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Old 10-01-2007, 08:27 PM   #141
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What in the world does 'Jew friendly' mean?
These are not Jew - friendly

Quote:
Samuel Johnston:
• “It is apprehended that Jews, Mahometans (Muslims), pagans, etc., may be elected to high offices under the government of the United States. Those who are Mahometans, or any others who are not professors of the Christian religion, can never be elected to the office of President or other high office, [unless] first the people of America lay aside the Christian religion altogether, it may happen. Should this unfortunately take place, the people will choose such men as think as they do themselves.

“Having undertaken, for the glory of God, and advancement of the Christian faith


John Adams and John Hancock:
We Recognize No Sovereign but God, and no King but Jesus! [April 18, 1775]


John Adams:
“ The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principals of Christianity… I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.”


John Quincy Adams:
• “Why is it that, next to the birthday of the Savior of the world, your most joyous and most venerated festival returns on this day [the Fourth of July]?" “Is it not that, in the chain of human events, the birthday of the nation is indissolubly linked with the birthday of the Savior? That it forms a leading event in the progress of the Gospel dispensation? Is it not that the Declaration of Independence first organized the social compact on the foundation of the Redeemer's mission upon earth? That it laid the cornerstone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity"?


In Benjamin Franklin's 1749 plan of education for public schools in Pennsylvania, he insisted that schools teach "the excellency of the Christian religion above all others, ancient or modern."


Article 22 of the constitution of Delaware (1776)
Required all officers, besides taking an oath of allegiance, to make and subscribe to the following declaration:
• "I, [name], do profess faith in God the Father, and in Jesus Christ His only Son, and in the Holy Ghost, one God, blessed for evermore; and I do acknowledge the Holy Scriptures of the Old and New Testament to be given by divine inspiration."










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Old 10-01-2007, 08:27 PM   #142
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They are in response to Irvine's statement "nary a mention of Jesus"


I am not saying we should go back to the good ol' days of 1789...but I won't let people rewrite history.


again, show me Jesus in the Constitution or the DOI.

the rest is decontextualized gibberish.
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Old 10-01-2007, 08:33 PM   #143
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They are in response to Irvine's statement "nary a mention of Jesus"
that is what he did write

but where?

oh yeah

in the founding documents that he's only refered to as the "Creator" and there's nary a mention of Jesus.


founding documents:

Declaration of Independence

Bill of Rights

Constitution

and perhaps

The Articles of Confederation

of all your examples, are any of them from the founding documents?
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Old 10-01-2007, 08:36 PM   #144
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of all your examples, are any of them from the founding documents?


it seems the "founding fathers" knew not to mix their personal faith with articles of governance.
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Old 10-01-2007, 08:36 PM   #145
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511




again, show me Jesus in the Constitution or the DOI.

the rest is decontextualized gibberish.
Wait, you said "we're built on the secular humanist values of the Enlightenment with a diest perspective on God,"

These quotes show that you are mistaken.

I can understand that you may not agree with their faith, or their conclusions; but to deny the Christian influence on the formation of this nation is a flat out lie.

But, we are getting off topic...the point is, it wasn't like McCain went out on a limb and said something extreme. His quote is right in line with the quotes I posted from men like Washington, Adams, and Jefferson.
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Old 10-01-2007, 08:38 PM   #146
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Originally posted by AEON


Wait, you said "we're built on the secular humanist values of the Enlightenment with a diest perspective on God,"

These quotes show that you are mistaken.
.


but, um, clearly i'm not.
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Old 10-01-2007, 08:40 PM   #147
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Quote:
Originally posted by AEON
But, we are getting off topic...the point is, it wasn't like McCain went out on a limb and said something extreme. His quote is right in line with the quotes I posted from men like Washington, Adams, and Jefferson.
please

there are all kinds of things that were said by these so called founding fathers that should never be repeated


I dare say if they were here today
they would be ran out of town
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Old 10-01-2007, 08:40 PM   #148
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Quote:
Originally posted by deep


that is what he did write

but where?

oh yeah

in the founding documents that he's only refered to as the "Creator" and there's nary a mention of Jesus.


founding documents:

Declaration of Independence

Bill of Rights

Constitution

and perhaps

The Articles of Confederation

of all your examples, are any of them from the founding documents?
I guess by 'Creator' they were referring to Buddha's dream of the lotus leaf...the quotes give context to the official language of the founding documents.
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Old 10-01-2007, 08:41 PM   #149
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511




but, um, clearly i'm not.
Yeah, I guess you're right. And the pilgrims were really Wiccans...
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Old 10-01-2007, 08:42 PM   #150
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Originally posted by deep


I dare say if they were here today
they would be ran out of town
This is unfortunately very true...
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Old 10-01-2007, 08:43 PM   #151
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Yeah, I guess you're right. And the pilgrims were really Wiccans...


the pilgrims burned witches.

