US 2008 Presidential Campaign/Debate Discussion Thread - The Fifth Installment

[joyfulgirl]

I just turned it on. FLAG PINS!! They're talking about flag pins.

 

[anitram]

"Do you believe in the flag?" was the question I think.

I honestly can't imagine any candidate in any other Western country being asked something this stupid and this irrelevant.

 

[Butterscotch]

Somebody really needs to start a 'worst gaffe' poll. There have been so many!

Nominations:

Hillary's false story of being shot at in Bosnia, as well as her nonexistent high school soccer career

Obama's preacher's comments

Obama's grandma 'typical white person'

Bill Clinton's racially sensitive remarks in SC

Geraldine Ferraro's comment that Obama was only where he is because he is black

Obama's small town 'bitter' comments

McCain stay in Iraq for 100 years

others please specify...

 

[2861U2]

So I'm watching the debate on ABC when I should be doing other more productive things, but just a comment - the American media is disgraceful. The two moderators (Gibson and Stephanopoulos) are either actually genuinely stupid or just complete hacks which is disappointing. Their questions are actually a stunning example of the contempt that the media has for the general public - to ask idiotic stupidities like what they've been asking is not even befitting a high school newspaper.

Awful, awful, awful. What an utter embarrassment. To have some of the finest educational institutions and journalism schools in the whole world and produce this is astonishing.

Why? Because they asked tough questions? This was the first Dem debate where they were actually challenged, and I thought Obama did awful.

 

[2861U2]

Somebody really needs to start a 'worst gaffe' poll. There have been so many!

Nominations:

Hillary's false story of being shot at in Bosnia, as well as her nonexistent high school soccer career

Obama's preacher's comments

Obama's grandma 'typical white person'

Bill Clinton's racially sensitive remarks in SC

Geraldine Ferraro's comment that Obama was only where he is because he is black

Obama's small town 'bitter' comments

McCain stay in Iraq for 100 years

others please specify...

Obama's "punished with a baby."

 

[anitram]

They asked ridiculous questions.

As a young guy in college, your critical thinking skills should have developed enough to recognize that.

But hey, let's discuss flag pins. Of all the pressing issues the country faces, it is only fitting that this was one of the first 5 questions asked. Trade policy, healthcare, environment and educational reforms are for those other suckers.

 

[2861U2]

They asked ridiculous questions.

As a young guy in college, your critical thinking skills should have developed enough to recognize that.

But hey, let's discuss flag pins. Of all the pressing issues the country faces, it is only fitting that this was one of the first 5 questions asked. Trade policy, healthcare, environment and educational reforms are for those other suckers.

I think the flag pin is legitimate. After his defense of not needing to wear one to prove his patriotism, I don't think it's a coincidence that one week before Pennsylvania it suddenly re-appears, at the same time that his patriotism is being slightly questioned due to Wright or his "bitter" comments.

To be honest, I didn't watch the whole thing, I was watching the White House dinner. But I did see Gibson ask hard, yes or no followup questions of both candidates, regarding the economy and taxes, for example.

I'm sure they touched on all the issues you mentioned, as well as the flag pin and other "other" stories making news.

 

[anitram]

Why the hell do you care who wears flag pins? What is it about Americans that makes this some kind of idiotic make it or break it issue? The woman actually asked him if he believes in the flag! If he were cheekier, he should have told her that no, he doesn't, he believes in Jesus, and so should she. That would have been about as absurd as her question was.

And you're "sure" they touched on "all the issues" I mentioned based on the fact you didn't watch it? They did NOT in fact touch on ANY of the issues I mentioned. Not a single one.

 

[2861U2]

Why the hell do you care who wears flag pins?

Personally, I don't. Neither of these people are getting my vote, and it has nothing to do with a flag pin. But it's interesting to try to get inside Obama's mind. There must be a reason he just starting wearing one.

And you're "sure" they touched on "all the issues" I mentioned based on the fact you didn't watch it? They did NOT in fact touch on ANY of the issues I mentioned. Not a single one.

