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Old 05-31-2017, 02:33 PM   #501
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So to sum up:

"I don't want to be here, so fuck you, I'm taking everyone out with me when I covfefe."
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Old 05-31-2017, 03:14 PM   #502
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He only wants to be there to make $.
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Old 05-31-2017, 03:41 PM   #503
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I think it might be partly true, that in some countries politicians are going to rethink. Australia, of all places, has a government that seems to be taking after Trump and the GOP.
The general trend, however, is the opposite. In many countries, if not most, it is now accepted by both sides, with dissenting voices only from the fringe (like AFD here in Germany), that climate change is real, and that the goals of the Paris Agreement are the least each country can do to try and alleviate the consequences.
Countries like China and India also have real reason to push for it. One, China especially has heavily invested in clean energies over the past couple years. And the other point is, due to current pollution levels, many cities are forced to halt production for certain industries for two months in order for the air to clean.
For example, I recently bought something through a kickstarter campaign and the manufacturer said during the Chinese company that produced the glass component had to delay production by two months because they were just scheduled to shut down their factories.
This, of course, poses a great economic cost, which in turn means it becomes cheaper to move to clean energy.
That's why reactions to the US announcement are also largely mixed, with many experts saying it's of course not good news, but it doesn't necessarily mean the end of anything. In the end, it seems, the only country losing are the US, if the rest of the world is going to go through with pursuing the goals of the Paris Agreement (which, I think, is the bigger issue anyway, the US in or out).
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Old 05-31-2017, 03:49 PM   #504
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And if the EU and China see Trump's nonsense as a chance to forge ahead into global leadership roles on this, contrasting themselves to Trump, well that's a positive I guess
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Old 05-31-2017, 04:11 PM   #505
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Because of Republican opposition, the US never ratified the Kyoto Protocol (Canada withdrew). Still, it's been ratified by almost all nations and has largely been a success.
The truth is, as has been pointed out earlier, more money is to be made by investing in green economies than to continue to exploit fossil fuels and other resources.
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Old 05-31-2017, 04:14 PM   #506
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The thing that baffles me is that people who oppose climate change for whatever reason all have families. This will have no impact on their lives, but it will affect their children, grandchildren and so on. Don't they care about the quality of life future generations of their families will have? It's mind boggling.
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Old 05-31-2017, 04:21 PM   #507
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The thing that baffles me is that people who oppose climate change for whatever reason all have families. This will have no impact on their lives, but it will affect their children, grandchildren and so on. Don't they care about the quality of life future generations of their families will have? It's mind boggling.
Politics is a team sport and climate change runs contrary to their team's dogma. I really think it's as simple as that. They aren't concerned because they've been told it's just the natural climate cycle.
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Old 05-31-2017, 04:40 PM   #508
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The thing that baffles me is that people who oppose climate change for whatever reason all have families. This will have no impact on their lives, but it will affect their children, grandchildren and so on. Don't they care about the quality of life future generations of their families will have? It's mind boggling.
Much the same as them trying to defend Russia taking over the US government.
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Old 05-31-2017, 05:26 PM   #509
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It's all gone tribal.

I don't know how to combat this.
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Old 05-31-2017, 05:45 PM   #510
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The thing that baffles me is that people who oppose climate change for whatever reason all have families. This will have no impact on their lives, but it will affect their children, grandchildren and so on. Don't they care about the quality of life future generations of their families will have? It's mind boggling.
It comes down to trust, and our society really lacks it when it comes to science and government. We've had one party shitting all over science findings, how government is against the people, etc etc

And here we are. Now, does everything that comes from a scientist or government finding have to be considered 100% the truth? No. But until a method is created that works better than our scientific method, it's the best we've got.

So people hear about these elitist, highly educated (i.e. LIBERAL) science reports about doom and gloom decades from now, and most people cannot fathom it. Will it be as disastrous as al Gore says it will be? Or will it maybe make the climate better???

I think that's where the hang up is for most people with children deny it, because there may be a chance it's wrong.

