US considers 'under God' pledge

[theSoulfulMofo]

Hey... I guess the next thing to go is "In God We Trust" on our greenbacks...

Maybe into something like "In Mammon We Lust"

 

[AcrobatMan]

atleast america is considering whether or not to remove it .. thats a big deal in my opinion how many countries in the world would have a debate on that .

anything else i wanted to say , melon and fizz said it already

acrobatman

ps: when i say america , i mean USA.. its obvious but just in case

 

[FizzingWhizzbees]

If it were one nation under Jesus Christ, I'm sure you would get a different result. The term is just "God". Define it as you will.

If you don't believe in God, the phrase is meaningless.

That's no doubt an interesting comment on the whole debate, however I was responding directly to the comments made by Soul Always.

Originally posted by Soul Always
I say "under God" should remain. I have my reasons. If we take God out of everything soon God can't be counted on when we really need him.

That seems to be a reference to a particular God, not to "god" as defined by the person reciting the pledge. So...what of the people who believe in a different god or indeed no god at all?

 

[Dreadsox]

I say...let's tie up any non believer and burn them at the stake.

 

[Angela Harlem]

mmm burned steak

i still think its silly students are "required" to say it. God or no God.

 

[AcrobatMan]

mmm burned steak

i still think its silly students are "required" to say it. God or no God.

illogical, unscientific and un-secular ( if thats a word)..

it wont exactly be theocratic or secular..something in between

 

[meegannie]

I want some A1 sauce.

I wonder how much 'allegiance' really means. The citizenship ceremony in the UK includes an oath of allegiance: "I, [name], swear by Almighty God that, on becoming a British citizen, I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth the Second, Her Heirs and Successors according to law" and the new pledge of allegiance: "I will give my loyalty to the United Kingdom and respect its rights and freedoms. I will uphold its democratic values. I will observe its laws faithfully and fulfil my duties and obligations as a British citizen."

So if you're a dual citizen, you owe allegiance to both countries.

 

[Angela Harlem]

I slightly disagree with you Meggie, but agree with you at the same time. An oath of allegiance when undertaking citizenship seems (to me) to be more to be pledging to undertake your life NOW as an [insert country] citizen, by agreeing that from hereon in you begin this phase of your life as a Brit .... This makes no sense. lol. I guess its like wedding vows. You say them at the start, but dont have to repeat them everyday, you live by them instead. Its verbalised on the first day, then reflected in your actions every day after that.
But you probably have way more of an understanding of an oath than I ever will so just ignore me

 

[Soul Always]

And what of the millions of US citizens who don't believe in the same God as you?

Well, it's a cold hard fact that you don't have to believe in God in order for there to actually be a God, and for that God to be YOUR God. And, what does it hurt to have "another person's God" on your side, anyways? It seems to me that we should accept all the help we can get.

 

[Soul Always]

If it were one nation under Jesus Christ, I'm sure you would get a different result. The term is just "God". Define it as you will.

If you don't believe in God, the phrase is meaningless.

It may be meaningless TO YOU, but it's not meaningless to God.

 

[AcrobatMan]

It may be meaningless TO YOU, but it's not meaningless to God.

oh well !!! i respect your views but i still think mine is better

 

[FizzingWhizzbees]

Well, it's a cold hard fact that you don't have to believe in God in order for there to actually be a God, and for that God to be YOUR God. And, what does it hurt to have "another person's God" on your side, anyways? It seems to me that we should accept all the help we can get.

So you'd be quite happy to pray to Allah on the basis that "it doesn't hurt have another person's God on your side"?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to be of the opinion that the "under God" refers to the Christian God? In that case, why should an athiest or someone of a religion other than Christianity be expected to recite a pledge using the name of a God they don't believe in?

 

[joyfulgirl]

And, what does it hurt to have "another person's God" on your side, anyways? It seems to me that we should accept all the help we can get.

Because for some people the very idea of God is as ludicrous as the Easter Bunny.

 

[DrTeeth]

One nation, under the Easter Bunny?

 

[joyfulgirl]

One nation, under the Easter Bunny?

Why not? I mean, just because no one's ever seen the Easter Bunny doesn't mean it doesn't exist. And we need all the help we can get, right?

