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Old 08-04-2017, 05:52 PM   #461
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Yeah, that sounds about right. Certainly the only translation that would make any sort of sense.

I can't get over how, no matter who he's talking to or wherever he's speaking, he can't seem to go a single sentence without proclaiming himself or anything tied to him as "the greatest" in some form or another. He is truly the most narcissistic person I've ever seen in my entire life. It's incredible.
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Old 08-04-2017, 08:35 PM   #462
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I actually think he means he's really good at not allowing people in the country. Like, the best in the world at not letting people in the country.

He just speaks and writes like a 4th grader.
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Old 08-04-2017, 10:47 PM   #463
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Long post ahead, but it's hopefully informative for some of you wondering why the Turnbull and Trump transcript has been received the way it has by many in Australia.

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Originally Posted by namkcuR View Post
Seems like you guys hate your PM. I thought you hated your previous guy, Abbott, but maybe you hate this guy more.
Abbott was a vile individual - but you knew that he stood for what he said he stood for. He was, to use the words of one of his political idols, not for turning. It made him popular with the Liberal Party's strong far-right and socially conservative parliamentary factions, but unpopular with the electorate at large. The Libs were heading towards a huge thumping in 2016 when they blinked and restored Malcolm Turnbull to the leadership. They still got a belting, but managed to cling to power by a single seat. Turnbull had been the leader in opposition before Abbott rolled him and won power in 2013, and that period had actually made Turnbull look good to centrist and centre-left voters; one reason he was rolled was his commitment to action on climate change. He was a suave businessman who had played a role in the rise of the Internet in Australia in the nineties, and he came across on TV as a cool guy who would bring many swing voters back to the Libs from Labour.

But he sold his soul to be leader. He contorted himself in so many different ways to get enough votes from the party room to gain the leadership that he became beholden to various policies of the right-wing factions that he had previously argued against passionately, that are unpopular publicly, and that have very little chance of passing parliament (the government does not control the Senate, and has proven poor negotiators with the motley assortment of crossbench parties). Australia's paralysis on marriage equality, for example, is almost entirely down to this pact. Turnbull found himself bound to the socially conservative factions' demand for a national plebiscite, even though parliament won't pass legislation to enable a plebiscite, and if he dares to try to pass marriage equality through routine legislation, which is all that is required, he might lose the leadership through a party revolt.

He has done so many backflips, advanced so many policies he previously did not support, and in general been so gutless in the face of pressure from fringe nutters in his party, unwilling to stand up for the principles the public thought he had, that it's going to take something extraordinary for either he or the Libs to retain government at next year's election.

I am, of course, partisan. But I think this is a pretty fair overview of why Turnbull is unpopular, and especially so among the centre-left who previously thought of him as the "cool dad" of parliament.

And now for why the Trump thing has compounded this impression. Trust me, this transcript is damaging Turnbull in Australia much more than it's damaging Trump.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Irvine511 View Post
i particularly enjoyed this article:
Sorry, this article is very flawed and it accepts too much of Turnbull's comments at face value. Here are a few examples:

Quote:
Australia has a policy of refusing to accept refugees who arrive by boat. The reason, as Turnbull patiently attempts to explain several times, is that it believes giving refuge to people who arrive by boat would encourage smuggling and create unsafe passage with a high risk of deaths at sea.
Complete rot. The "deaths at sea" justification is ex post facto for a draconian anti-refugee policy that Trump is possibly correct to characterise as "worse" than his. I'll spare you the evolution of Australian policy towards asylum seekers, especially those who have come by boat, but the two major parties have been in a race to the bottom to outdo each other in severity and exclusion of so-called boat people since the 1990s. They believe this is a vote winner, especially in marginal seats such as those in western Sydney. These draconian policies made the voyage to Australia increasingly dangerous.

