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Old 09-18-2008, 08:19 PM   #1
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US 2008 Presidential Campaign Discussion Thread - Part 9

McCain. Obama. America. THE ELECTION.
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Old 09-18-2008, 08:41 PM   #2
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There's an election????
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Old 09-18-2008, 08:59 PM   #3
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McCain. Obama. America. THE ELECTION.
Just change one letter in the above and this could be a mighty fun thread.
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Old 09-18-2008, 09:03 PM   #4
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(Quote) A slur? Wow. I was stating what you have in your location, as a way of explaining your hardcore right wing stance. That's a slur?

The rest? That's rich, coming from someone who stated unequivocally that Canadians are envious of the US. (End quote)

Hardcore is a way of saying extreme and not usable. What you consider hardcore was considered normal by liberals in the past. Now do understand that posts don't show too much emotion so I'm when I read your post not .

The comment about envious Canadians is my observation of Canadians. I'm definately not envious because I believe in earning my own way. Canadians are more liberal and into entitlement behaviour. They hate success and believe it should be given.

We also don't have a conservative media. Fox News was prevented from being allowed here by the CRTC regulatory body until recently. We have liberal propaganda most of the time. I don't think there is even a radio program like Rush Limbaugh here at all. This will explain much of the attitudes Canadians have about Americans. Most of the Palin criticism (including the baby swap theory) was taken without any balance by the CBC when she was chosen.

I actually like the U.S. and don't want to see them go down. I don't think it's rocket science to know that we benefit greatly by free trade and the military protection the U.S. provides.

If I was a liberal I would be one of those Anti-Americans. Most anti-americanism is related to envy.
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Old 09-18-2008, 09:31 PM   #5
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I actually like the U.S. and don't want to see them go down. I don't think it's rocket science to know that we benefit greatly by free trade and the military protection the U.S. provides.

If I was a liberal I would be one of those Anti-Americans. Most anti-americanism is related to envy.
That's just great. I'm a liberal and in no way am I anti-American, nor am I envious.
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Old 09-18-2008, 09:49 PM   #6
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(Financeguy quote)Ah yes, manichaeist thinking - a classic symptom of the neo-'conservative' meme.

Sadly, there is no known cure for this affliction. (End quote)

Yeah there is a cure. Destroy all weapons, fly a white flag, open borders, hug terrorists and die in a hail of nuclear warheads while watching Letters from Iwo Jima, crying for the fascist Japanese and how they were abused by American soldiers. I think I prefer my way of thinking.

I'm sure liberals believe in good and evil and Western civilization is evil, and Bush is a terrorist and evil. Liberals want to "cure" conservatives instead of convince them and that's the difference.

How do you avoid manichaeist thinking in regards to WWII? Is relativism the answer? There are so many examples in history of people trying to control other people in abusive ways that it's ignoring human nature if we decide not to defend ourselves.

Human beings seem to like freedom and those that don't are either slaves and can't freely speak or those that run slaves and benefit from it. You need to define good and evil and the U.S. correctly looks at human nature and their love of freedom as a starting point. The rest of the argument relates to whether my freedom interferes with your freedom. Law has to come in and democracy to organize all the disputes on what freedom is for. As Lord Acton said "Freedom is not the power to do what we like but the power to do what we ought." Law is a culmination of human experience that is adjusted over time as generations debate its place.

If you get mugged in the street are you telling me that you are above good and evil labels and will just brush yourself off and feel no moral indignation? Relativists usually get hung up on NAZIS because most people look at them as evil. You can't escape the labels of Good and Evil if you want to communicate successfully. Relativism is like anti-knowledge.
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Old 09-18-2008, 09:54 PM   #7
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That's just great. I'm a liberal and in no way am I anti-American, nor am I envious.
Well then the Liberal party must have annoyed you when they made anti-american remarks during the Paul Martin campaign. If a politician stamps on a George Bush doll and says I hate Americans is that anti-american?

You must be a very level headed liberal then. I hear nothing but liberals in my office saying that America is the greatest evil.
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Old 09-18-2008, 10:32 PM   #8
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Never judge a country by it's government. The "anti-American" statements of which you speak were more directed at the policies of the Bush administration than at the average American.

It's OK, in my opinion, to make anti-government remarks, but these should not, in any circumstance, be confused for anti-Americanism. It's imperative not to confuse the two. I, for one, am firmly anti-Bush, but I love America and all it stands for as much as the next guy.

And please, don't paint all liberals with the same brush, or insinuate that the Liberal Party speaks for all left-leaning individuals across the country.
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Old 09-18-2008, 10:39 PM   #9
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Canadians are more liberal and into entitlement behaviour. They hate success and believe it should be given.
Canadians hate success!!!!!!!!!!

Must be why my parents pushed me and my brother into the best schools and insisted we make something of ourselves.