Why it's a chance worth taking? I have no fucking clue
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Old 05-31-2017, 06:08 PM   #511
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But the flip side is, all these Trump voters, the ones who really don't believe in climate change, science, equality etc, how shafted and disillusioned are they going to feel if an Obama 2 becomes president in 4 years time?
That seems to be the central issue here. Over the last 70 years the US has slowly split into two ideologically incompatible cultural nations that can't unite under one leader unless there's a bigger external threat. ie war.
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Old 05-31-2017, 06:12 PM   #512
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That really is the issue. We are so deeply divided it doesn't matter. I don't think there is one person who exists in this world who both sides of this country could be OK with.
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Old 05-31-2017, 06:37 PM   #513
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Because of Republican opposition, the US never ratified the Kyoto Protocol (Canada withdrew). Still, it's been ratified by almost all nations and has largely been a success.
The truth is, as has been pointed out earlier, more money is to be made by investing in green economies than to continue to exploit fossil fuels and other resources.


Yes, but that requires forward thinking, they are entirely too lazy for that.

They want to wear helmets with flashlights, hold a pick ax, come home to their wives frying chicken, and watch Archie Bunker.
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Old 05-31-2017, 06:47 PM   #514
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They want to wear helmets with flashlights, hold a pick ax, come home to their wives frying chicken, and watch Archie Bunker.
I'm not sure (most of) those who used to work in the coal industry but are now out of a job want to return mining coal. It isn't the most pleasant (and healthy) work after all. But they do want to have a job, one which gives them their feeling of self-worth back.
I read, a while back, that there are now more jobs in the clean energy industry than there ever were in coal. But I suspect that those jobs aren't in the former coal-mining regions and/or require skills former miners don't have.
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Old 05-31-2017, 06:59 PM   #515
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I'm not sure (most of) those who used to work in the coal industry but are now out of a job want to return mining coal. It isn't the most pleasant (and healthy) work after all. But they do want to have a job, one which gives them their feeling of self-worth back.

I read, a while back, that there are now more jobs in the clean energy industry than there ever were in coal. But I suspect that those jobs aren't in the former coal-mining regions and/or require skills former miners don't have.


I get that. But bringing coal back was a cornerstone of his campaign. They don't seem to understand the idea of forward thinking and job training programs that would have helped everyone in the long run. Nor do they understand that voting for coal while cutting back on healthcare kills them.
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Old 05-31-2017, 07:16 PM   #516
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But coal fits the narrative. Hard men, and it is men, doing hard gritty work, rolling up their sleeves, sweat on grimy skin, smoke-belching power plants. Cause that's his demographic, those are the people he was targeting. MAGA and just, GRRRRR
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Old 05-31-2017, 08:10 PM   #517
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I believe that climate change is very real, human-borne, and humanity's greatest existential crisis at the moment. As such, I believe in robust government action to fight it.

That said, I think we should be a little more charitable to those who do not share this view. I disagree with them, and wish they'd change their minds, very strongly. But a lot of why the opposition exists comes down to what I perceive to be real incentives. There's a reason why the world hasn't switched en masse to renewable energy and electric cars powered by it - economically, if you take out externalities, fossil fuels are still really cheaper. A switch to alternative energy somebody has to pay for. Even if that somebody is the government, it still has a result of lower consumption in the short run. This is especially true in an environment when oil is cheap and natural gas (main source of modern electric power) is really, really cheap.

This is magnified in areas whose economies depend heavily on fossil fuels - coal country and oil/gas territory. I see it a lot - my parents are heavily dependent on oil/gas, and so are many of my friends and their families. Hell, although I work for a diversified management consulting firm, even a substantial amount of our revenue comes from oil/gas, and I've done work for companies in that space.

These are not valid reasons to believe that climate change is fake. But fighting climate change entails real costs - real human costs - real reductions in standards of living for a non-trivial number of people. You could say that such people are being selfish and thinking too short term in their views, and you wouldn't be wrong. But I think it's worth a little more grace than to call them just stupid or ignorant or fact-deniers or whatever. I'd hazard a guess that that sort of language contributes to the rise of Trump types.
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Old 05-31-2017, 11:09 PM   #518
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Oh my god they actually played covfefe off as if it was purposeful and had a meaning.

The White House refuses to tell the truth about utterly meaningless things.
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Old 05-31-2017, 11:28 PM   #519
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That said, I think we should be a little more charitable to those who do not share this view.


I can be charitable to those that just don't get it, but I cannot be charitable to those that purposefully bury their heads in the sand and choose ideology over fact. Orangeoropa, is a perfect example; he knew science, he chose party. The horse, he once labeled science as socialism. No, I will NOT be charitable to this type of ignorance.
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Old 05-31-2017, 11:50 PM   #520
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well my dad believes that "climate change is human made and we got to reduce CO2 output" thing is a conspiracy what should i do
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