US Politics II

[BEAL]

I'm trying to be objective, but I don't know of one policy that this administration has proposed or passed that I can actually agree with.

Maybe the H1B Visa program as that does impact my line of work (IT/Software), as companies do take advantage of the cheap labor. The underlying issue though is that we don't have qualified US workers for jobs in IT.

Same thing with is Immigration bill. We don't have a influx of home grown talent to take these jobs. Or if we do, they're above taking a lot of the work that immigrants first take to get their footing in the country.

Sounds like the bill is dead as is right now

 

[namkcuR]

I shake my head at this push to limit legal immigration to high-skill workers.

The system as it is already kind of does that, what with how expensive it can be to get a green card legally and with how you have to have an existing connection in the country, either to family or a college or a business.

I mean, why do you think so many of the non-high-skill immigrants are here illegally?

This would just make the legal immigration system more difficult for people to penetrate than it already is and lead to more illegal immigrants for Trump to want to deport.

 

[BEAL]

Agree, and a few GOP congressmen have come out saying the same thing. Which is nice to see not EVERYONE is behind Trump on this.

Also, Stephen Miller really has the most punchable face in the WH

 

[Wide Awake n AZ]

On the one hand it is interesting to see statements like this coming from Republicans. On the other hand, Flake is up for re-election next year so it is likely also to cover his ass. And he voted in favour of taking away healthcare insurance from millions of people.

The thing with Flake, as one of his constituents, is that he is who he appears to be...always. I agree with almost none of his political decisions. But I understand where they come from...a strongly-held belief that government should not be a safety net. Again, I totally disagree. But unlike 99% of these people, Flake lives, eats, breathes, and sleeps his conscience, all the way down to not accepting/pursuing "pork" allocations for Arizona. He has been fiercely critical of Trump, the person, from the beginning, as many remember. Trump was going to "end" Flake, a blustering Donald told the world. Now, Flake will probably gain 10% here in Arizona, the land of Goldwater Republicans (fiercely independent, more Libertarian than GOP, fiscal conservatives. The immigration stuff has divided the local conservative base as businesses here exploit illegal labor as a regular practice. Lack of illegals who fled the shit storm of Sheriff Joe Arpaio going from someone who said "why would I arrest your gardener?" pre-collapse to a law-breaking "tough on immigration" icon, and a strong economy in Mexico, has left homebuilders in Arizona struggling). He is genuine and strong in his stance.

Again...I am almost diametrically opposed to Jeff Flake's political position. But he was in early on Trump hate, and this rings very, very authentic for those of us who have watched him grow in stature.

 

[Wide Awake n AZ]

I shake my head at this push to limit legal immigration to high-skill workers.

The system as it is already kind of does that, what with how expensive it can be to get a green card legally and with how you have to have an existing connection in the country, either to family or a college or a business.

I mean, why do you think so many of the non-high-skill immigrants are here illegally?

This would just make the legal immigration system more difficult for people to penetrate than it already is and lead to more illegal immigrants for Trump to want to deport.

Here in Arizona, the lack of unskilled illegal labor, or house-building illegal labor, is causing issues for the new build home market. Our state, or more specifically, Maricopa County's policing arm (and Pinal and idiot Babeu) under Joe Arpaio (convicted of contempt of court this week) chased many illegals back to Mexico. Where a thriving-for-Mexico economy has retained many of them, leaving swaths of the West Valley as ghost towns. This has impacted the housing market significantly.

There is a real call here in Arizona for some kind of solution to entice and protect Mexican labor.

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

Thanks for the backstory on Flake, Wide Awake. Good to learn more about him, and to hear that his disapproval of Trump isn't some "Johnny come lately" thing. I hope he inspires more Republican politicians to stick by their conscience when it comes to Trump.

Re: the illegal immigration issue, yeah, I hate that people never seem to stop to think about the valid, understandable reasons why some immigrants come here illegally. namkcuR explained some of the big reasons, and considering how some immigrants are fleeing situations in their home countries that are downright terrifying and dangerous. yeah, I totally get where they're not exactly going to have the time to sit around waiting for paperwork to go through to get legal clearance to come here. If I'm trying to get away from a war-torn nation or a place that's overrun by terrifying drug lords or whatever, then yes, I'm just going to grab my family and whatever necessities I can manage to grab and just get the hell out of there, and worry about the details later.