Jefferson owned slaves.

good christians, all.
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Old 10-01-2007, 08:45 PM   #152
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Quote:
Originally posted by AEON


I guess by 'Creator' they were referring to Buddha's dream of the lotus leaf...the quotes give context to the official language of the founding documents.


but this is the point. this is the genius of secular humanism.

a Buddhist could read these documents and, yes, have precisely that interpretation.

Jesus doesn't give a Buddhist shit. his sense of freedom, his sense of dignity as a human being -- which is actually what these documents are getting at, that we are all, peasant and king, cosmically equal -- comes from a very different place. but the Christian and the Buddhist and the Muslim can all agree that, cosmically, one is not superior to the other.

(but would you agree with that?)

(and what if all those quotes were decidedly Catholic, had lots of Mary-worshipping stuff, would you be as eager to toss them as evidence that the FF's were standing in your corner?)
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Old 10-01-2007, 08:47 PM   #153
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Quote:
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I guess by 'Creator' they were referring to Buddha's dream of the lotus leaf...the quotes give context to the official language of the founding documents.
I am agnostic

but if I were an atheist I would have signed that document


it is a pretty good deal to get rights from a creator that no one can see or find

vs

A Monarch that will tax me and can take my property or imprison me at will.
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Old 10-01-2007, 08:53 PM   #154
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This is unfortunately very true...
why is it unfortunate?

child rape is a bad thing

and let's be honest

even in 1770's

any decent and God fearing person would have to conclude that slavery was an absolute abomination

sure one can rationalize any practice
if it serves their own selfish purposes

just look at the polygamists in UT/AZ

They are decent God fearing people, too.
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Old 10-01-2007, 08:57 PM   #155
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511




but this is the point. this is the genius of secular humanism.

a Buddhist could read these documents and, yes, have precisely that interpretation.

Jesus doesn't give a Buddhist shit. his sense of freedom, his sense of dignity as a human being -- which is actually what these documents are getting at, that we are all, peasant and king, cosmically equal -- comes from a very different place. but the Christian and the Buddhist and the Muslim can all agree that, cosmically, one is not superior to the other.

(but would you agree with that?)

(and what if all those quotes were decidedly Catholic, had lots of Mary-worshipping stuff, would you be as eager to toss them as evidence that the FF's were standing in your corner?)
Well, I do think that using the generic word Creator was wise decision. My issue was with the denial of the Christian influence. The Founding Documents were not written by Buddhists, Agnostic Secular Humanists, nor Catholics - but by White Protestant Anglo Saxon males (Oh no!).

These men had faults, the documents aren't perfect, and our nation is always a work in progress; but the United States was formed by White Protestant Anglo Saxon males whether we like it or not. However, I do think that writing in an inclusive, and not exclusive manner, extended the American dream to include those of all faiths, races, and genders.
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Old 10-01-2007, 08:59 PM   #156
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And it's blatantly obvious that we should recognize their mistakes here and remember the phrase "separation of church and state."
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Old 10-01-2007, 09:04 PM   #157
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However, I do think that writing in an inclusive, and not exclusive manner, extended the American dream to include those of all faiths, races, and genders.
I do agree the best thing was the ability to amend.

A good many of the founding fathers would hate what America is today.

And the fact that their handy work permitted it.


It may seem I am a harsh judge of these fine fellows.

I think it is just my swinging back hard on the white washing of history I believe I was brought up on.


How many of us really were taught that we almost never had to fight the Civil War?
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Old 10-01-2007, 09:04 PM   #158
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it wasn't like McCain went out on a limb and said something extreme. His quote is right in line with the quotes I posted from men like Washington, Adams, and Jefferson.
But he said it 200+ years later in a more diverse USA.

So yeah, it was a revealing thing to say.
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Old 10-01-2007, 09:06 PM   #159
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A good many of the founding fathers would hate what America is today.

And the fact that their handy work permitted it.

Don't judge men of 200 years ago by modern standards. It can't and shouldn't be done. They were men of their time. No amount of revisionist history can make them modern men.
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Old 10-01-2007, 09:06 PM   #160
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But he said it 200+ years later in a more diverse USA.

So yeah, it was a revealing thing to say.
And then we get nitwits like Laura Ingraham saying that anyone who would disagree with him is trying to destory religion altogether.
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