Inevitably there were tragic drownings at sea, which provoked a strong humanitarian response - especially when these involved large numbers of children. Instead of acknowledging that bipartisan policy had contributed to these sinkings, and seeking to stick the boot into the Rudd/Gillard Labour government (who were in power during some of the worst sinkings), the Liberals started selling their even-more-draconian policies as seeking to protect deaths at sea. This had never been part of the debate until the Libs feared that the drownings would need them to moderate their policy, which would be unacceptable to a large chunk of their base. Those who pointed to flaws in Liberal policy, or who wanted to admit refugees who arrive by boat, were no longer just bleeding heart lefties or national security ignoramuses; they were monsters who accepted children drowning. It was a trick to cast the Liberals as humanitarians when, in fact, the reason boat arrivals cause so much hysteria (out of all proportion with their tiny numbers) is because these people are predominantly Middle Eastern and/or Muslim.

Trump is, in fact, dead right when he says "What is the thing with boats? Why do you discriminate against boats? No, I know, they come from certain regions. I get it." This quote will be used relentlessly against Turnbull by his opponents, mark my words.

Quote:
He is unable to absorb Turnbull’s explanation that they are economic refugees, not from conflict zones
Here the author gives away their unfamiliarity with Australian political discourse. "Economic migrant" is a dogwhistle to say "these are not legitimate refugees, they are coming from comfortable lives abroad to steal your jobs". These people have been found to be refugees with a valid fear of persecution. That's why Australia won't send them home.

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Trump has completely failed to understand either that the refugees are not considered dangerous, or, again, that they are being held because of a categorical ban on ship-based refugee traffic.
Trump might not get this, but the important point here is that a ban on boat arrivals breaches the UN Refugee Convention. Australian politicians have been careful to side-step this (Labour are guilty too); whenever pressed on arrivals by air, they point to people-smuggling as the issue, trying to use that thin veneer as a defence that they are not in breach of the Convention.

Turnbull just exposed his own party's line as a lie - it is, simply, an irrational targeting of the means of arrival, regardless of whether those who arrive are terrorists or Nobel laureates. It's purely political: there is no fear in Australia of refugees who arrive by air, only of those who come by boat. And people are asking, with validity, why Turnbull is more frank with Trump than he is with the Australian people.
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Old 08-04-2017, 11:21 PM   #464
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good informative post, ax. lots of context and interesting background information. my opinion of turnbull has gone from "generally seems to suck" to "definitely really sucks".

it hardly means that trump looked any "better" than turnbull in this though. if anything it just means we heard the sound of two chimpanzees competing to see who can fling the biggest turd at the wall.
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Old 08-04-2017, 11:49 PM   #465
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Irvine511 View Post
there's a lot happening over here (grand juries!) but this has gotten some attention over here.

i particularly enjoyed this article:
I am finding the difference in reporting between US and Aus media to be pretty fascinating on this to say the least, anyone here in the centre or left of centre has been disgusted by Turnbull in this transcript - at some points it seems that even Trump of all people is shocked by our government's refugee policy. A lot of us think both leaders came off as bad as each other.

I think a lot of very Trump-critical US media seems to position anyone he has some sort of conflict with as a positive figure as a default (see here). Often this doesn't seem to take into account this figure's actual politics, as I've seen instances where Shinzo Abe's wife was celebrated for embarrassing Trump etc. even though Shinzo Abe is as far to the right as Trump himself is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by namkcuR View Post
Seems like you guys hate your PM. I thought you hated your previous guy, Abbott, but maybe you hate this guy more.
They both suck incredibly, but in mildly different ways. Abbott was an ultra conservative imbecile (not unlike Trump) who was openly callous towards the vulnerable whilst Turnbull is like a right wing Dem/moderate Republican who has no spine or any real convictions other than kowtowing to the far right of his party/inflicting more pain on the vulnerable (but in a more 'polite' manner than Abbott).
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Old 08-05-2017, 01:14 AM   #466
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveC View Post
good informative post, ax. lots of context and interesting background information. my opinion of turnbull has gone from "generally seems to suck" to "definitely really sucks".

it hardly means that trump looked any "better" than turnbull in this though. if anything it just means we heard the sound of two chimpanzees competing to see who can fling the biggest turd at the wall.
Cheers mate. Definitely agree with your characterisation there.

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Originally Posted by Vlad n U 2 View Post
Often this doesn't seem to take into account this figure's actual politics, as I've seen instances where Shinzo Abe's wife was celebrated for embarrassing Trump etc. even though Shinzo Abe is as far to the right as Trump himself is.
That was hilarious, and it seems she has more redeeming qualities than her husband, but oh man that was a total milkshake duck moment.
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Old 08-05-2017, 12:25 PM   #467
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I think the difference lies in that Turnbull sounds like a shady politician, which isn't shocking, whereas Trump sounds like a fucking imbecile, which I guess is also not shocking.

