US 2008 Presidential Campaign/Debate Discussion Thread - The Fifth Installment

[deep]

Originally posted by Irvine511
yes, i do think so.

If that is the case

it could be a 'brilliant strategy'

Everyone has been saying Obama can't beat McCain because of Wright

well, if Wright is neutralized now, the last week of April and is no longer a problem for Obama

it will smooth the way to the nomination for him

[Irvine511]

Originally posted by deep


If that is the case

it could be a 'brilliant strategy'

Everyone has been saying Obama can't beat McCain because of Wright

well, if Wright is neutralized now, the last week of April and is no longer a problem for Obama

it will smooth the way to the nomination for him

i think this is the hope. that Obama has to start whitening up to make himself more presentable to the bitter folks.

i hate it all. but one plays it as it lays.

and the white people have to buy it. we'll see.




what's most surprising, and what no one is paying attention to, is the fact that it's quite surprising that McCain isn't further ahead given all that's passed between HRC and BHO.

[deep]

Originally posted by Irvine511




i think this is the hope. that Obama has to start whitening up to make himself more presentable to the bitter folks.

i hate it all. but one plays it as it lays.

and the white people have to buy it. we'll see.

If one can not have success with the terrible American election process and understand how to appeal to the voters that will make the selection

they probably will not be successful in governing this country

btw, hate' is like taking poison and hoping the other person will die






I was outside of a Cheesecake Factory last night, (I DONT eat there) I took a quick survey, and out of 19 people- 10 were for Obama, 5 McCain and 4 for Hillary.
and you don't want to know how many Obama supporters were driving SUVs.

[Irvine511]

Originally posted by deep


If one can not have success with the terrible American election process and understand how to appeal to the voters that will make the selection

they probably will not be successful in governing this country

btw, hate' is like taking poison and hoping the other person will die

of the three candidates left in the race, i ask you, who has run the most successful campaign?

I was outside of a Cheesecake Factory last night, (I DONT eat there) I took a quick survey, and out of 19 people- 10 were for Obama, 5 McCain and 4 for Hillary.
and you don't want to know how many Obama supporters were driving SUVs.

such is life in Southern California. here in DC/NoVA, our Obama supporters ride bikes and have low flush toilets and eat lots of quinoa and jicama and brag about how they know so many interracial gay couples who've adopted Somali orphans.

though i note you're quick to distance yourself from the menu.

i hate it too. though i have relented, once in recent years, when my aunt and cousin wanted to have dinner there. but it was okay, see, because my aunt is Korean and my cousin is gay.

[Earnie Shavers]

There's going to be a great book or two to come from this race.

[Irvine511]

Originally posted by deep
btw, hate' is like taking poison and hoping the other person will die

and then you'll be ready on day one -- which has been pushed back to January 20, 2013.

[deep]

Originally posted by Irvine511
of the three candidates left in the race, i ask you, who has run the most successful campaign?

I was thinking about this earlier

that each candidate has had their own successes and reversals


Hillary's early lead was some what due to Bill Clinton's legacy, popularity that transferred to her and gave her some extra credibility

this worked for awhile, then Bill's ego? got in the way and started to drag her down

she regained her footing and now pretty much they are keeping Bill in check, she even has distanced herself from him somewhat by saying things like, "I am the candidate, not Bill"



Obama had to overcome his Arabic sounding name, and they fact they much of his family is Muslim. He did this with Wright and his association with his church. This helped Obama alot to be able to write and talk about his Christian experience. Then Wright started to drag Obama down.

Both Hillary and Obama got a lot of mileage out of their associations with their 'mentors'.

Both 'mentors' have become liabilities for them.


I would say McCain's mentor is his former self?

The independent image that he has cultivated over his career?

People have expected McCain to lose it and have a blow up.

He has remained cool this time around, even with the lobbyist/ sex scandal accusation.


So, in response to your question, I will say McCain has run a damn good campaign.

With Romney and Huck taking shots at him and Rush and the whole right wing am talkers

McCain should not even be still standing.

[deep]

Originally posted by Irvine511

such is life in Southern California. here in DC/NoVA, our Obama supporters ride bikes and have low flush toilets and eat lots of quinoa and jicama and brag about how they know so many interracial gay couples who've adopted Somali orphans.

though i note you're quick to distance yourself from the menu.

i hate it too. though i have relented, once in recent years, when my aunt and cousin wanted to have dinner there. but it was okay, see, because my aunt is Korean and my cousin is gay.