And then like you guys note, they come here and do utterly thankless jobs that nobody born and raised here want, and still get railroaded because people whine about how "they're taking our jobs" (while simultaneously calling them lazy moochers, no less).

I can even understand concerns about being able to properly accommodate a mass immigration, because there are issues that can come with that...but even then, that's less the fault of the immigrants themselves and more the fault of the country they're coming to that doesn't have plans in place to try and prepare for such situations.

But yeah, if they're contributing to society and not causing trouble, which is the case with the vast majority of them, then we should be doing our part to help them, whether they stay here or choose/are made to go back home. And even the ones that are causing trouble, there's far better ways to deal with them than the thuggish means people like Trump or Arpaio support. All that does is fuel the flames and cause even more chaos.

 

[Wide Awake n AZ]

Thank God Arpaio is done. We chipped away and chipped away, but he started off gathering the old people in Sun City by throwing them a bone with his "posse". And Maricopa County has a strong religious segment in the East Valley that are active and effective. As a state, we used to Ping-Pong back and forth between Republican and Democratic Governors, but Maricopa County, where Arpaio is from, was locked down. The abuse of people didn't ultimately do Arpaio in...the sheer cost of lawsuits against him eventually finished him. The people didn't want to pay for him anymore. The MCSO was barely insurable.

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

Yeah, I remember hearing about Arpaio a little here and there over the years. He definitely sounded like a total creep, and I'm glad that you guys don't have to put up with him anymore.

The abuse of people didn't ultimately do Arpaio in...the sheer cost of lawsuits against him eventually finished him. The people didn't want to pay for him anymore. The MCSO was barely insurable.

Ah, karma. Shame that the abuse wasn't enough to take him out, but yeah. Can't say I blame the people for feeling that way.

 

[Vlad n U 2]

Agree, and a few GOP congressmen have come out saying the same thing. Which is nice to see not EVERYONE is behind Trump on this.

Also, Stephen Miller really has the most punchable face in the WH

Having read about his history, he seems like an awful creep. I'd hope he's the next one who gets in a tangle and is kicked from the WH.

 

[corianderstem]

Wait - Stephen Miller is THIRTY?????

 

[Vlad n U 2]

Young/young-ish conservatives always seem to look and/or dress older than they actually are. An exception may be Alex Jones who looks like he's nearing 60 but is only in his early 40s.

 

[corianderstem]

Holy shit, I am the same age as Alex Jones. Even almost half a year older. WTF.

It's not even Miller's suits or receeding hairline - dude just looks like it's been a *hard* 30 years.

 

[Vlad n U 2]

Having reactionary politics will probably do that to you.

 

[anitram]

Stephen Miller is a troll of the highest caliber.

He also strikes me as that creepy guy who could never get a date but always blamed the women for it.

 

[BEAL]

I'm curious if this phenomenon will stop with Trump, or if we're about to enter a new era of "Facts don't matter"?

Trump literally lies about everything. Even the stupidest stuff. No one seems to care. So does that mean the next batch of candidates for office will employ the same tactics? Will it work?

Or do we go back to a more "normal" politician who may not tell the truth completely, instead spinning answers or pivoting. That's not great, but it's better than what we currently see.

 

[Danny Boy]

At least Trump has made it simple. I don't believe anything he or the White House staff says.

 

[Wide Awake n AZ]

I'm curious if this phenomenon will stop with Trump, or if we're about to enter a new era of "Facts don't matter"?

Trump literally lies about everything. Even the stupidest stuff. No one seems to care. So does that mean the next batch of candidates for office will employ the same tactics? Will it work?

Or do we go back to a more "normal" politician who may not tell the truth completely, instead spinning answers or pivoting. That's not great, but it's better than what we currently see.

Maybe I am an optimist, but I think this is the wake up call. Not for the sleeping 25% that support blindly on either side, or the other 10%-15% that have issues with a candidate but are going to ultimately vote platform over person, but for that middle 20% that swing every election. I think the idea that "anyone can be president. We need a business person who talks tough" that has been so pervasive in my country for too long has finally been put to rest in the eyes of the vacillating moderate/gooey center voter.

