US 2008 Presidential Campaign/Debate Discussion Thread - The Fifth Installment

[deep]

Canada

gets a big

thumbs up from me

and America has the worst Health Care System in the world
if you are evaluating the money that is paid into Health Care
to the actual Health Care provided


I am sure Canada is way ahead
looking at that same metric.

[BVS]

Originally posted by anitram


People in Canada can CHOOSE THEIR OWN DOCTOR. What the hell is diamond talking about??

Diamond doesn't have a lot of the facts.

That's a known fact.

[diamond]

Originally posted by anitram


People in Canada can CHOOSE THEIR OWN DOCTOR. What the hell is diamond talking about??

From a pool?


Or can you open up your phone book and pick whatever OBGYN or Heart Specialist you choose, given your ailment?


dbs

[anitram]

What pool?

If I was a pregnant woman, I'd open the phone book and pick whatever ob/gyn I wanted to. Or I'd ask my friends and go on their recommendation. Period.

I recently needed to see a specialist as I'm having a surgical procedure done in April. They asked me if I'd previously seen a specialist in this field - turns out I had and I liked her so I asked if I could get a referral to her again. I did, without any problem. I am actually going to a different one in the end, because I wanted the procedure done in the city where I'm at school at the moment rather than Toronto. Again, it wasn't a problem.

[diamond]

Originally posted by anitram
What pool?

If I was a pregnant woman, I'd open the phone book and pick whatever ob/gyn I wanted to. Or I'd ask my friends and go on their recommendation. Period.

I recently needed to see a specialist as I'm having a surgical procedure done in April. They asked me if I'd previously seen a specialist in this field - turns out I had and I liked her so I asked if I could get a referral to her again. I did, without any problem. I am actually going to a different one in the end, because I wanted the procedure done in the city where I'm at school at the moment rather than Toronto. Again, it wasn't a problem.

Alright fine I stand corrected on that, but on a larger point the USA Health Care is much more advanced then Canadas-were it not so rich Canadians wouldn't look to the USA for the best medical help.

You can liken the USA's Health Care to Canada's the same way you can liken Nordstroms to Walmart.

And for the liberals that turn this into a class envy war shame on you. Another man should never judge another fellow my the size
of
his
wallet.

If you're fornuate to drive a 550 s Mercedes good on you; I happen to drive a Honda Accord EX and I 'm not envious of the Mercedes fellow.



dbs

[Irvine511]

Originally posted by 2861U2


That pastor is despicable, and Mr. Obama has some serious explaining to do. I hope he gets hammered hard about this, but I doubt he will be. I don't understand why Obama went to that church for 20 years listening to this kind of hate and racism. Obama says he looked around for a long time to find the right church, and this is the best he could get? He thinks its ok to bring his daughters to listen to this hate? Do "god damn" and "nigger" really belong in a church?

do you endorse the comments of Reverend Hagee?

McCain certainly seems to.

[namkcuR]

Did anyone see Keith Olbermann's 'Special Comment' about the Hillary/Ferraro thing? The 'Special Comment' segment isn't anything new, he does it every once in a while, but DAMN...last night, he just ripped Hillary and her campaign a new one for their handling(or lack thereof) of the Ferraro thing and what it represents. This was a nearly ten minute long tyrade. And it was one of the best things I've ever heard any pundit say about anything. Olbermann has balls.

Youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qXBXD2zizIY

Transcript: http://thenewshole.msnbc.msn.com/arc...12/762678.aspx

SPECIAL COMMENT
Posted: Wednesday, March 12, 2008 9:01 PM by Countdown

Filed Under: Special Comment

Finally, as promised, a Special Comment on the presidential campaign of the Junior Senator from New York.

By way of necessary preface, President and Senator Clinton -- and the Senator's mother, and the Senator's brother -- were of immeasurable support to me at the moments when these very commentaries were the focus of the most surprise, the most uncertainty, and the most anger. My gratitude to them is abiding.

Also, I am not here endorsing Senator Obama's nomination, nor suggesting it is inevitable.

Thus I have fought with myself over whether or not to say anything.

