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Old 06-05-2017, 05:18 PM   #621
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https://youtu.be/5fXkzQFHiTw

Know I've posted a few Sam Harris podcast, but feel this is relevant to this discussion.

He speaks with David Frum, who's a conservative but couldn't stomach to vote for Trump despite having the same concerns about Clinton as we've heard over and over and over.

Sam and David discuss the different views of what trump supporters are thinking or could be thinking to justify.

Sam went out on twitter and retrieved questions from Trumpsters and they debate the merit
Just finished listening to it. It really didn't tell me anything that I didn't already know or expect.

I get my prospective of Trump supporters from my immediate family, their friends and people I went to school with that I now - for some reason - follow on Facebook.

Basically, from what I'm seeing and hearing, they are paranoid about another terror attack. And an Islamic terror attack, not some white supremacist/anti-government attack much like the Oklahoma City bombing. When it comes to latter, they're seemingly dumbfounded that it could happen again.

Also, they are terrified that the America they grew up with it slipping away. From old-fashioned patriotism, to the thought of socialism coming to America, to even same-sex marriage and the decline of the White population - America is changing, and they don't want it to change. Voting for Trump was them fighting back.
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Old 06-05-2017, 05:40 PM   #622
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A grown man? How about a man-child? There's something psychologically wrong with him, aside from his narcissism.

And Trump supporters say he's their "man", the epitome of the masculine American. That speaks volumes about them.


Well, by age only...

They can keep their tiny scraped knuckled masculinity.
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Old 06-05-2017, 05:44 PM   #623
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The Democrats/Left blew it after 2008. They were too proud of themselves for electing a black man into the White House that they basically gave up on every other election at that point.
I don't buy this at all. What do you mean they gave up?



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Where the GOP built up their grassroots with the Tea Party and started taking over local, state, and eventually federal level. They gerrymandered the fuck out of this country, and so while the population definitely seems to appear a little more socially liberal, we can't put those type of people into office.



The GOP wins, even as they're dying out.
Well the GOP have been gerrymandering for decades. I think the left has to respond to Trump in a very similar way, they have to create a grassroots uprising similar to the tea party, because the left needs an influx of young candidates taking the lead. My fear is that, like the tea party, it will just bring to surface the worst of the left. The bmp(s) if you will.
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Old 06-05-2017, 05:48 PM   #624
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The Dems seemed to have tunnel vision, only focused on the big prize, the White House. I shouldn't say they gave up, they didn't even try.

The GOP were able to mobilize at the grass roots level, which got them into state houses, and eventually congress.

Democrats don't seem to turn out for the State and Federal level. And I do know that voter ID laws do play a role in that, as does Gerrymandering. But the Gerrymandering tipped towards GOP because they took the power away and now can't give it up.

It's why the Dems seem to only be about moral victories now. "Hey, we only lost by 7 points when Trump carried this state by 30!!!"
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Old 06-05-2017, 07:14 PM   #625
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The idea that if the Democrats moved left enough they'd suddenly start winning is pretty delusional given the demographics of America, the electoral college and general cultural and social attitudes.

I also consider myself to be liberal but universal income is a terrible idea in my view.
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Old 06-05-2017, 07:35 PM   #626
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Universal/single payer health care is something that I think will be achievable in my lifetime. And I think it could be a winning issue for the Dems by 2020.

College, on the other hand, while it might be a good idea, full taxpayer funded tuition seems impossible -- the very people who feel most screwed over by the system and see Trump as a Molotov cocktail aren't going to vote to give free college to middle class kids. That may need an Obamacare type hybrid solution, but I can't see it yet.

Healthcare, however, is used by literally everyone. We start there.
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Old 06-05-2017, 07:45 PM   #627
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College doesn't need to be free. It needs to change. Not everyone needs to go to college after high school. Some can go right to work, apprenticeships, trade schools, etc.
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Old 06-05-2017, 08:02 PM   #628
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College doesn't need to be free. It needs to change. Not everyone needs to go to college after high school. Some can go right to work, apprenticeships, trade schools, etc.


That's what they do in the UK.

Though judging the way things are in the US, a college degree is becoming increasingly mandatory.
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Old 06-05-2017, 08:04 PM   #629
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When it started becoming super expensive, everyone needed to go. Funny how that worked.
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Old 06-05-2017, 08:05 PM   #630
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The idea that if the Democrats moved left enough they'd suddenly start winning is pretty delusional given the demographics of America, the electoral college and general cultural and social attitudes.

I also consider myself to be liberal but universal income is a terrible idea in my view.