I don't HATE their food.

I just didn't want you to think I was eating there and have you start yelling at me.

also,
I am trying to lose 15 pounds.

and at my age I am really trying to make correct dietary choices so the last ten years of my life I will not be on 15 different prescriptions and using a walker

and dearheart,

all your ranting at people because of the restaurant they eat at or vehicle they drive is not very attractive or tolerant

and most likely will not win them over to Obama

[maycocksean]

Originally posted by deep


So you think Obama and Wright planned this?

For Wright to make these wacko remarks so Obama could be outraged?

You really think so?

Seems like there is too much of a possiblity of it all backfiring and making it harder for Obama.

But, I don't know. . .

One thing's for sure. Anyone who had illusions that Obama was on some sort of exalted plane above "normal" politicians should be disabused of that notion by now.

For the record, I never had such illusions.

[deep]

Originally posted by maycocksean


You really think so?

Seems like there is too much of a possiblity of it all backfiring and making it harder for Obama.

But, I don't know. . .

One thing's for sure. Anyone who had illusions that Obama was on some sort of exalted plane above "normal" politicians should be disabused of that notion by now.

For the record, I never had such illusions.

When Joyfulgirl put the theory out there

I said it had "too many moving parts" for me.

But, Obama has been stumbling since the "bitter religion clinging" remarks.

And it did give Obama an opportunity to have a Sister Souljah moment

[deep]

wow!!

wiki is ALREADY calling this Obama's Sister Soulijah

Other examples
On April 29th, 2008, Barack Obama gave a statement and a press conference repudiating the controversial remarks of his former pastor, Rev. Jeremiah Wright. It is notable that Obama at first took a far more nuanced principled stance on Rev. Wright with potentially heavy political costs. Rev. Wright's consequent performance in the national media and unflattering comments about Obama led to the April 29th press conference.

[deep]

Originally posted by deep

This did give Obama an opportunity to have a Sister Souljah moment

Ok, all you Obama maniac youngsters

check out Sister Soulijah

history does repeat itself

maybe Obama can pull this off.

[MrsSpringsteen]

Originally posted by MaxFisher



So it's Hillary's fault that Wright is a moron?

Everything is her fault

It sure looks like Rev Wright is putting his ego ahead of Sen Obama's future-his behavior indicates that

NY Times

April 29, 2008
Op-Ed Columnist
The Pastor Casts a Shadow
By BOB HERBERT

The Rev. Jeremiah Wright went to Washington on Monday not to praise Barack Obama, but to bury him.

Smiling, cracking corny jokes, mugging it up for the big-time news media — this reverend is never going away. He’s found himself a national platform, and he’s loving it.

It’s a twofer. Feeling dissed by Senator Obama, Mr. Wright gets revenge on his former follower while bathed in a spotlight brighter than any he could ever have imagined. He’s living a narcissist’s dream. At long last, his 15 minutes have arrived.

So there he was lecturing an audience at the National Press Club about everything from the black slave experience to the differences in sentencing for possession of crack and powdered cocaine.

All but swooning over the wonderfulness of himself, the reverend acts like he is the first person to come up with the idea that blacks too often get the short end of the stick in America, that the malignant influences of slavery and the long dark night of racial discrimination are still being felt today, that in many ways this is a profoundly inequitable society.

This is hardly new ground. The question that cries out for an answer from Mr. Wright is why — if he is so passionately committed to liberating and empowering blacks — does he seem so insistent on wrecking the campaign of the only African-American ever to have had a legitimate shot at the presidency.

On Sunday night, in an appearance before the Detroit N.A.A.C.P., Mr. Wright mocked the regional dialects of John F. Kennedy and Lyndon B. Johnson. I’m not sure how he felt that was helpful in his supposed quest to bring about a constructive discussion about race and reconciliation in the U.S.

What he is succeeding in doing is diminishing the stature of Senator Obama. A candidate who stands haplessly by as his former spiritual guide roams the country dropping one divisive bomb after another is in very little danger of being seen by most voters as the next J.F.K. or L.B.J.