On second thought, nevermind
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Old 08-05-2017, 10:44 PM   #468
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Extremely well-put, Ax.

For my two cents, Trump is Trump. Like, I guess, Abbott, we know who Trump is and we know what he stands for and we know he doesn't kowtow or pussyfoot around. Whilst he is the most vile Western politician that I have ever known in my time being politically engaged, there is a weird respect I pay the man for at least having the strength of his own convictions.

When I began to get politically engaged, I admired Turnbull. He was very consistent on climate change and marriage equality, and was the nicest (for lack of a better word) of the Liberals. I had faith that we could reach a sensible discourse with him around - there's even an instagram post I did the night of the spill.

The reason that I said what I originally said boils down essentially to this part:

Quote:
Turnbull: Okay, I will explain why.

It is not because they are bad people. It is because in order to stop people smugglers, we had to deprive them of the product.
So we said if you try to come to Australia by boat, even if we think you are the best person in the world, even if you are a Nobel Prize-winning genius, we will not let you in.

Please, if we can agree to stick to the deal, you have complete discretion in terms of a security assessment. The numbers are not 2,000 but 1,250 to start. Basically, we are taking people from the previous administration that they were very keen on getting out of the United States. We will take more. We will take anyone that you want us to take. The only people that we do not take are people who come by boat. So we would rather take a not very attractive guy that help you out then to take a Nobel Peace Prize winner that comes by boat. That is the point.
It makes me sick to my fucking stomach. Forget diplomacy, forget all the bullshit, forget Trump being Trump. This is a man who is the prime minister of Australia flagrantly and openly admitting that he doesn't give a remote shit about the lives of 1250 people, this is a man openly admitting that all he wants is the veneer of a deal so that he can look good and strong, he doesn't give a flying fuck that the rest of the deal goes to shit, all he cares about is saving his own fucking face. It is utterly galling and completely sickening.

I've seen a lot of American commentary on this essentially commending Turnbull for "standing up" to Trump or whatever and it is making me so mad. He's not remotely standing up at all, he's acting like a fucking skittish cat. "Oh Trump, please just say you agree once, and then you can do whatever you want, please, please, please, just make me look good." It is fucking pathetic. You're all correct, Trump is a complete imbecile, but we already knew that. This is just the latest in a long line of examples and it doesn't remotely reflect badly on Trump, because what he said about shooting someone on fifth avenue has proved presciently correct.

That is not being "deferential" as has been used twice in this thread. That is a pissweak human completely betraying all his own convictions, the Australian people, so he can try and save his own fucking hide.

Sorry, I've worked up quite a head of steam, but it just infuriates me. I cannot wait to see go out on his fucking arse at the next election and I will soak up the joy for the two minutes before the realisation that we're stuck with a Labour government that will also only be interested in a veneer.
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Old 08-06-2017, 05:23 AM   #469
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I believe both of you guys. I really don't know anything about Australian politics so I'll take your word for it. What you both say makes a lot of sense anyway. About Trump though...

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Originally Posted by cobl04 View Post
Whilst he is the most vile Western politician that I have ever known in my time being politically engaged, there is a weird respect I pay the man for at least having the strength of his own convictions.
Are you kidding? I'm sorry for what's about to come, but I can work up a head of steam too.

The man has NO convictions. He was a New York Democrat(meaning socially liberal and fiscally in favor of whatever benefited the wealthy) until about ten minutes before he ran for President as a Republican.

He is on video stating emphatically, in the 90s, to be pro choice. Now he's pro-life? People's views can change but that's not what happened here.

The whole campaign he promises over and over that if he's elected healthcare will be better and cheaper for all those blue collar types who voted for him, then celebrated with Republicans from the House of Representatives after they passed their version of a bill that would be absolutely awful for those very blue collar types, and then spent that last two months begging Senate Republicans to do anything that had to do to pass their version of a bill that would be even worse for those blue collar types than the House version. Because he doesn't give a fuck. All he wants, ALL he wants with regards to healthcare, is for anything with the word 'repeal' in it to pass so he can go on TV, claim a win, and brag about how great he is. It doesn't matter that the bill, had it become law, would've probably done the opposite of what he said he'd do for those peoples' healthcare.

