look to prevent discrimination on the basis of race, against themselves and others who may share their race or be of non-majority races ... but you should really think about what you've just said here.

 

[BVS]

Also, I think that today most argue for white nationalism vs white supremacy. Meaning - they accept the premise that race exists and that whites have a right to be a movement based on race. If all races look out for their own interest, then why would we not allow whites to do the same? To me - this seems acceptable.

See, now we're getting somewhere. So, do you Aeon subscribe to white nationalism?

 

[AEON]

Has your president come out and said "White supremacists and nazis are repulsive and repugnant and antithetical to everything I believe. If you happen to be one of them and you are misguided into supporting me, let me make myself clear - I do not want your support, I reject your support and all you stand for. I do not want you to vote for me, and I will continue to enact policies contrary to your interests."
.

well....he did say this:

I just met with FBI Director Christopher Wray and Attorney General Jeff Sessions. The Department of Justice has opened a civil rights investigation into the deadly car attack that killed one innocent American and wounded 20 others. To anyone who acted criminally in this weekend’s racist violence, you will be held fully accountable. Justice will be delivered.

As I said on Saturday, we condemn in the strongest possible terms this egregious display of hatred, bigotry and violence. It has no place in America. And as I have said many times before, no matter the color of our skin, we all live under the same laws, we all salute the same great flag, and we are all made by the same almighty God. We must love each other, show affection for each other, and unite together in condemnation of hatred, bigotry and violence. We must rediscover the bonds of love and loyalty that bring us together as Americans.

Racism is evil. And those who cause violence in its name are criminals and thugs, including the KKK, neo Nazis, white supremacists and other hate groups that are repugnant to everything we hold dear as Americans. We are a nation founded on the truth that all of us are created equal. We are equal in the eyes of our Creator. We are equal under the law. And we are equal under our Constitution. Those who spread violence in the name of bigotry strike at the very core of America.

Source: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...p-remarks-charlottesville-violence/565330001/

 

[anitram]

well....he did say this:

Then he said a lot of things after that including:

You have some very bad people in that group, but you also had people that were very fine people on both sides.

Do you believe that "very fine people" would march alongside white men holding torches screaming "Jews will not replace us" and "blood and soil"?

Also, let's not forget that when directly asked if he supports white nationalists, he refused to answer and instead ranted about George Washington and Thomas Jefferson.

I can't believe you think white nationalists are acceptable. My God, what century am I living in?

 

[AEON]

do you think you're the best arbiter of what is and what isn't racist?

.

Who is? The word "racism" is barely one hundred years old.

 

[Irvine511]

Who is? The word "racism" is barely one hundred years old.

People who experience it on a regular basis?

 

[BVS]

Who is? The word "racism" is barely one hundred years old.

As is "Nazi", is that why we're having such issues with the definition? This makes no sense.

Come on guyz, these are new words just invented, racism doesn't really exist.

 

[AEON]

Then he said a lot of things after that including:



Do you believe that "very fine people" would march alongside white men holding torches screaming "Jews will not replace us" and "blood and soil"?

There were multiple parades. And each parade was smaller than a local 4th of July parade.

Also, let's not forget that when directly asked if he supports white nationalists, he refused to answer and instead ranted about George Washington and Thomas Jefferson.

I can't believe you think white nationalists are acceptable. My God, what century am I living in?

I find their existence acceptable. If you go down the path of which groups can exist and which ones can't - then who is the tyrant?

 

[AEON]

People who experience it on a regular basis?

Isn't that the entire premise of the white nationalist movement?

 

[Irvine511]

Isn't that the entire premise of the white nationalist movement?

That white people are discriminated against on the basis of race?

 

[AEON]

Then he said a lot of things after that including:



Do you believe that "very fine people" would march alongside white men holding torches screaming "Jews will not replace us" and "blood and soil"?

Also, let's not forget that when directly asked if he supports white nationalists, he refused to answer and instead ranted about George Washington and Thomas Jefferson.

I can't believe you think white nationalists are acceptable. My God, what century am I living in?

Wait - you said Trump didn't condemn the neo-Nazis and the KKK - then I give you a TRANSCRIPT of him actually condemning them and you completely ignore it. At least admit that he did in fact condemn them.

 

[anitram]

Wait - you said Trump didn't condemn the neo-Nazis and the KKK - then I give you a TRANSCRIPT of him actually condemning them and you completely ignore it. At least admit that he did in fact condemn them.

I didn't ignore it. I said he said a lot more things afterwards. In my view, he READ a prepared statement that he didn't believe in, then the next day the real Trump revealed himself and I choose to take his remarks on the Tuesday at face value.

If he had said nothing after the Monday statement which you posted, I would have thought his initial "many sides, many sides" response of the weekend was inappropriate but would have left it at that.

He is the one who shat all over that transcripted statement. I don't believe one word of what he said in that transcript, not because I have a vivid imagination but because he said the total opposite the next day.

You're the one ignoring what happened after the prepared statement was read.

 

[BVS]

There were multiple parades. And each parade was smaller than a local 4th of July parade.

Well, not exactly true, but even yet let's not fall into this rabbit hole of sweeping under the rug because it wasn't as big as Trump's record breaking inauguration

I was following this for at least a month leading up to. This was a well organized gathering. This was several hate groups that talked about putting aside their differences to #unitetheright

They purposely stated to lay low on Friday, they bragged of which media outlets were following who, they goaded each other leading up to, and talked about how now we're emboldened and have an ally. They believed this was going to be an awakening. This was not some small mom and pop, hey what are you doing this weekend gathering.

