US Politics

[BEAL]

Hey guys, this election should have show us college educated, science based/loving elitist liberals that feelings are what really matter.

If we weren't so smug in demanding evidence at every claim, every discussion maybe we would have won.

I hope we have learned our lesson

 

[Irvine511]

the two parties, they are not the same, nor have they stayed the same.

this article affirms my suspicions, and what i think the HRC electoral strategy actually was, and why she went with Kaine rather than more populist alternatives. we can second guess how good this actually was as a strategy, but it may have been 4 years too early.

The Beltway has a fetish.

Open almost any major newspaper in almost any week, and you’ll find a story set in a working-class community, opening with a vignette from a local diner or a failing factory. These stories wax nostalgic about Obama-Trump voters: those Americans who backed President Barack Obama in 2012 but supported Donald Trump in 2016. In the analysis, they are almost invariably oversimplified as white, working class and lacking a college education. And this same conversation also dominates discussion among top Democratic Party operatives, pollsters and some elected officials.

This focus isn’t exactly wrong: Yes, Democrats lost those voters in 2016, bigly. It’s one of the many reasons Hillary Clinton lost the White House (disclosure: I worked on her campaign). And yes, the future of the Democratic Party does depend, at least in part, on figuring out how to win some of them back. But the tunnel-vision focus on these Obama-Trump voters as the only path forward for the Democratic Party ignores a major opportunity. In the six months since the election, we’ve obsessed about Obama-Trump voters but completely ignored their inverse: the Romney-Clinton voters.

Who are they? Romney-Clinton voters are, generally speaking, college-educated suburban professionals: lawyers, doctors and businesspeople. They voted for Mitt Romney in 2012, but switched to Hillary Clinton in 2016. They abhor xenophobia, the alt-right and racists, but they also mostly socialize within their own race and they’re mostly white. They’re socially liberal but not obsessed with a political agenda. They value fiscal responsibility but also believe in investing in the future, especially education. They remain deeply worried about Trump’s qualifications, scared about his temperament and alienated by his misogyny and ties to extremists. For the first time in a long time, they’re willing to hear about and vote for Democrats.

For journalists and political operatives, these people are harder to romanticize. They lack the stirring, deeply ingrained Americana imagery of the Appalachian coal miner or the Rust Belt autoworker—a news story set against the backdrop of a paralegal’s research library or a suburban office park simply doesn’t feel as compelling.

But if you want to see the future of the Democratic Party—and if you want to understand how Democrats can win back a congressional majority—then it’s important that you pay attention to a group of voters who might cut a less evocative image than their Obama-Trump counterparts, but whose support of Democrats could cause the GOP to collapse.

Democrats’ Secret Weapon: Romney Voters - POLITICO Magazine

they sound like U2 fans

 

[BEAL]

No, Irvine.

The future is socialism and destroying the corrupt, greedy, and evil corporations.

 

[BEAL]

Why can't we have a mix of good ideas? If I was running, here would be my proposals. Feel free to shoot them down.

A mix of social and capitalistic qualities for governing.

Tax Corporations more than they are now (how about 60%)
Heavily Regulate Industries, Finance, Climate, Infrastructure
Heavily Invest in Technology, Clean Energy, AI, Smart Guns, etc
Drop Military Budget, Focus more on Technology, VA Care, and Foreign Aid
Simpler Tax Codes, with higher % paid by higher income (Say 500k for family, 250k for single...where the rates start to rise. They're higher for those who make millions)
Single Payer Healthcare -- Medicare for All
Decriminalize Weed
Soften sentencing for Drug Crimes
Invest in Rehabilitation versus Prison time
Free Community College
Lower Tuition for Universities
Incentives for Trade Programs
Universal Standard Income

Corporations, individuals can make as much fucking money as they want. Knowing they will be taxed, and if they don't like it, figure out ways to make more!!! We as a society need to start looking at society as a whole, versus the individual.

I don't want kids. I will never have kids. Yes, a part of me grimaces knowing that some of my tax dollars go towards a school that I will never have a use for as an adult. BUT, I went to public school, so odds are others like me helped pay for my way through. I am more upset that a huge portion of my tax dollars go towards military.

Providing people with the means to a decent education, exposure to technology, and less stress on families if health issues come up seems to me like it would make a happier society. Less anger. Less likely to go shoot up people because of a job loss, or just snapping.

There will always be groups of people who fall through the cracks. That abuse the system, or the system may not work perfectly for. All we can do is our best to try and help the most people, and when loopholes show themselves, we adjust.