During the campaign, he says how great he's going to be for LGBT people, how much they're going to love him(which actually wasn't all that hard to believe since, like I said before, he's been a socially liberal Democrat for most of his adult life), and now he's trying to remove Transgender people from the military. And he's only doing it to get the social conservatives to cheer for him and to attempt to distract people from the Russia investigation.

He spends the whole campaign raging about Mexicans and how he's going to build the wall, and now is this transcript with the Mexican president, he admits to the guy that he doesn't actually care that much about the wall. Oh and by the way, apparently his rage against Mexico in general stems from a business deal he made with Mexican businessmen that went bad, after which he took them to court and didn't make out as well as he wanted. It seems that he allows personal grudges to dictate his worldview. Like how some suggest his hatred of Obama stems from when Obama made fun of him practically to his face during a White House Correspondents' Dinner.

He spends the whole campaign purporting to be the voice of the little guy and then assembles the wealthiest presidential cabinet ever, which is obviously what presidents who want to fight for the little guy do.

He claimed to be anti-interventionist but now he certainly seems like he'd go to war with North Korea if they went far enough.

Let's not forget that he used to be friendly with the Clintons. They were at his wedding to Melania, and he used to play golf with Bill. Now he's inciting chants of 'Lock her up', and on the campaign he got a number of Bill's mistresses on stage to throw shit at him.

I could go on. I don't mean to pick on you, but that triggered me. Convictions? You must be kidding.

Quote:
That is not being "deferential" as has been used twice in this thread. That is a pissweak human completely betraying all his own convictions, the Australian people, so he can try and save his own fucking hide.
You could say the exact same thing about Trump(minus the convictions part, because he has none). He is all ego, and everything he does is for his own good or that of his family.
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Old 08-06-2017, 11:59 AM   #470
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Part of what makes Trump so vile is that we don't know what he stands for, or if he has any true convictions. It's why it's so easy for him to lie about even the smallest things, or the most obvious of things.

That statement was mind boggling.
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Old 08-06-2017, 08:25 PM   #471
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Yes, good points Ruckman. Strength of his convictions was not correct. More that.... you know who/what he is (ie a snake), so when he does backflips or says all this outrageous shit, it's not that surprising. But points taken!
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Old 08-06-2017, 08:43 PM   #472
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Yes, good points Ruckman.
OMG after all these years I finally understand his username.
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Old 08-06-2017, 08:51 PM   #473
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I don't know what it means though, because it has a very specific meaning in Australian sport, but I don't know how else it could be used.
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Old 08-06-2017, 09:54 PM   #474
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LOL "understand" as in his username is his (likely) last name backwards.
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Old 08-06-2017, 10:01 PM   #475
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I don't even know what the Australian sport thing is. I had to look it up just now. I've never watched a second of Australian rules football in my life.

It's my surname. Upon registering, I was trying to think of something that wouldn't become outdated or whatever, and I just typed my surname backwards on a whim. I didn't know I'd still be posting here 13 years later or I may have gone with something else. I like it though.
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Old 08-06-2017, 10:02 PM   #476
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Originally Posted by corianderstem View Post
LOL "understand" as in his username is his (likely) last name backwards.
Winner.
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Old 08-06-2017, 11:51 PM   #477
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LOL "understand" as in his username is his (likely) last name backwards.
I meant I finally "get" his username. Get it? 😉
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Old 08-06-2017, 11:53 PM   #478
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I don't get BoMac.




(Well-played!)
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Old 08-06-2017, 11:59 PM   #479
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why the fuck would that be most likely?
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Old 08-07-2017, 12:32 AM   #480
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Originally Posted by namkcuR View Post
I don't even know what the Australian sport thing is. I had to look it up just now. I've never watched a second of Australian rules football in my life.
Time to sort that out. It's the best sport in the world.

Signed,
A New Zealander

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why the fuck would that be most likely?
Yeah, it's definitely an unusual last name. I hope he has mates called Fullforward, Tightheadprop, and Legspinner.
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