US 2008 Presidential Campaign Thread - Part 2

[Irvine511]

so what's going to happen when Dobson endorses Huckabee?

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

I thought of this thread when I read this in a column today by Ellen Goodman.

As a recent Catalyst survey of corporate leaders said, women are "damned if they do and doomed if they don't" meet the expectations of gender stereotypes. Linguistics professor Deborah Tannen describes the fate of achieving women this way: "Our image of a politician, a leader, a manager, anyone in authority, is still at odds with our expectations of a woman. To the extent that a woman is feminine, she's seen as weak. To the extent that she puts it aside and is forceful, aggressive, and decisive, she's not seen as a good woman."

How ironic that some qualities some people admire in someone like GWB, well they just seem to be a huge problem if any woman possesses them-well at the very least any Democratic woman.

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

Ellen Goodman is spot on-sad, but true. You do raise an interesting question as well-if a Republican woman were running, how would people handle her should she be as tough as Hilary?

Honestly, I don't care if someone's male or female, Democrat or Republican, whatever, I'm not going to get on them simply for having a strong will. That trait alone isn't a bad thing to have (it's something I wish I had more of). It's what they do with that strong will that matters most to me.

As for your other post, by the way, MrsSpringsteen-rock on . Very well said.

Angela

 

[BVS]

I wonder how long after 2008 will it take before there's a minority that runs on the Repbublican ticket?

 

[Irvine511]

How ironic that some qualities some people admire in someone like GWB, well they just seem to be a huge problem if any woman possesses them-well at the very least any Democratic woman. [/B]

 

[diamond]

How are they different?

If your really need an explanation I would consult your physician.



dbs

 

[Lila64]

Please don't tell me you are basing your opinions on someone's physical appearance.

 

[BVS]

If your really need an explanation I would consult your physician.



dbs

So you've just basically screwed your whole argument by this comment... basically you are saying that the only differences are physical.

That makes everything else you said just sexist tripe.

Congrats

You've back up what we've all known for years...

 

[diamond]

Nice try Einstein.

Even a family Dr will tell that men and women are wired differently emotionally.

And genetically speaking you're wired closer to a woman than most men.

good day.


dbs

 

[Lila64]

 

[phillyfan26]

Nice try Einstein.

Even a family Dr will tell that men and women are wired differently emotionally.

And genetically speaking you're wired closer to a woman than most men.

good day.


dbs

Are you serious?

 

[diamond]

Yes.

 

[diamond]

http://www.amazon.com/Mars-Women-Venus-Communication-Relationships/dp/006016848X

 

[BVS]

And genetically speaking you're wired closer to a woman than most men.

Oh, I'd love to hear this...

Please do tell. With your vast knowledge in genetics tell me exactly what you meant by this.

 

[BVS]

http://www.amazon.com/Mars-Women-Venus-Communication-Relationships/dp/006016848X

Yes, a very interesting read from a man that never received a real PHD...

But it still doesn't prove shit...

 

[phillyfan26]

But it still doesn't prove shit...

Hey, if one doctor questioning whether homosexuality is a choice, when a clear majority says it's not (plus all the actual homosexuals who say it's not), is a rational defense against gay marriage, this book argument proves a lot.

 

[Axver]

Funny, New Zealand's been led by women for a decade now and it hasn't imploded.

I can't even begin to fathom what the hell's going on in this thread now. The lack of logic is just too maddening for my brain to handle.

 

[BonosSaint]

Leaving diamond out of this equation because he is proud of his gift for satire so there is no sense taking his bait if you don't know whether he holds these positions or is stringing you along--maybe deep can help here--, but the rigidity of thought in a lot of people who hold similar attitudes to the ones espoused begins to paint a picture on why Bush was admired for his rigidity even in his failures. He's a man's man.

The same rigidity places limits on people (the pattern generally being people other than white, heterosexual men) based on biology and chemistry and some notion of divine right and purpose. If you want to go beyond those limits, you are an aberration unless they can hold you up as some kind of token.
If a woman uses the same skills a man does to get ahead, it is unnatural, but then the same skills that these type credit to women--ability to play well with others, for instance, or compassion--they often dismiss as weakness, so the dice are loaded by those who want to keep options open for themselves but to close them for others.

Women's intelligence is acknowledged, but they aren't seen as having vision. Women are lauded as the moral compasses unless they actually try to instruct morality. Women are to bear responsibility but their authority makes us uncomfortable.

It makes me stop when this country is so applauded as the land of opportunity, that how far you go is based on your choice and your ability--until you actually take the steps to advance, unless you step outside the boundaries of your place.