The thing to keep in mind about Rev. Wright is that he is a smart fellow. He’s been a very savvy operator, politically and otherwise, for decades. He has built a thriving, politically connected congregation on the South Side of Chicago that has done some very good work over the years. Powerful people have turned to him for guidance and advice.

So it’s not like he’s naïve politically. He knows exactly what he’s doing. Forget the gibberish about responding to attacks on the black church. That is not what the reverend’s appearance before the press club was about. He was responding to what he perceives as an attack on him.

This whole story is about Senator Obama’s run for the White House and absolutely nothing else. Barack Obama went to Rev. Wright’s church as a young man and was blessed with the Christian bona fides that would be absolutely essential for a high-profile political career.

Faster than anyone could have imagined, the young Mr. Obama became Senator Obama and then the leading candidate for the Democratic presidential nomination. Then came the videotaped sermons and the roof caved in on Rev. Wright’s reputation. Senator Obama had no choice but to distance himself, and he did it as gently as he felt he could.

My guess is that Mr. Wright felt he’d been thrown under a bus by an ungrateful congregant who had benefited mightily from his association with the church and who should have rallied to his former pastor’s defense. What we’re witnessing now is Rev. Wright’s “I’ll show you!” tour.

For Senator Obama, the re-emergence of Rev. Wright has been devastating. The senator has been trying desperately to bolster his standing with skeptical and even hostile white working-class voters. When the story line of the campaign shifts almost entirely to the race-in-your-face antics of someone like Mr. Wright, Mr. Obama’s chances can only suffer.

Beyond that, the apparent helplessness of the Obama campaign in the face of the Wright onslaught contributes to the growing perception of the candidate as weak, as someone who is unwilling or unable to fight aggressively on his own behalf.

Hillary Clinton is taunting Mr. Obama about his unwillingness to participate in another debate. Rev. Wright is roaming the country with the press corps in tow, happily promoting the one issue Mr. Obama had tried to avoid: race.

Mr. Obama seems more and more like someone buffeted by events, rather than in charge of them. Very little has changed in the superdelegate count, but a number of those delegates have expressed concern in private over Mr. Obama’s inability to do better among white working-class voters and Catholics.

Rev. Wright is absolutely the wrong medicine for those concerns.

[anitram]

Originally posted by Irvine511


eat lots of quinoa

Quinoa FTW!

[Irvine511]

Originally posted by deep

and dearheart,

all your ranting at people because of the restaurant they eat at or vehicle they drive is not very attractive or tolerant

and most likely will not win them over to Obama

i know, it's difficult because i often work in metaphors, and some take things too literally.

i'll try to keep it simple in the future.

[MrsSpringsteen]

Borowitz Report April 30th

In an act that campaign insiders said indicated an irrevocable break with his former pastor, Sen. Barack Obama today de-friended the Rev. Jeremiah Wright on Facebook.

Sen. Obama's comments about Rev. Wright on Tuesday seemed to indicate that a total rift with his former minister was underway, but his decision to de-friend Rev. Wright on Facebook underscores the seriousness of his decision.

At a press conference in Gary, Indiana, chief Obama strategist David Axelrod said that Sen. Obama had to de-friend the Rev. Wright on Facebook "because he was getting really annoying."

"Every day, Rev. Wright was sending Sen. Obama new Facebook applications like 'What Superhero Are You?' and 'What 1980's Toy Are You?'" Mr. Axelrod said. "After awhile, enough is enough."

Rev. Wright, who was the commencement speaker today at Ringling Brothers and Barnum & Bailey Clown College in Sarasota, Florida, made no reference to Sen. Obama, instead saying that the United States government "is plotting to invade the Moon."

On CNN, Democratic National Committee Chairman Howard Dean expressed fears that if the primary campaign drags on much longer, "there may not be enough room under the bus for the candidates to throw their aides."

With Sen.Obama having thrown Rev. Wright and Samantha Power under the bus, and Sen. Clinton having thrown Geraldine Ferraro, Patti Solis Doyle, and Mark Penn under the bus, "we may need an additional bus," Mr. Dean said.

[MaxFisher]

Originally posted by deep
well, if Wright is neutralized now, the last week of April and is no longer a problem for Obama

it will smooth the way to the nomination for him

cue Obama's association with William Ayers...

http://www.city-journal.org/2008/eon0430jm.html

The Weathermen tried to kill my family.