Ok, fair enough. Apparently they didn't. Did you really need to hear about healthcare, though? What don't you know about both of their plans by now?

That being said, don't get me wrong- I'm all for talking about issues rather than campaign trail controversies.

 

[anitram]

Personally, I don't. Neither of these people are getting my vote, and it has nothing to do with a flag pin. But it's interesting to try to get inside Obama's mind. There must be a reason he just starting wearing one.

Well again, watch the debate. He didn't "just start wearing one" - he explicitly stated that a veteran had come up to him the other day and handed a specific one to him on behalf of an organization he runs and asked him to put it on at the event. He did. He wasn't wearing it after that.

There is something to be said for getting your facts straight.

 

[deep]

Somebody really needs to start a 'worst gaffe' poll. There have been so many!

Nominations:

Hillary's false story of being shot at in Bosnia, as well as her nonexistent high school soccer career [/B]

8/10

I think this is one that Hillary wishes did not happen.

Obama's grandma 'typical white person'
[/B]

8/10 Unfortunate he said this.
Until about this point Obama was seen as transcending race. The context that he would talk down his "grandma" rubbed many people the wrong way.

Net score 7/10

Obama's preacher's comments
[/B]

1/10
Obama did not say these things
or stand up and shout 'hallelujah!

9/10 His association and many references to Wright make this association costly for Obama with many voters

net score 4/10 It gave Obama the opportunity to give his Race Speech, this speech has been universally received as a great speech

Bill Clinton's racially sensitive remarks in SC [/B]

1/10 He really did not make any "racial" remarks

9/10 the remarks were spun as "racial" and it stuck in the press

net effect 8/10 perception is reality

Geraldine Ferraro's comment that Obama was only where he is because he is black[/B]

3/10 The remarks, while perhaps correct , were clumsy. and would serve no purpose. Why say it?

7/10 The perception - old white lady makes "bigoted" remark.

net score 6/10

Obama's small town 'bitter' comments [/B]

10/10 This is the worst "gaffe" of the campaign. Any argument that "there is some truth" in it is pointless. A candidates only job is to get votes. Why say anything derogatory about any segment of the electorate? Unless you have just bowed out and you don't care if you don't get their votes. A candidate can choose his remarks.
Why don't people in small towns vote for you? Answer, "We need to do a better job of getting our message out."

net score 5/10

this is dissipating, even a bad story has a "life" cycle.
this one will not completely go away but with as much talk about it.
People will get tired of hearing about it.

McCain stay in Iraq for 100 years
[/B]

5/10 This quote is the one that McCain's opponents like to quote the most. It may have loss him a couple of "independents". If is kind of funny 100 years.

net score 3/10 Everyone knows McCain is the candidate that supports the Iraq mission. So this is news.

 

[BVS]

There is something to be said for getting your facts straight.

Yep... It doesn't seem to be a virtue these days.

 

[2861U2]

but with as much talk about it.
People will get tired of hearing about it.

Well, as everyone has been saying, this is much more of a general election problem for Obama. The left and far-left who he's targeting right now find little if any problem with what he said. In a few months, it'll be back. I think it is a 10/10.

 

[BVS]

Obama's "punished with a baby."

Nobody wants their child to be pregnant at sixteen. I hear all walks of life conservative or liberal tell kids, "you are young and have your whole life in front of you, don't ruin it and get pregnant..."

 

[2861U2]

Nobody wants their child to be pregnant at sixteen. I hear all walks of life conservative or liberal tell kids, "you are young and have your whole life in front of you, don't ruin it and get pregnant..."

And I agree. And if Obama had said "you are young and have your whole life in front of you, don't ruin it and get pregnant..." it would have been fine. The great orator used a poor choice of words, once again. Not a major election-deciding gaffe, but a gaffe still.

 

[BVS]

And I agree. And if Obama had said "you are young and have your whole life in front of you, don't ruin it and get pregnant..." it would have been fine. The great orator used a poor choice of words, once again. Not a major election-deciding gaffe, but a gaffe still.