 

[meegannie]

And all the chocolate I can eat.

 

[nbcrusader]

i still think its silly students are "required" to say it. God or no God.

Students are not required to recite the pledge.

Many kids don't.

 

[pax]

That was also my understanding. I had a friend in high school who was a Jehovah's Witness and he never said it, and he never got any flak about it.

 

[Dreadsox]

Having had a Jehovah's Witness or two in my room....no one required them to recite the pledge.

They were instructed by their parents out of respect to stand during the pledge, but no one is required to say it.

 

[Angela Harlem]

My misunderstanding. I thought Martha once said while there was no 'rule' as such it should be said, there was an element of expectation it should be recited.

*add: without a reason such as religion etc to not recite it, I mean.

 

[U2luv]

I have to just say I think this is ridiculous. The pledge of allegiance has been this way for how many hundreds of years???? And because one guy gets a wild hair up his ass, now they want to change it. Stupid, in my opinion.

It's actually only had the words "under God" in it since 1954.

*edited to add... Oops, should have read the whole thread before posting.

 

[BVS]

I acutally went through a phase of not saying the pledge when I was in high school, not because of "under God" but because I was struggling with the aspect of pledging "alligiance" to a flag. I struggled with the idea of where does an alligiance to a flag stand with my moral and spiritual beliefs. I'm still not sure. Alligiance was never defined to as kids memorizing the pledge, I mean how far does alligiance go?

 

[martha]

My misunderstanding. I thought Martha once said while there was no 'rule' as such it should be said, there was an element of expectation it should be recited.

*add: without a reason such as religion etc to not recite it, I mean.

You interpreted what I said correctly. The phrase "element of expectation" is a good way of putting it.

 

[Mirrorball2606]

The pledge isn't a "government" thing, really, is it? Like, there's no law saying students have to say it and students can't be made to say it?

actually in minnesota, where i live and go to school as a high school sophomore, it was passed into law last year that k-12 public schools must say the pledge once a week unless a district chooses to forego it. the district i live in didn't. ... here's my view
political stance #1: separation of church & state
pledge of allegiance

ahh political stance number one, the separation of church and state. with the new school year changes are going to be taking effect at the schools, so the principals say. i'm in high school, as many of you know, at a good sized suburban public school. i was reading the changes that are to take affect at the school this coming year, and there was one, only one, that i was thoroughly upset by. no, it was not that they would be shutting off the vending machines at school during school hours (though i was mildly distraught by that as well). since i was unaware that our state passed the ridiculous legislation about the pledge of allegiance it caught me by surprise. legislation was passed in this great state of minnesota that schools have to say the pledge of allegiance on a regular basis. i know i have brought this topic up in many different conversations with my friends, but it sparked little interest. the words of the pledge: "i pledge allegiance to the flag of the united states of america and to the republic for which it stands one nation under god..." STOP. i go to a public school, not a catholic or protestant school. not a bible school. i am a christian, so im okay with GOD, but i'm sure there are many people in school that are of other religions or are lacking in religion all together. there should be no mention of god (any god, really) in the school, or at least it being regularly required by the school and, moreover, by a law. as soon as i read it i came said something to my mom (i can't recall what it was i voiced). she told me, "you don't have to stand and say it, but if you don't you'll be marked as a communist." i laughed at her, but she's right, well sort of. you see, i will be indicated as someone who will not conform to this ludicrous law. go ahead call me a communist, i find nothing wrong with communism, especially when compared to the society that we live in.

so, here's my basic point: if you love this country and the freedoms it stands for and the laws that have come through precedents you'll see my point. i know many people will not agree with it, but at least try and visualize where i'm coming from. the basic rule of separation of church and state. well, just look at those two words church is a place of worship of a god. state is government. my school gets its funding from the government, therefore we are a government run school. our government should not condone a certain religion just because all of our presidents to date happen to be christians. we are supposed to be able to choose our own religion and not follow that of a controlling government. and, moreover, there is supposed to be no connection between church and state (look up the word separation). so i exercise my basic right as a born citizen of the united states to sit and not say a word, while my classmates stand and become enthralled in something they may or may not believe just because they don't want to be an 'enemy of the state.'