Senator, as it has reached its apex in their tone-deaf, arrogant, and insensitive reaction to the remarks of Geraldine Ferraro... your own advisors are slowly killing your chances to become President.

Senator, their words, and your own, are now slowly killing the chances for any Democrat to become President.

In your tepid response to this Ferraro disaster, you may sincerely think you are disenthralling an enchanted media, and righting an unfair advance bestowed on Senator Obama.

You may think the matter has closed with Representative Ferraro's bitter, almost threatening resignation.

But in fact, Senator, you are now campaigning, as if Barack Obama were the Democrat, and you… were the Republican.

As Shakespeare wrote, Senator -- that way… madness… lies.

You have missed a critical opportunity to do... what was right.

No matter what Ms. Ferraro now claims, no one took her comments out of context.

She had made them on at least three separate occasions, then twice more on television this morning.

Just hours ago, on NBC Nightly News, she denied she had made the remarks in an interview -- only at a paid political speech.

In fact, the first time she spoke them, was ten days before the California newspaper published them... not in a speech, but in a radio interview.

On February 26th, quoting...

"If Barack Obama were a white man, would we be talking about this, as a potential real problem for Hillary? If he were a woman of any color, would he be in this position that he's in? Absolutely not."

The context was inescapable.

Two minutes earlier, a member of Senator Clinton's Finance Committee, one of her "Hill-Raisers," had bemoaned the change in allegiance by Super-Delegate John Lewis from Clinton to Obama, and the endorsement of Obama by Senator Dodd.

"I look at these guys doing it," she had said, "and I have to tell you, it's the guys sticking together."

A minute after the "color" remarks, she was describing herself as having been chosen for the 1984 Democratic ticket, purely as a woman politician, purely to make history.

She was, in turn, making a blind accusation of sexism -- and dismissing Senator Obama's candidacy as nothing more than an Equal Opportunity stunt.

The next day she repeated her comments to a reporter from the newspaper in Torrance, California.

"If Obama was a white man, he would not be in this position. And if he was a woman (of any color) he would not be in this position. He happens to be very lucky to be who he is. And the country is caught up in the concept."

And when this despicable statement -- ugly in its overtones, laughable in its weak grip of facts, and moronic in the historical context -- when it floats outward from the Clinton Campaign like a poison cloud, what do the advisors have their candidate do?

Do they have Senator Clinton herself compare the remark to Al Campanis talking on Nightline... on Jackie Robinson day... about how blacks lacked the necessities to become baseball executives, while she points out that Barack Obama has not gotten his 1600 delegates as part of some kind of Affirmative Action plan?

Do they have Senator Clinton note that her own brief period in elected office, is as irrelevant to the issue of judgment as is Senator Obama's…

…while she points out that FDR had served only six years as a governor and state Senator before he became President?

Or that Teddy Roosevelt had four-and-a-half years before the White House?

Or that Woodrow Wilson had two years and six weeks?

Or Richard Nixon… fourteen... and Calvin Coolidge 25?

Do these advisors have Senator Clinton invoke Samantha Power -- gone by sunrise after she used the word "monster" -- and have Senator Clinton say, "this is how I police my campaign and this is what I stand for," while she fires former Congresswoman Ferraro from any role the campaign?

No.

Somebody tells her that simply disagreeing with and rejecting the remarks is sufficient.

And she should then call, "regrettable", words that should make any Democrat retch.

And that she should then try to twist them, first into some pox-on-both-your-houses plea to 'stick to the issues,' and then to let her campaign manager try to bend them beyond all recognition, into Senator Obama's fault.

And thus these advisers give Congresswoman Ferraro nearly a week in which to send Senator Clinton's campaign back into the vocabulary... of David Duke.

"Any time anybody does anything that in any way pulls this campaign down and says let's address reality and the problems we're facing in this world, you're accused of being racist, so you have to shut up.

"Racism works in two different directions. I really think they're attacking me because I'm white.

"How's that?"

How's that?

Apart from sounding exactly like Rush Limbaugh attacking the black football quarterback Donovan McNabb?