My NDP-voting parents, by the way.
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Old 09-18-2008, 10:52 PM   #10
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If I was a liberal I would be one of those Anti-Americans.
Oh please, don't you start also with this liberal here, conservative there.
(And I mean all you Canadians.)
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Old 09-18-2008, 10:56 PM   #11
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(Financeguy quote)Ah yes, manichaeist thinking - a classic symptom of the neo-'conservative' meme.

Sadly, there is no known cure for this affliction. (End quote)

Yeah there is a cure. Destroy all weapons, fly a white flag, open borders, hug terrorists and die in a hail of nuclear warheads while watching Letters from Iwo Jima, crying for the fascist Japanese and how they were abused by American soldiers. I think I prefer my way of thinking.

I'm sure liberals believe in good and evil and Western civilization is evil, and Bush is a terrorist and evil. Liberals want to "cure" conservatives instead of convince them and that's the difference.

How do you avoid manichaeist thinking in regards to WWII? Is relativism the answer? There are so many examples in history of people trying to control other people in abusive ways that it's ignoring human nature if we decide not to defend ourselves.

Human beings seem to like freedom and those that don't are either slaves and can't freely speak or those that run slaves and benefit from it. You need to define good and evil and the U.S. correctly looks at human nature and their love of freedom as a starting point. The rest of the argument relates to whether my freedom interferes with your freedom. Law has to come in and democracy to organize all the disputes on what freedom is for. As Lord Acton said "Freedom is not the power to do what we like but the power to do what we ought." Law is a culmination of human experience that is adjusted over time as generations debate its place.

If you get mugged in the street are you telling me that you are above good and evil labels and will just brush yourself off and feel no moral indignation? Relativists usually get hung up on NAZIS because most people look at them as evil. You can't escape the labels of Good and Evil if you want to communicate successfully. Relativism is like anti-knowledge.

[Stereotype] All Conservatives can come up with is WWII and the Nazis. [/Stereotype]
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Old 09-18-2008, 11:02 PM   #12
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Just change one letter in the above and this could be a mighty fun thread.

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Old 09-19-2008, 06:26 AM   #13
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Yeah there is a cure. Destroy all weapons, fly a white flag, open borders, hug terrorists and die in a hail of nuclear warheads while watching Letters from Iwo Jima, crying for the fascist Japanese and how they were abused by American soldiers. I think I prefer my way of thinking.

I'm sure liberals believe in good and evil and Western civilization is evil, and Bush is a terrorist and evil.
Quite a straw man you got going there.. .
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Old 09-19-2008, 06:30 AM   #14
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purpleoscar, you are quite the caricature. And I really hope you read this one correctly.

You came into this thread last evening responding to a post of mine, a post of mine which you completely misread, I clarified and yet you still haven't answered my original premise. You've written some lengthy "liberal this conservative that" BS(since you don't like the term rhetoric), but you rarely answer the real questions or issues.

So I will restate my original post which brought you into this thread: How is it that conservatives can support a war that cost up to 10 BILLION A MONTH and still champion and expect tax cuts?

Plus I'll ask you again why diplomacy or negotiations are "Yikes" when a Democrat suggest them but fine when a conservative employs them?



If you're going to continue with the lengthy avoidance of the questions while putting in as many jabs as you can about people who don't think like you then we'll just part here for you're wasting our time...
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Old 09-19-2008, 09:18 AM   #15
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I'm still trying to figure out what "country first" means and how Sen Obama doesn't put his country first. Country first or Obama first? Wtf?

msnbc

McCain: Playing the patriotism card
Posted: Friday, September 19, 2008 9:17 AM by Mark Murray
Filed Under: 2008, McCain

At last night’s rally in Wisconsin, McCain said this: “And that’s how we see this election, country first or Obama first and I have a feeling [chant of “Country First, Country First”]… So when it comes to cutting taxes for seniors, for working families, for small businesses my opponent didn’t put the hardworking people of this country first. When it came time to support our troops fighting to protect our freedoms and way of life my opponent said he’d never deprive them of the funds they needed to fight and then did just that.”

He later added, “A vote for me will guarantee that the forces that have brought down our economy will be out of business. I will end the corrupt practices on Wall Street and backroom deals in Washington DC. I will hold accountable those responsible for the oversight and protection of consumers, taxpayers and homeowners. A vote for Sen. Obama will leave this country at risk during one of the most severe challenges to America’s economy since the Great Depression, and that’s straight talk, my friends.”

The New York Times’ Nagourney spends some time on the trail with McCain and isn't impressed. "McCain’s once easygoing if irreverent campaign presence — endearing to crowds, though often the kind of undisciplined excursions that landed him in the gaffe doghouse — has been put out to pasture. He takes far fewer chances, meaning there are fewer risqué jokes, zingers at a familiar face in the crowd, provocative observations on policy or politics, or exercises in self-derogatory humor. By every appearance, this Mr. McCain is, or at least is struggling to be, disciplined and on message in a way befitting of American politics today, if not quite befitting of the McCain of yesterday."