This

Plus, I haven't met one single supporter of universal income demonstrate that they ACTUALLY understand how it would work in this country.
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Old 06-05-2017, 08:08 PM   #631
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College/university isn't free in socialist Canada either. Will run you less, probably not too dissimilar from in-state tuition at public university in US. And professional schools like law school or med school are >$20K/year even here...
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Old 06-05-2017, 08:09 PM   #632
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Oh, Trump Org is rolling out a new budget hotel chain with an American theme. Cause of course they are.
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Old 06-05-2017, 08:30 PM   #633
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And... Trump doubles down on his personal insulting attacks on the London mayor.
Which May does not condemn.
Trump's a bully. The leaders of UK, Australia, Canada, and to a lesser extent NZ need to publicly stand up to him. Condemn his comments. Make threatening noises about alliances.
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Old 06-05-2017, 10:48 PM   #634
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universal basic income is going to be a necessity much sooner than we all think.

this day 10 years ago there was no such thing as an iphone and social media was something only cool college kids knew about. think about how different the world is going to be in 2027.

climate change is far enough off until shit starts really getting real. we're just as fucked if we don't start seriously working on these inbound cultural and social tsunamis sooner rather than later.
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Old 06-06-2017, 03:54 AM   #635
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And... Trump doubles down on his personal insulting attacks on the London mayor.

Which May does not condemn.

Trump's a bully. The leaders of UK, Australia, Canada, and to a lesser extent NZ need to publicly stand up to him. Condemn his comments. Make threatening noises about alliances.


Such motions are shortsighted. The last thing we need is to create longterm political fallout between Five Eyes and Seven Eyes countries, because Donald Trump is a clown.

Fuck Brexit, fuck Scottish independence, fuck Marine Le Pen, and fuck Donald Trump. Stronger together, period.

Donald Trump is not an excuse to have rational leaders stoop to his level and become tough guys/gals.
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Old 06-06-2017, 04:18 AM   #636
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Such motions are shortsighted. The last thing we need is to create longterm political fallout between Five Eyes and Seven Eyes countries, because Donald Trump is a clown.

Fuck Brexit, fuck Scottish independence, fuck Marine Le Pen, and fuck Donald Trump. Stronger together, period.

Donald Trump is not an excuse to have rational leaders stoop to his level and become tough guys/gals.
i would disagree - Trump is dangerous and a threat to international security

plus, i don't see it as stooping to his level - more like an adult saying "no" to a spoilt brat of a child
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Old 06-06-2017, 04:27 AM   #637
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universal basic income is going to be a necessity much sooner than we all think.


agree - automated jobs aren't ever coming back... we need to find a solution somehow... here, there has been talk on taxing robots, to make up for the lost tax revenue from workers' social contributions... we need to readjust to the times... guess this has been happening since the industrial revolution... in my village alone, thirty-forty years ago a single farm used to support 6 families, there used to be 4 cafes, a full school, shops, two farriers, but now the school is closed, there are no cafes or shops (or farriers lol), three-quarters of the houses are empty, or holiday homes just used a few weeks a year, and the farm has only one farmer and his machines...
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Old 06-06-2017, 04:33 AM   #638
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College, on the other hand, while it might be a good idea, full taxpayer funded tuition seems impossible -- the very people who feel most screwed over by the system and see Trump as a Molotov cocktail aren't going to vote to give free college to middle class kids. That may need an Obamacare type hybrid solution, but I can't see it yet.
it works here - what i love about France is every child has the right to free education - university tuition fees are state funded, and there are means-tested grants and housing allowance, so all children, whatever their background, can have the chance to study

of course, there are also private schools with astronomical fees, but those are only for the rich

but basically, any child can have the chance to become a doctor or lawyer here (or anything they want really) if they have the ability and work hard

it also used to be like that in the UK back in the day when i was a student, but now, i believe the UK has become one of the most expensive places in the world to study - it's actually catastrophic for young people... Jeremy Corbyn is promising to return to free university education, and cancel existing student debts - i really hope he wins!

eta:

it is actually hardest for parents who are middle earners who are just above the cut-off limit, whose children aren't eligible for maintenance grants (although their tuition fees at state schools are still paid and they are still eligible for housing allowance towards their rent) - it's just accepted here that parents in this position support their kids with top-up towards rent and living costs thru their studies - can be tough for parents (as i know as have 2 in higher education right now - ouch) but it's just how it is here, and at least the kids don't end up saddled with masses of debt... so basically, free education here isn't about helping "middle class kids" who already have a parental safety net - it's really the poor who can benefit the most, and i think that's fantastic
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Old 06-06-2017, 05:41 AM   #639
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it works here - what i love about France is every child has the right to free education - university tuition fees are state funded, and there are means-tested grants and housing allowance, so all children, whatever their background, can have the chance to study
if that happens in US some libertarian crowds are gonna go nuts
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Old 06-06-2017, 06:18 AM   #640
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i would disagree - Trump is dangerous and a threat to international security

plus, i don't see it as stooping to his level - more like an adult saying "no" to a spoilt brat of a child


My words are in regards to "making threatening remarks about alliances." Condemning Donald Trump's words is totally different than that.

If you think that's a good idea, I entirely disagree.
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