Apart from sounding exactly like what Ms. Ferraro said about another campaign, nearly twenty years ago?

Quote:
"President Reagan suggested Tuesday that people don't ask Jackson tough questions because of his race. And former representative Geraldine A. Ferraro (D-N.Y.) said Wednesday that because of his "radical" views, "if Jesse Jackson were not black, he wouldn't be in the race."

So... apart from sounding like insidious racism that is at least two decades old?

Apart from rendering ridiculous, Senator Clinton's shell-game about choosing Obama as Vice President?

Apart from this evening's resignation letter?

"I am stepping down from your finance committee so I can speak for myself and you can continue to speak for yourself about what is at stake in this campaign.

"The Obama campaign is attacking me to hurt you."

Apart from all that?

Well. It sounds as if those advisors want their campaign to be associated with those words, and the cheap… ignorant… vile… racism that underlies every syllable...

And that Geraldine Ferraro has just gone free-lance.

Senator Clinton:

This is not a campaign strategy.

This is a suicide pact.

This week alone, your so-called strategists have declared that Senator Obama has not yet crossed the "commander-in-chief threshold"…

But -- he might be your choice to be Vice President, even though a quarter of the previous sixteen Vice Presidents have become commander-in-chief during the greatest kind of crisis this nation can face: a mid-term succession.

But you'd only pick him if he crosses that threshold by the time of the convention.

But if he does cross that threshold by the time of the convention, he will only have done so sufficiently enough to become Vice President, not President.

Senator, if the serpentine logic of your so-called advisors were not bad enough...

Now, thanks to Geraldine Ferraro, and your campaign's initial refusal to break with her, and your new relationship with her -- now more disturbing still with her claim that she can now "speak for herself" about her vision of Senator Obama as some kind of embodiment of a quota...

If you were to seek Obama as a Vice President, it would be, to Ms. Ferraro, some kind of social engineering gesture, some kind of racial make-good.

Do you not see, Senator?

To Senator Clinton's supporters, to her admirers, to her friends for whom she is first choice, and her friends for whom she is second choice, she is still letting herself be perceived as standing next to, and standing by, racial divisiveness and blindness…

And worst yet, after what President Clinton said during the South Carolina primary, comparing the Obama and Jesse Jackson campaigns -- a disturbing, but only borderline remark...

After what some in the black community have perceived as a racial undertone to the "3 A-M" ad... a disturbing -- but only borderline interpretation...

And after that moment's hesitation in her own answer on 60 Minutes about Obama's religion -- a disturbing, but only borderline vagueness...

After those precedents, there are those who see a pattern... false, or true.

After those precedents, there are those who see an intent... false, or true.

After those precedents, there are those who see the Clinton campaign's anything-but-benign neglect of this Ferraro catastrophe -- falsely or truly -- as a desire to hear the kind of casual prejudice which still haunts this society voiced... and to not distance the campaign from it.

To not distance you from it, Senator!

To not distance you... from that which you as a woman, and Senator Obama as an African-American, should both know and feel with the deepest of personal pain!

Which you should both fight with all you have!

Which you should both insure, has no place in this contest!

This, Senator Clinton, is your campaign, and it is your name.

Grab the reins back from whoever has led you to this precipice, before it is too late.

Voluntarily or inadvertently, you are still awash in this filth.

Your only reaction has been to disagree, reject, and to call it regrettable.

Her only reaction has been to brand herself as the victim, resign from your committee, and insist she will continue to speak.

Unless you say something definitive, Senator, the former Congresswoman is speaking with your approval.

You must remedy this.

And you must... reject... and denounce... Geraldine Ferraro.

Good night, and good luck.

[Irvine511]

Originally posted by 2861U2
Since Obama has no experience, he's been running on how he has good judgment, right? Well is he really showing good judgment by continuing to go to this church and seeking the guidance of this Wright guy? Is he really showing good judgment by allowing his little girls to be subject to "America is evil" and "God damn America" and how we deserved 9/11?

I think not.

you know what's worse?

calling the Catholic church "the great whore"? or that Katrina was "the judgment of God against New Orleans" because it dared to allow a gay pride parade.