I don't know if I support Hillary. But if I don't, it is because she shares some of the same qualities I don't like in Giuliani or McCain. It's because I don't like the qualities, not because I don't like the qualities when they are displayed by a specific sex but find acceptable in the other.

Strength of character or intelligence or diplomacy or the willingness to go to war or the ability to negotiate strongly or make difficult decisions or stupid-ass decisions are not gender-specific.

 

[anitram]

Nice try Einstein.

Even a family Dr will tell that men and women are wired differently emotionally.

And genetically speaking you're wired closer to a woman than most men.

good day.


dbs

I don't care if he thinks he's being funny, why is it completely permissible and okay for diamond to act like a sexist pig here on an almost daily basis? It's not clever, it's not funny, it's not satirical anymore, and I'm not even going to touch what he's implying by his comment to BVS here. What, we're supposed to all chuckle and pat him on the head and treat him like that uncle that gets drunk at Thanksgiving and embarrasses everyone just because that's his nature? It's seriously beginning to grate.

 

[verte76]

Diamond keeps saying men and women are different. The question is, does he think they're equal? If not, then yes, that's sexism.

 

[verte76]

If your really need an explanation I would consult your physician.



dbs

Consult my physician? Egads.

 

[BonosSaint]

I leave diamond out of the equation because I always leave diamond out of the equation. If he gets his jollies by getting a rise out of people, I don't intend to give him that satisfaction.
He's not important to me. His individual views aren't important to me. There's a mindnumbing tedium in them. But the multiplication of his expressed viewpoint in too many people concerns me. So I choose to address the topic and not the poster.

 

[Vincent Vega]

I've always loved the story of the woman who saw her male colleagues getting promoted one after another in this Alaskan oil company and she couldn't break through the glass ceiling.
Then she left the company, opened her own one, and after, I think, three to five years she was able to buy her former company and immediately dismissed all the managers that wouldn't promote her.

 

[BonosSaint]

 

[Bono's shades]

Diamond keeps saying men and women are different. The question is, does he think they're equal? If not, then yes, that's sexism.

Exactly.

I've found that whenever someone starts spouting off about how men and women are different and we should "celebrate" those differences, what they really mean is women are soft, emotional creatures not cut out for positions of leadership. And if they do display the kind of toughness traditionally associated with males, such as Hillary Clinton does, it freaks them out and they say "OMG! She's teh devil!"

 

[deep]

Celebrate the difference !!

and reward the difference!!

 

[diamond]

Exactly.

I've found that whenever someone starts spouting off about how men and women are different and we should "celebrate" those differences, what they really mean is women are soft, emotional creatures not cut out for positions of leadership. And if they do display the kind of toughness traditionally associated with males, such as Hillary Clinton does, it freaks them out and they say "OMG! She's teh devil!"

You're quite wrong.

The insinuations in this thread as me being sexist are even funnier.

Women and men are different, but equal.

Pay scales shouldn't be reflected on gender. Men and women should be payed equally.

Strength and charm are traits in a leader that equally needed regradless of gender.

Some strong yet charming female leaders I admire are pictured below:

?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...x-Dianne_Feinstein_congressional_portrait.jpg[/IMG]
Back to the topic at hand:

Hilary doesn't hold a candle to any of these female leaders.

On a personal level if I'm such a sexist how can I be happily married to a liberal minded educated woman with a Master's degree who earns well into 6 figures?

If I was some insecure sexist pig-don't you think she'd throw me out?

You guys need to understand my point, the average American male doesn't like Hilary because she comes across as bossy and angry, and those traits will get nobody elected, regardless of gender-that was my point.

Are we clear?

dbs

 

[Diemen]

On a personal level if I'm such a sexist how can I be happily married to a liberal minded educated woman with a Master's degree who earns well into 6 figures?

Sugar momma?

You guys need to understand my point, the average American male doesn't like Hulary because she comes across as bossy and angry, and those traits will get nobody elected, regardless on gender.

Are we clear?

And the point of others in here is that if a male candidate acted exactly like Hilary has been acting, he'd be called strong and no pushover. It's a double standard.

 

[phillyfan26]

You guys need to understand my point, the average American male doesn't like Hilary because she comes across as bossy and angry, and those traits will get nobody elected, regardless of gender-that was my point.

Are we clear?

dbs

1) What Diemen said.
2) How is she bossy and angry? Specific examples, please?
3) Crystal, sir.

 

[diamond]

And the point of others in here is that if a male candidate acted exactly like Hilary has been acting, he'd be called strong and no pushover. It's a double standard.

No he wouldn't, he'd be Joe Biden, or Tom Tancredo.
It's that simple.


dbs