John M. Murtagh

30 April 2008

During the April 16 debate between Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama, moderator George Stephanopoulos brought up “a gentleman named William Ayers,” who “was part of the Weather Underground in the 1970s. They bombed the Pentagon, the Capitol, and other buildings. He’s never apologized for that.” Stephanopoulos then asked Obama to explain his relationship with Ayers. Obama’s answer: “The notion that somehow as a consequence of me knowing somebody who engaged in detestable acts 40 years ago, when I was eight years old, somehow reflects on me and my values, doesn’t make much sense, George.” Obama was indeed only eight in early 1970. I was only nine then, the year Ayers’s Weathermen tried to murder me.

In February 1970, my father, a New York State Supreme Court justice, was presiding over the trial of the so-called “Panther 21,” members of the Black Panther Party indicted in a plot to bomb New York landmarks and department stores. Early on the morning of February 21, as my family slept, three gasoline-filled firebombs exploded at our home on the northern tip of Manhattan, two at the front door and the third tucked neatly under the gas tank of the family car. (Today, of course, we’d call that a car bomb.) A neighbor heard the first two blasts and, with the remains of a snowman I had built a few days earlier, managed to douse the flames beneath the car. That was an act whose courage I fully appreciated only as an adult, an act that doubtless saved multiple lives that night.

I still recall, as though it were a dream, thinking that someone was lifting and dropping my bed as the explosions jolted me awake, and I remember my mother’s pulling me from the tangle of sheets and running to the kitchen where my father stood. Through the large windows overlooking the yard, all we could see was the bright glow of flames below. We didn’t leave our burning house for fear of who might be waiting outside. The same night, bombs were thrown at a police car in Manhattan and two military recruiting stations in Brooklyn. Sunlight, the next morning, revealed three sentences of blood-red graffiti on our sidewalk: FREE THE PANTHER 21; THE VIET CONG HAVE WON; KILL THE PIGS.

For the next 18 months, I went to school in an unmarked police car. My mother, a schoolteacher, had plainclothes detectives waiting in the faculty lounge all day. My brother saved a few bucks because he didn’t have to rent a limo for the senior prom: the NYPD did the driving. We all made the best of the odd new life that had been thrust upon us, but for years, the sound of a fire truck’s siren made my stomach knot and my heart race. In many ways, the enormity of the attempt to kill my entire family didn’t fully hit me until years later, when, a father myself, I was tucking my own nine-year-old John Murtagh into bed.

Though no one was ever caught or tried for the attempt on my family’s life, there was never any doubt who was behind it. Only a few weeks after the attack, the New York contingent of the Weathermen blew themselves up making more bombs in a Greenwich Village townhouse. The same cell had bombed my house, writes Ron Jacobs in The Way the Wind Blew: A History of the Weather Underground. And in late November that year, a letter to the Associated Press signed by Bernardine Dohrn, Ayers’s wife, promised more bombings.

As the association between Obama and Ayers came to light, it would have helped the senator a little if his friend had at least shown some remorse. But listen to Ayers interviewed in the New York Times on September 11, 2001, of all days: “I don’t regret setting bombs. I feel we didn’t do enough.” Translation: “We meant to kill that judge and his family, not just damage the porch.” When asked by the Times if he would do it all again, Ayers responded: “I don’t want to discount the possibility.”

Though never a supporter of Obama, I admired him for a time for his ability to engage our imaginations, and especially for his ability to inspire the young once again to embrace the political system. Yet his myopia in the last few months has cast a new light on his “politics of change.” Nobody should hold the junior senator from Illinois responsible for his friends’ and supporters’ violent terrorist acts. But it is fair to hold him responsible for a startling lack of judgment in his choice of mentors, associates, and friends, and for showing a callous disregard for the lives they damaged and the hatred they have demonstrated for this country. It is fair, too, to ask what those choices say about Obama’s own beliefs, his philosophy, and the direction he would take our nation.

At the conclusion of his 2001 Times interview, Ayers said of his upbringing and subsequent radicalization: “I was a child of privilege and I woke up to a world on fire.”

Funny thing, Bill: one night, so did I.