But we won't.

Cause fucking coal jobs are more important than the fate of societies across the globe.

 

[BVS]

Part of Trump's appeal was his fu to the left, it wasn't his ideas. He had none. But in their attempt to raise their middle finger to the majority of the country they end up poking their own eyes. They don't have any ideas either, they can't think past their own nose or any further than tomorrow.

 

[Irvine511]

Really, this should be viewed as a political decision and taken in tandem with Trump mocking Germany and read as an indication that Steve Bannon and the white nationalists are back in control.

Someone has been leaking about Jared.

 

[Vlad n U 2]

A mix of social and capitalistic qualities for governing.

Also commonly known as social democracy.

 

[BEAL]

We are close tho, and we were moving at direction under Obama. Slowly.

Yes our politicians were more persuaded by lobbyists, but small changes were happening .

With Trump and GOP In charge, we're stuck in neutral at best

 

[BVS]

We are close tho, and we were moving at direction under Obama. Slowly.

Yes our politicians were more persuaded by lobbyists, but small changes were happening .

With Trump and GOP In charge, we're stuck in neutral at best

No, I think we're in reverse right now, desperately trying to get back to their fake memories of the 50s.

 

[Bluer White]

This election was determined by swing voters, as most elections are,
I know you voted for her in November as most in here that voted did.

I have no idea who I will vote for in 2020, ill have to wait and how things are in 2020, and the candidates.

I think most voters in here only vote one side always.
I happen to be a real swing voter. In the last 5 Presidental elections I have voted Dem 4 times and GOP 1.
Bizarre that all the vitrial and hostility thrown at me in here is coming from people that need votes from people like me to win and have benefited from people like me in 4 of the last 5 elections.

Please do not interrupt the Tribal Council with this kind of talk

 

[Diemen]

It would be nice for someone who was a big Hillary supporter in the past and voted Democrat in the previous 4 elections to explain what it was about Trump that swung their vote. What did Trump do or say that made you think he was the best choice? That he (and the Republican Party along with him) would better look out for your interests than Hillary and the Democrats?

 

[dazzledbylight]

Very true, and the same can be said for racist and xenophobic views as well. I do think recent events have made some people with those views feel much more emboldened to be more open and overt in expressing them again, though.

Yeah, a lot of that stuff is more subtle. I do agree that trump, bannon etc have emboldened, "given permission" to be more verbally violent, and even more physically violent.

And to your previous post, yeah, I get it. It is very frustrating (and upsetting etc)
it's hard not to raise your voice at times!

I was in Times Square today looking at The World Science Festival's secondary site displays. As I went by an area with seats, tables for eating some guy sat down with a T-shirt saying "keep calm and carry guns".

It took some out of me not to say something like " you can go back to your open carry State with that attitude. "
But since I tend towards consideration and he was spending $ in my home town , I let it go.

Thanks for the article, irving . Screen-grabbed for reading at home.

digitize> My Texan friend tells me good things about Austin. Course, I've read many positive articles stuff, too.

OK, homeward bound.

 

[anitram]

It would be nice for someone who was a big Hillary supporter in the past and voted Democrat in the previous 4 elections to explain what it was about Trump that swung their vote. What did Trump do or say that made you think he was the best choice? That he (and the Republican Party along with him) would better look out for your interests than Hillary and the Democrats?

Hillary was untrustworthy, sent e-mails and had a lying husband.

 

[BEAL]

And she gave favors to the Saudis through her foundation.

 

[Diemen]

Hillary was untrustworthy, sent e-mails and had a lying husband.

But seriously, what in Trump's message, "vision" and conduct would sway a supposedly informed voter from strong Hillary support and relatively consistent Democrat support to pulling the lever on Trump and this incarnation of the Republican party?

Deep? Care to elaborate?

 

[bono_212]

Please do not interrupt the Tribal Council with this kind of talk

I'm so disappointed that while you were seemingly level-headed in the weeks leading up to the election, you have been nothing but sniping since, with no desire to engage in conversation. I've legit tried to talk to you about your opinions, but this is the only level of discourse you seem interested in. Why no desire to engage?

 

[Danny Boy]

I don't suppose any Trump supporters care that he is sullying the reputation of the United States of America on the world stage, transparently exploiting tragedy to push his own misguided xenophobic agenda. Embarrassing.

 

[BEAL]

There is nothing to defend. That's why no one from the right even hangs out here.

Or if they do they spout bullshit of triangles and child sex conspiracies.