 

[AEON]

See, now we're getting somewhere. So, do you Aeon subscribe to white nationalism?

No, I do not. But I do want to understand how people get to this point. They make some decent points, but I do not agree with their conclusions. I do read some of their literature and it's not entirely whacky. And tearing down statues only adds validity to their concerns. Now the David Duke's can say, "See! I told you! And Mt. Rushmore is next...then the Lincoln memorial...then FDR! Then the names of your towns..."

Yeah - I think the Left and arbitrarily applied political correctness have given fuel to their once tiny movement.

 

[AEON]

i debated traditional marriage since at least 2005, and my own thoughts evolved from domestic partnership as a good compromise to feeling that only legal equality was acceptable. that issue is a great example of FYM at it's best.

On this - I agree. Those were some good debates and my views evolved as well.

 

[anitram]

They make some decent points,

Such as?

I do read some of their literature and it's not entirely whacky.

Such as?

Yeah - I think the Left and arbitrarily applied political correctness have given fuel to their once tiny movement.

Political correctness is responsible for the neo-Nazi movement growing in the US? I thought you Republicans were all about personal responsibility. None of these racist assholes in the Vice video can be blamed, after all, they were goaded into their racism by those of us oppressing them with Happy Holidays in December. You do realize that very analogous things have been said by the Nazis about the Jews? That the Jews "keeping to themselves" and "being greedy money lenders" fueled the Nazi movement. It was reprehensible then and is equally as reprehensible now.

I honestly find your views to be really, really sad more than anything. Makes me sad that we've learned nothing from history's mistakes.

 

[BVS]

No, I do not. But I do want to understand how people get to this point. They make some decent points, but I do not agree with their conclusions. I do read some of their literature and it's not entirely whacky. And tearing down statues only adds validity to their concerns. Now the David Duke's can say, "See! I told you! And Mt. Rushmore is next...then the Lincoln memorial...then FDR! Then the names of your towns..."



Yeah - I think the Left and arbitrarily applied political correctness have given fuel to their once tiny movement.

Lincoln, FDR, etc. they accomplished things, they attributed to our society.

Confederate soldier monuments celebrate a losing side that fought for something abhorrent. This moral equivalence is absolutely ridiculous. Can you imagine if history was different and going to a school, or walking in a park that is named after someone who fought for the idea that YOU should not be educated, YOU cannot vote, YOU are not considered human?

 

[AEON]

I didn't ignore it. I said he said a lot more things afterwards. In my view, he READ a prepared statement that he didn't believe in, then the next day the real Trump revealed himself and I choose to take his remarks on the Tuesday at face value.

If he had said nothing after the Monday statement which you posted, I would have thought his initial "many sides, many sides" response of the weekend was inappropriate but would have left it at that.

He is the one who shat all over that transcripted statement. I don't believe one word of what he said in that transcript, not because I have a vivid imagination but because he said the total opposite the next day.

You're the one ignoring what happened after the prepared statement was read.

I haven't ignored it. The whole discussion the last several pages has been about it either directly or indirectly. Both sides were to blame for the chaos. One man is to blame for the murder.

 

[AEON]

Lincoln, FDR, etc. they accomplished things, they attributed to our society.

Confederate soldier monuments celebrate a losing side that fought for something abhorrent. This moral equivalence is absolutely ridiculous. Can you imagine if history was different and going to a school, or walking in a park that is named after someone who fought for the idea that YOU should not be educated, YOU cannot vote, YOU are not considered human?

I concede - I think it's strange they exist (with the exception of the National Park battlefields - they really do give context there). Then again, I'm not a Southerner who had relatives who fought in the war. (I'm a Northerner that had relatives fight in the war).

However, the timing is strange. Why this mass movement to remove these statues now?

 

[BVS]

I concede - I think it's strange they exist (with the exception of the National Park battlefields - they really do give context there). Then again, I'm not a Southerner who had relatives who fought in the war. (I'm a Northerner that had relatives fight in the war).



However, the timing is strange. Why this mass movement to remove these statues now?

I'm glad you agree, it's always been weird to me, and I live here. I think there's a big difference in a memorial for the lives lost and a celebration of the confederacy.

I think it's been a long time coming, and having an emboldened hate group movement was just one of the elements in this powder keg.

 

[anitram]

Both sides were to blame for the chaos. One man is to blame for the murder.

No, both sides were not to blame.

One side supports this, just so that we are all clear.

The Vice documentary is perfectly clear on that.

Shame on anybody justifying this by blaming the other side. Just shame.

 

[AEON]

No, both sides were not to blame.

One side supports this, just so that we are all clear.

The Vice documentary is perfectly clear on that.

Shame on anybody justifying this by blaming the other side. Just shame.

Is that pic from Charlottesville? Man , that escalated quickly!

 

[anitram]

Again, I'm just sad that you sympathize with the neo-Nazis.

Not much left to say.

 

[AEON]

Again, I'm just sad that you sympathize with the neo-Nazis.

Not much left to say.

I sympathize with the right to have controversial thoughts, to publish controversial books, and to march in controversial parades. These rights end where violence begins. I hold that standard to both sides.

 

[BVS]

I sympathize with the right to have controversial thoughts, to publish controversial books, and to march in controversial parades. These rights end where violence begins. I hold that standard to both sides.

I support the idea that they have those rights, but never will I sympathize with them, and I hold that standard to all of fucking humanity.