That's only if you take as a soundbyte, which I'm sure the blogs you read have, but when taken in context, it's nothing.

 

[Irvine511]

Somebody really needs to start a 'worst gaffe' poll. There have been so many!

Nominations:

Hillary's false story of being shot at in Bosnia, as well as her nonexistent high school soccer career

Obama's preacher's comments

Obama's grandma 'typical white person'

Bill Clinton's racially sensitive remarks in SC

Geraldine Ferraro's comment that Obama was only where he is because he is black

Obama's small town 'bitter' comments

McCain stay in Iraq for 100 years

others please specify...

because this is what the election should be about.

not health care, not Iraq, not the coming recession, not education.

it should be about who said what and when and how people are going to feel about it.

 

[Irvine511]

Awful, awful, awful. What an utter embarrassment. To have some of the finest educational institutions and journalism schools in the whole world and produce this is astonishing.

it's the tyranny of the bottom line.

when it's only about ratings, it's a race to the bottom.

 

[melon]

because this is what the election should be about.

not health care, not Iraq, not the coming recession, not education.

it should be about who said what and when and how people are going to feel about it.

Yup. And people wonder why we elect such terrible presidents!

 

[2861U2]

because this is what the election should be about.

not health care, not Iraq, not the coming recession, not education.

it should be about who said what and when and how people are going to feel about it.

Hey, I'd be totally fine talking about issues and not this other stuff. Does this mean you think McCain's age and Pastor Hagee and his "100 years" remark and his temper are irrelevant and should be off-limits, then?

 

[deep]

ok
I am watching now

Hillary gave a very good answer about VP
she said she would work very hard to elect the Dem Nominee.


Obama is still stumbling on his "bitter" gaffe

his team should have had him super prepped for this question, they had to expect it.

 

[Irvine511]

Hey, I'd be totally fine talking about issues and not this other stuff. Does this mean you think McCain's age and Pastor Hagee and his "100 years" remark and his temper are irrelevant and should be off-limits, then?

1. hagee is as relevant as wright, but the bigger issue, as i've noted, is that the Republican Party as a whole has a far closer relationship to the religious right -- hagee being one of it's leaders -- than the democrats do to any sort of preacher like Wright, and this manifests itself in dangerous, false science abstinence programs that endanger young lives. there are real consequences to being in bed with the religious right.

2. 100 years -- this is about Iraq.

3. his temper -- a less relevant issue, certainly

 

[deep]

If Obama is supposed to be about HOPE and DREAMING

BITTER is not tone he should be asserting

 

[deep]

"Hillary can Obama win?"

Hillary, "Yes,
but I think I would be the better candidate."

she is smooth

 

[Irvine511]

If Obama is supposed to be about HOPE and DREAMING

BITTER is not tone he should be asserting

again,

worrying about these things is what got Bush elected twice.

we can't be all things to all people, and when we try, we lose.

stand for something, and the rest can fuck off.

 

[Irvine511]

i didn't see the debate.

but reading through the blogs,

it seems everyone thinks it was a travesty and embarrassment

and an hour long pile up on Obama.

 

[deep]

I am just responding in real time to this debate

I was hoping he would revert back to the "positive" Barack from earlier in the campaign


he seems to be boxed in

 

[deep]

i didn't see the debate.

but reading through the blogs,

it seems everyone thinks it was a travesty and embarrassment

and an hour long pile up on Obama.

I have looked at the blogs and seen the same

Obama has the youth vote tied up
I think there is a lot of idealism and expectations with young people and this campaign

 

[Irvine511]

he seems to be boxed in

even the biggest Obama supporters i read are saying he tanked this one.

but that Clinton took Rovian politics to a new height, which means a new low for the campaign.

that ABC News did little more than carry water for the Republicans, and that John McCain is the big winner.

note the ABC News comments section, almost 7,000 comments so far, all decrying the debate:

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/DemocraticDebate/comments?type=story&id=4666956

 

[2861U2]

A poll on the Drudge Report shows Obama winning 62%-38%