At best you could call this administration a mess.

And just wait for when a real disaster hits, natural or terrorist. We are not prepared, staffed, or well led to get through it

 

[anitram]

I don't suppose any Trump supporters care that he is sullying the reputation of the United States of America on the world stage, transparently exploiting tragedy to push his own misguided xenophobic agenda. Embarrassing.

They don't care because their mindset is that the US has the biggest dick around and therefore what the hell does it matter what some inconsequential liberal wasteland like Scandinavia thinks about them.

 

[Bluer White]

I'm so disappointed that while you were seemingly level-headed in the weeks leading up to the election, you have been nothing but sniping since, with no desire to engage in conversation. I've legit tried to talk to you about your opinions, but this is the only level of discourse you seem interested in. Why no desire to engage?

212, sincerely appreciate your comments above and the thoughts you bring to the table Truth is I've participated very, very little in the election/Administration threads since about the middle of last summer.

I still read here regularly because it's habit, still entertains, and I do learn something about a particular segment of U.S. voters. Feel like it's important to do that. Also like hearing takes from posters outside the U.S. But as far as free and healthy conversation goes, the forum hasn't been a place for that lately. Compared to when I started hanging around Interference anyway.

 

[Bluer White]

And that was great timing there

 

[TheFox]

Trumps tweets were shameful today.

 

[digitize]

Trumps tweets were shameful today.

It's still absolutely shocking that this man is the President of the United States. I cannot possibly imagine someone less capable of handling this job.

Living on a prayer that there's no major crisis requiring presidential response while he's in office.

 

[LuckyNumber7]

It's still absolutely shocking that this man is the President of the United States. I cannot possibly imagine someone less capable of handling this job.

Living on a prayer that there's no major crisis requiring presidential response while he's in office.

Yeah, half a year later and I still can't believe it either. Lucky for me, I've been out of the country the entire time.

 

[corianderstem]

I am so fucking disheartened by all of this right now. It just sucks so very, very much. All of it.

 

[Pearl]

They don't care because their mindset is that the US has the biggest dick around and therefore what the hell does it matter what some inconsequential liberal wasteland like Scandinavia thinks about them.

This is true. My immediate family are staunch Trump supporters, and they see the US as this super great country that can do no wrong. I really don't know where they get that sentiment, but I'm sure it is based on ignorance, prejudice, and blind pride. It's like they are terrified to even consider otherwise, as if their very existence depends on this weird patriotism.

I also find it odd that they think the US is better than all other countries, when they can hardly find the US or any other country on the global map!

 

[BEAL]

https://youtu.be/5fXkzQFHiTw

Know I've posted a few Sam Harris podcast, but feel this is relevant to this discussion.

He speaks with David Frum, who's a conservative but couldn't stomach to vote for Trump despite having the same concerns about Clinton as we've heard over and over and over.

Sam and David discuss the different views of what trump supporters are thinking or could be thinking to justify.

Sam went out on twitter and retrieved questions from Trumpsters and they debate the merit

 

[BEAL]

And I want to make the point too, and I think it's in the podcast.

Those of us that are so against Trump, that want him out of office badly aren't doing so out of some hope that Clinton will magically be placed.

We are wanting Mike Pence in charge. Which thanks to Trump makes me want to puke, but he's so much better than Donald even with the extremist religious concerns that we know Pence carries

 

[BVS]

https://youtu.be/5fXkzQFHiTw

Know I've posted a few Sam Harris podcast, but feel this is relevant to this discussion.

He speaks with David Frum, who's a conservative but couldn't stomach to vote for Trump despite having the same concerns about Clinton as we've heard over and over and over.

Sam and David discuss the different views of what trump supporters are thinking or could be thinking to justify.

Sam went out on twitter and retrieved questions from Trumpsters and they debate the merit

This one was actually pretty good, and I got a lot out of it. The last one was just god awful, I have no issue with his stance on religion, but his grasp and facts on religion are so erroneous and arrogantly misguided.

 

[BEAL]

While I don't want to go off topic, I wouldn't consider Sam's view on religion to be off. That last podcast he was reading word for word from the ISIS magazine.

But it is his interpretation of religions and that can be debated.

Back to Trump, what I took from that is you had two very different people on the political spectrum who are just flabbergasted with how Trump has gotten to where he is, aside from Sam saying that Trump may end up being the greatest con man we've ever seen.

Also found it interesting that both he and Frum feel there is a shift in society that now we support a person or party over country versus country first.