[corianderstem]

Originally posted by diamond
Alright fine I stand corrected on that, but on a larger point the USA Health Care is much more advanced then Canadas-were it not so rich Canadians wouldn't look to the USA for the best medical help.

You can liken the USA's Health Care to Canada's the same way you can liken Nordstroms to Walmart.

And for the liberals that turn this into a class envy war shame on you. Another man should never judge another fellow my the size
of
his
wallet.

Your first two paragraphs bring home the true point: you know what American health care is about? MONEY. The health care companies are in it to make money. Those that have money can afford health care.

And you're right. We shouldn't judge another person by their wealth. We should judge them by how they treat their fellow humans.

... oops, guess we're failing in America. We don't treat our poorer citizens very well when it comes to health care. This isn't about making things a class war. It's about caring for our own citizens. Gosh, how horrid that I would like the same health care to be available to all US citizens, no matter what their tax bracket.

Nordstrom's. Jesus.

[deep]

Originally posted by diamond

If you're fornuate to drive a 550 s Mercedes good on you; I happen to drive a Honda Accord EX and I 'm not envious of the Mercedes fellow.



dbs

using your automobile example

let's say the Mercedes is $80,000

and the Honda is $30,000


Well, in America the Auto Dealer gets paid $100,000 for each person

and he gives 35 % the Mercedes (a $80,000 car) for the $100,000

and then he give another 35% a Honda (a $30,000) car) for the $100,000


and then there are 30% that get nothing for the $100,000



now in Canada the auto dealers gets $30,000 for each person

and each person gets a $30,000 Honda



the Honda is a sufficient vehicle to get the people where they need to go.


The Mercedes is nicer, a little bit more comfortable, but at the end of the day the $30,000 Honda gets the job done.



But , the Americans say
look at us, we have $80,000 Mercedes

and leave out the part that the Auto Dealers are paid $100,000
and only deliver $80,000 to 35%.
$30,000 to 35%
and nothing to 30%

[Dreadsox]

What a double freaking standard!!!!! Geraldine has to resign and Hillary denounces her......

Yet this minister, who is in my opinion, spreads racial hatred, is allowed to stay associated with the Obama campaign.


Talk about your double flipping standards!!!!!!!!!

[Dreadsox]

http://abcnews.go.com/Video/playerIndex?id=4443230

[Irvine511]

i didn't really disagree all that much with the minister.



what Geraldie said was idiotic, and her continued defense of it, not to mention her higher standing in the american consciousness, made her a liability to the campaign. that's why she "resigned."

[U2isthebest]

Originally posted by Irvine511




do you endorse the comments of Reverend Hagee?

McCain certainly seems to.

Coming from a family that religiously (no pun intended) watches John Hagee, that is incredibly disheartening.

[BVS]

Well I hope he will be removed from his campaign after this...

Although, I don't disagree with everything he says, most won't be able to understand this type of message.

[Dreadsox]

To quote my bride the Obama supporter - this bothers her more after his wife's comments.

I think he is unelectable to this high an office.

[Dreadsox]

I do not think you have to disagree with everything he says, but this man is not come from the cloth of Dr. King. And the message is EXACTLY what the republican machine will use to destroy this campaign.

[Irvine511]

Originally posted by Dreadsox
I do not think you have to disagree with everything he says, but this man is not come from the cloth of Dr. King. And the message is EXACTLY what the republican machine will use to destroy this campaign.

i agree -- it would be smarter of Obama to distance himself from this guy. the Republican plan to "swift boat" Obama is to try to create some sort of revelation of him as some sort of unrepentant Black Panther radical who hates white people.

it's garbage, of course. but that is what they are going to try to do and scare away the blue collar whites who are still mildly racist in a non-specific sense.

[INDY500]

Originally posted by A_Wanderer
He could publish MoToons without being brought before the Alberta Human Rights and Citizenship Commission.

FREE EZRA LEVANT!!

[INDY500]

Originally posted by A_Wanderer
He could publish MoToons without being brought before the Alberta Human Rights and Citizenship Commission.

FREE EZRA LEVANT!!