... actually, alot has changed since i wrote that... the district did not choose to forego the pledge, but we have done it a number of, i believe 6 times, each time i sat quietly waiting for my classmates to finish. i do not know the reason why our school (the only high school in the district) doesn't do the pledge anymore, but i have a hunch that it has to do with 1) the attitudes of the students and 2) many teachers are also opposed to saying the pledge in schools

 

[nbcrusader]

actually in minnesota, where i live and go to school as a high school sophomore, it was passed into law last year that k-12 public schools must say the pledge once a week unless a district chooses to forego it. the district i live in didn't.

Many school districts mandate that schools conduct the pledge, but no law requires the students to participate - whether the opt out of the exercise or simply stand with other students and not recite the pledge.

 

[Mirrorball2606]

well, of course. like i opted out... i refused. so did other students

 

[nbcrusader]

Case Dismissed - For Now

Court dismisses Pledge case

The court said the atheist could not sue to ban the pledge from his daughter's school and others because he did not have legal authority to speak for her.

Gone on a proceedural note - simply waiting for the next juicy ACLU plaintiff....

 

[thrillme]

This is nothing more than a domestic dispute, child custody battle, blown out of proportion. I read a quote from Newdow, said he would drop all this altogether if he were to get his daughter back.

Lincoln said the phrase "one nation under God" in his Gettysburg address, so the phrase predates 1954. You have that, "endowed by a Creator" in the Declaration of Independence. George Washington, the first American president, ad-libbed, "so help me God" to his inaugural speech, and it stuck.

So I suppose it's time for a reverse then, after millenia of Christendom, a millenia atheism is next.

So all countries should become secular then. Is Christianity such a harmful thing to society, a belief that says to love your neighbor as you love yourself, treat others as you would like to be treated, if you lend money, don't do it on interest. Don't sue family. Take care of widows, orphans, the sick, the poor, those less well off than you, yup, Christianity is a very harmful idea.

This is the preamble to Ireland's constitution-

"In the Name of the Most Holy Trinity, from Whom is all authority and to Whom, as our final end, all actions both of men and States must be referred, We, the people of ?ire, Humbly acknowledging all our obligations to our Divine Lord, Jesus Christ, Who sustained our fathers through centuries of trial, Gratefully remembering their heroic and unremitting struggle to regain the rightful independence of our Nation, And seeking to promote the common good, with due observance of Prudence, Justice and Charity, so that the dignity and freedom of the individual may be assured, true social order attained, the unity of our country restored, and concord established with other nations, Do hereby adopt, enact, and give to ourselves this Constitution."

5 references, notice the "Whom" is referring back to the Trinity. This wasn't written 200 years ago, this was written in the 20th century. I suppose atheists and non-Christians in Ireland don't like this at all, but, I mean, it's there, it's part of the history, should they go and re-do it, and edit it, to suit the 21st century too?

 

[nbcrusader]

This is nothing more than a domestic dispute, child custody battle, blown out of proportion. I read a quote from Newdow, said he would drop all this altogether if he were to get his daughter back.

I've seen ugly custody disputes and parents manipulating their children and the system to get back at the ex. First time I've seen it get to the Supreme Court.....

 

[U2Kitten]

It's so dumb. If you want to say it, say it, if you don't, don't. Who cares, really? Nobody is holding a gun to anyone forcing them to say it, and taking it out is not fair to the majority who do believe in God. Is this worth all the money that's gone into it?

I also think it's awful that you can't have fun with holidays in schools anymore. 90% of kids don't get to celebrate because 1% or less of the population gets a burr up their ass about it and makes them stop it. I'm so tired of hearing "Winter Break" "Spring Break" and "Harvest Party" When I was in school, we had Christmas stuff up, and yes we always added a Menorah and talked about Hanukkah too, same with Easter and Passover. Now you can't even play Halloween because some people think it's evil. Interesting it was never 'evil' when I was a kid, that came out of movements in the 80's and 90's. It was never anything but kids having fun and good will in the neighborhood, everyone looking at costumes and giving and getting candy. What a shame a small, vocal minority of people have to ruin the fun for most of us. I still say, no one is forcing anyone to 'celebrate' or honor a holiday, so ignore it leave everyone else alone!