Here's the roughest part of the analysis: "For years, Mr. McCain has struck a different kind of cloth as a presidential candidate: as a politician capable of defying his party or embracing it; holding a world view that defied any easy ideological setting; having an ironic detachment as he observed himself on the campaign trail, combined with a sly sense of humor that leavened his occasional bursts of temper.”

“These days, Mr. McCain sounds less like his old self than Bob Dole, another Republican senator who ran for president in 1996, sounded in the closing days of his campaign — speaking louder or repeating statements that he thinks might be overlooked. ‘The American economy is in a crisis!’ Mr. McCain said. ‘It’s in a crisis!’”
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Old 09-19-2008, 09:27 AM   #16
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(CNN) -- Sen. Barack Obama has widened his lead over Sen. John McCain, according to CNN's latest "poll of polls."

The senator from Illinois is ahead of McCain in national polls by 3 percentage points, 47 percent to 44 percent. Obama was up by 2 points in the poll of polls released earlier Thursday.

McCain led in national polls last week, but by the weekend, the candidates were tied. Obama recaptured the lead for the first time in 10 days Wednesday.

The latest poll of polls consists of four surveys: CBS/The New York Times (September 12-16), Gallup (September 15-17), Diageo/Hotline (September 14-16) and American Research Group (September 13-15). It does not have a sampling error.

The economic crisis has given Obama and his running mate, Sen. Joe Biden, the opportunity to go on the offensive. Most Americans see Obama as more capable than McCain when it comes to the economy, polls indicate.
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Old 09-19-2008, 11:14 AM   #17
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Joe Biden loses Barack Obama the Catholic vote

More, as promised, on Senator Joe Biden (why should Sarah Palin get all the coverage?). Remember, you read it here first: on September 11 this blog reported a mounting backlash from Catholic bishops against Biden, Barack Obama's "Catholic" pro-abortion running mate. At that time I estimated eight bishops had come out to denounce Biden; the total is now 55. Beyond that, Biden is being trashed across every state of the Union by Catholic newspapers, TV and radio stations, and blogs. It is a tsunami of rejection.



Joe Biden has really put his foot in it with the Catholics

The story has now hit the secular media. Last Saturday Time magazine asked: "Does Biden Have a Catholic Problem?" By Wednesday the issue had moved onto the front page of the New York Times. Joe the Jinx has blown it, big time. Biden has only himself to blame: he started this war, with his notoriously undisciplined mouth. He knew the dangers. Last August, Archbishop Raymond Burke, former Archbishop of St Louis and now Prefect of the Apostolic Segnatura in Rome, said communion should be denied to pro-abortion politicians "until they have reformed their lives".

Archbishop Chaput of Denver had already announced Biden should not receive communion because of his pro-abortion views. Defiantly, Biden took communion in his home parish in Delaware in late August. On September 2 the Bishop of Scranton, Pennsylvania (a crucial swing state) banned him from communion in his diocese. That is effective excommunication. Then came the crucial provocation. On NBC's Meet the Press programme on September 7 Biden grossly misrepresented the Catholic Church's teaching on abortion and audaciously cited St Thomas Aquinas in his own cause.

That did it. House Speaker Nancy Pelosi had already done the same thing on the same programme, in her instance citing St Augustine. Even the torpid US bishops could not have false doctrine glibly broadcast by public figures, misleading their flock. So the counterattack described here last week began, culminating in a statement from the US Bishops' Conference. The bishops of Kansas City have also issued a pastoral letter on the subject. It is open season on Biden.

There are 47 million Catholic voters in the United States. One quarter of all registered voters are Catholics. At every presidential election in the past 30 years the Catholic vote has gone to the winning candidate, except for Al Gore in 2000. This year 41 per cent of Catholics are independents - up from 30 per cent in 2004. Psephologists claim practising Catholics were the decisive factor in the crucial swing states in 2004: in Ohio 65 per cent of Catholics voted for Bush, in Florida 66 per cent. They were drifting away in disillusionment from the Republicans and split 50-50, until Joe Biden worked his magic. This is electoral suicide by the Democrats.Full coverage of the US Election 2008
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Old 09-19-2008, 11:26 AM   #18
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How does this make any sense? How would it be any different for any other pro-choice Catholic?

Someone's reaching. Those that have decided to vote along Bishop lines have already decided so...
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Old 09-19-2008, 11:40 AM   #19
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Senator Biden was not barred from communion in Scranton, per the diocese.
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Old 09-19-2008, 12:04 PM   #20
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Joe Biden loses Barack Obama the Catholic vote
This is one of the main reasons I no longer go to mass on Sundays. I'm Catholic in name only because I cannot support those who insist on chastising others in their own denomination.

The last day I willingly went to mass they discussed abortion and Terri Schiavo's case and I thought that neither story was related to my personal relationship with God. If a priest wants to stand up there and preach his own beliefs instead of what's in the Bible and what Jesus preached, then he should form his own Ministry that discusses politics and do it there. I'm sure many people would be happy to attend. But to ostracize me because of my beliefs on issues that don't belong in a church??

I guess the separation between church and states is crossed on both sides.
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