They wanted change. They wanted the swamp drained. They hated "entrenched politicians". They don't understand why things are like they are (outside obvious travesties like pork and dark money)...there is procedure and process for a reason. Government should not run at the speed of light...and the will of a single politician should never be served. But, more than anything, I think they learned that change isn't surface/image. Change is in philosophy. The Bernie Sanders model is real change the right way...whether you like his politics or not. I mean that kind of politician. Say Jeff Flake on the other side. You get what you see, they are proponents for a platform/ideology, and the other crap is noise.

I see a future for those people in national politics. Ideological warriors. For better or worse. Trump was not an Ideological Warrior. He is a shape shifter with no substance, a CEO of an inherited series of companies who has never been told what to do other than by his mentally abusive father. Monkey see, monkey do.

I really believe that is the shift we will see from this. It won't be super evident or obvious or accessible for most...just a mental turn away from the idea of talk and bluster carrying the day. People will focus more on issues, and the fight will still be bloody, but the cult of personality just took a hit. (I hope).

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

I'm curious if this phenomenon will stop with Trump, or if we're about to enter a new era of "Facts don't matter"?

Trump literally lies about everything. Even the stupidest stuff. No one seems to care. So does that mean the next batch of candidates for office will employ the same tactics? Will it work?

Or do we go back to a more "normal" politician who may not tell the truth completely, instead spinning answers or pivoting. That's not great, but it's better than what we currently see.

I've wondered about that, too. Like I've said before, I feel like all the debate over what the Democrats should do going forward to get their message out there has been largely ignoring the fact that they could put their message in the simplest, most sympathetic, most positive form imaginable, and there's still going to be people out there who won't support them because "liberal bias"/"lying mainstream media"/etc. And I do think the Democrats need to prepare for and learn to deal with that problem as well, and find ways to overcome it. Same with any Republicans who want to remain on the more moderate side of things, lest they be accused of being RINOs and whatnot by Trump's base.

That said, however, I love Wide Awake's optimistic take on where we go from here, and I really, really hope that becomes a reality going forward. It'd be so nice if Trump wound up being nothing more than a brief, embarrassing moment in our history.

 

[TheFox]

Grand Jury time! Trump and his family are going to jail!

 

[Irvine511]

The pee tape really is real, isn't it.

 

[BEAL]

Grand Jury time! Trump and his family are going to jail!

I don't get the connection between Grand Jury, and guilt

 

[DaveC]

I don't get the connection between Grand Jury, and guilt

this is the same poster that sees mushroom clouds every time kim jong un sneezes.

 

[Danny Boy]

The pee tape really is real, isn't it.

God, I hope so.

 

[TheFox]

this is the same poster that sees mushroom clouds every time kim jong un sneezes.

Booom

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

The further along we go on this, we keep checking off things the tin foil hat crowd have been tweeting about for months.

So while some of them (Mensch) may be coocoo birds, perhaps it's time that on this particular issue we start believing them.

 

[Vlad n U 2]

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...th-australian-prime-minister-malcolm-turnbull

Really interested to see what you guys make of this, it's a bit of a big thing over here.

 

[Danny Boy]

I've spent the last 20 minutes listening to an interview with Kellyanne Conway and I think my IQ dropped about 4 points.

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...th-australian-prime-minister-malcolm-turnbull

Really interested to see what you guys make of this, it's a bit of a big thing over here.

It proves that my theory that every Australian knows Greg Norman is correct.

It also proves that we have a boorish idiot in the White House, but most of us knew that already.

I especially liked this part...

Trump: Look, I do not know how you got them to sign a deal like this, but that is how they lost the election. They said I had no way to 270 and I got 306. That is why they lost the election, because of stupid deals like this. You have brokered many a stupid deal in business and I respect you, but I guarantee that you broke many a stupid deal. This is a stupid deal. This deal will make me look terrible.

and of course this...

Trump: What is the thing with boats? Why do you discriminate against boats? No, I know, they come from certain regions. I get it.

We're all gonna die

 

[cobl04]

So funny that you think it's an indictment on Trump. He comes out of this looking positively presidential compared to our utterly pathetic weakass piss stain cunt of a prime minister.

 

[Axver]

They both come out of it looking awful—Trump fucking calls himself the greatest person in the world—but Turnbull looks worse with his fawning and his admissions about Australian refugee policy that he would not have made in public.