John M. Murtagh is a practicing attorney, an adjunct professor of public policy at the Fordham University College of Liberal Studies, and a member of the city council in Yonkers, New York, where he resides with his wife and two sons

[joyfulgirl]

Originally posted by Irvine511




yes, i do think so.

he's already distanced himself from Wright's youtubed moments, and is obviously not from the same camp as Wright.

but, hey, they're both black, so they MUST be exactly alike.

this gives Obama the opportunity to make the point writ large, and it's kind of heroic, having to kill off a loved one, kind of Luke Skywalker-ish.

and, as i've said, i don't find Wright nearly as wack-o as the mainstream rightwing protestant evangelical pastors. Falwell, Dobson, Hagee, Robertson ... all are vastly more offensive and "wack-o" than Wright could ever hope to be.

but, again, these are white men. so it's okay.

I completely agree. There is NO WAY a man like Wright would deliberately try to spoil the campaign of the first ever black man who has a serious shot at the White House. There's just no way. There's a plan. Or I've watched the entire West Wing series one too many times. And if it's true, I certainly don't blame them one bit. I think it's a smart move. They have a 20 year close relationship--it doesn't make sense that they'd be blowing out publicly like this if it weren't part of a strategy.

[joyfulgirl]

Originally posted by maycocksean


One thing's for sure. Anyone who had illusions that Obama was on some sort of exalted plane above "normal" politicians should be disabused of that notion by now.

This is good, imo. I don't need or want a President I can have a beer with because the likelihood of me having a beer with the POTUS is nil. I want a President who can play the game because unfortunately that's how things get done in Washington. If he doesn't play the game that everyone else is playing, he goes nowhere. The best we can hope for a politician who would like to be above "normal" politicians is to play the game smarter, not dirtier.

[Strongbow]

Here is the latest polling results that Rasmussen has for the Red and Blue Battle Ground States:

Blue Battle Ground States:

Oregon

McCain 46%
Clinton 40%

McCain 42%
Obama 48%



Minnesota

McCain 42%
Clinton 47%

McCain 38%
Obama 52%


Michigan

McCain 45%
Clinton 42%

McCain 43%
Obama 42%



Wisconsin

McCain 50%
Clinton 39%

McCain 48%
Obama 46%



Pennsylvania

McCain 42%
Clinton 47%

McCain 44%
Obama 43%



New Hampshire

McCain 47%
Clinton 41%

McCain 46%
Obama 43%





Red Battle Ground States:



Florida

McCain 44%
Clinton 45%

McCain 53%
Obama 38%



Missouri

McCain 50%
Clinton 41%

McCain 53%
Obama 38%



Ohio

McCain 47%
Clinton 42%

McCain 47%
Obama 40%



Nevada

McCain 49%
Clinton 38%

McCain 48%
Obama 43%



New Mexico

McCain 46%
Clinton 43%

McCain 42%
Obama 45%



Colorado

McCain 50%
Clinton 36%

McCain 43%
Obama 46%



Iowa

McCain 51%
Clinton 36%

McCain 42%
Obama 46%



Although not a battle ground state, the current results of New Jersey show McCain leading both Obama and Clinton:

McCain 45%
Clinton 42%

McCain 46%
Obama 45%




Based on the above results for the 13 battleground states and one solid blue state, if the election were to happen today the electoral vote would break down as follows:

McCain VS. Obama

McCain 332

Obama 206


While McCain loses Iowa, New Mexico, and Colorodo to Obama, he picks up Pennsylvania, New Hampshire, Wisconsin, Michigan, and New Jersey which easily makes up for the loss of those three states.


McCain VS. Clinton

McCain 312

Clinton 226


While McCain loses Florida to Clinton, he picks up New Jersey, New Hampshire, Wisconsin, Michigan, and Oregon.



In the national polls, Rasmussen has the following:

McCain 46%
Obama 45%

McCain 45%
Clinton 45%


Gallup has the following for national polls:

McCain 46%
Obama 44%

McCain 45%
Clinton 46%




While the national polls are essentially tied up, according to Rasumussen, McCain has made some good penetration into the Blue Battle Ground States at the current time given him a substantial electoral lead based on the results. Not bad for a candidate that is described by Howard "Scream" Dean as a "weak candidate" and those that have stated that either Hillary or Obama would win in a landslide come November.