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Old 01-23-2008, 08:02 PM   #861
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Originally posted by diamond
Obama will lose if he doesn't fight as dirty as the Clintons.

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The country will lose if he does.
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Old 01-23-2008, 08:19 PM   #862
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Watching Romney on Fox News right now...

I think he got a new template; his hair looks a little different tonight.
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Old 01-23-2008, 08:58 PM   #863
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I'm guessing there was a diamond edit involved with this post.
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Old 01-23-2008, 10:15 PM   #864
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Re: The Two Headed Monster

Quote:
Originally posted by Harry Vest
I don't know about you but I'm getting absolutley sick and tired of the Two Headed Monster that is the Clinton's. I'm appalled that "the first black president" is doing everything in his power to stop The First Black President. I just cannot stand his whining - they are like two spoiled little children having to get they're way. These two will stop at nothing. They are power hungry to a degree I have not seen in politics in a long long while - if ever. Don't get me wrong, I liked Bill (at least before a few weeks ago) and almost anything is better than Bush, but these two risk a backlash so big that it will propel the Republicans into the Whitehouse yet another four years. They're behavior is despicable and hopefully America is sick enough and smart enough to stop these two before it's too late. It's a real shame, this could have been such a great election...exciting, magical even, almost like RFK 1968 - but instead of an assasins bullet... this year it's a two headed monster.
I found the reference to RFK interesting in the context of your post. Prior to his, for lack of a better word, conversion (and I believe it was a genuine conversion. RFK was the first and only politician I adored), RFK was considered an absolutely ruthless politician. Perhaps in all the reading I've done about him, ruthless was the most consistent adjective attached to him. The Kennedys were Clintonesque (or the Clintons Kennedyesque) in their politics. I think you could find many comparisons--down to the relative of a former President carpetbagging a Senate seat in New York and the reverence of JFK (and to a lesser extent Bobby) among many blacks then.
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Old 01-23-2008, 10:35 PM   #865
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Re: The Two Headed Monster

Quote:
Originally posted by Harry Vest
I don't know about you but I'm getting absolutley sick and tired of the Two Headed Monster that is the Clinton's. I'm appalled that "the first black president" is doing everything in his power to stop The First Black President. I just cannot stand his whining - they are like two spoiled little children having to get they're way. These two will stop at nothing. They are power hungry to a degree I have not seen in politics in a long long while - if ever. Don't get me wrong, I liked Bill (at least before a few weeks ago) and almost anything is better than Bush, but these two risk a backlash so big that it will propel the Republicans into the Whitehouse yet another four years. They're behavior is despicable and hopefully America is sick enough and smart enough to stop these two before it's too late. It's a real shame, this could have been such a great election...exciting, magical even, almost like RFK 1968 - but instead of an assasins bullet... this year it's a two headed monster.

read this book:

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Old 01-24-2008, 06:31 AM   #866
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You know what? I think I'll concede that to you. I don't think it's racist now that I think it over again. I think what BVS said is partially true, but I think he was much more uncomfortable with the fact that it was a young audience, not a black one.
Are you talking about the South Carolina debate?
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Old 01-24-2008, 07:15 AM   #867
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Originally posted by verte76


Are you talking about the South Carolina debate?
He's talking about this video:
Quote:
Originally posted by Canadiens1160
Romney is such a tool I don't even know if that was more than slightly racist, but wow, just wow

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Old 01-24-2008, 07:25 AM   #868
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NY Times

January 24, 2008
Romney Leads in Ill Will Among G.O.P. Candidates
By MICHAEL LUO

TAMPA, Fla. — At the end of the Republican presidential debate in New Hampshire this month, when the Democrats joined the candidates on stage, Mitt Romney found himself momentarily alone as his counterparts mingled, looking around a bit stiffly for a companion.

The moment was emblematic of a broader reality that has helped shape the Republican contest and could take center stage again on Thursday at a debate in Florida. Within the small circle of contenders, Mr. Romney has become the most disliked.

With so much attention recently on the sniping between Senators Hillary Rodham Clinton and Barack Obama on the Democratic side, the almost visceral scorn directed at Mr. Romney by his rivals has been overshadowed.

“Never get into a wrestling match with a pig,” Senator John McCain said in New Hampshire this month after reporters asked him about Mr. Romney. “You both get dirty, and the pig likes it.”

Mike Huckabee’s pugilistic campaign chairman, Ed Rollins, appeared to stop just short of threatening Mr. Romney with physical violence at one point.

“What I have to do is make sure that my anger with a guy like Romney, whose teeth I want to knock out, doesn’t get in the way of my thought process,” Mr. Rollins said.

Campaign insiders and outside strategists point to several factors driving the ill will, most notably, Mr. Romney’s attacks on opponents in television commercials, the perception of him as an ideological panderer and resentment about his seemingly unlimited resources as others have struggled to raise cash.

Mr. Romney’s campaign contends that the hostility is driven by the fact that he has aggressively sought to win the early primaries, setting himself up as the chief antagonist, first, to Mr. Huckabee in Iowa and then to Mr. McCain in New Hampshire.

Mr. Romney continues to be a mountain in the paths of both men, as well as Rudolph W. Giuliani, to the nomination.

A spokesman for the Romney campaign, Kevin Madden, said, “I think it’s largely driven by the fact that everybody’s taught to tackle the guy on the field with the ball.”

But the New Hampshire debate was striking in that it amounted to a gang tackle of Mr. Romney, even though Mr. McCain was leading in polls in the state.

“The glee the other candidates go after Romney with is really unique,” said Dan Schnur, a Republican strategist who worked on Mr. McCain’s presidential campaign bid in 2000 but is not affiliated with any campaign now.

A senior adviser to Mr. Romney, Ronald C. Kaufman, pointed to his vast personal fortune and upstart status in the political world as breeding resentment.

“They think he didn’t pay his dues,” said Mr. Kaufman, who argued that Mr. Romney had done so by working tirelessly in his campaign.

In stark contrast to Mr. Romney, Mr. McCain seems to be universally liked and respected by the other Republican contenders, even if they disagree with him.

Mr. Schnur used a schoolyard analogy to compare Mr. Romney, the ever-proper Harvard Law School and Business School graduate, to Mr. McCain, the gregarious rebel who racked up demerits and friends at the Naval Academy.

“John McCain and his friends used to beat up Mitt Romney at recess,” Mr. Schnur said.

Although Mr. McCain has now started to draw some cautious challenges from Mr. Giuliani in Florida, he has a longstanding friendship with him, dating from 1998, when they first met.

Mr. McCain also seems to have fallen into a mutual nonaggression pact with Mr. Huckabee, who has been almost fawning in his compliments for Mr. McCain and dripping with contempt when discussing Mr. Romney.

Mr. McCain has drawn criticism as being excessively personal in striking back at Mr. Romney. So he has tried to play down any notion that he harbors special animosity toward him, saying he simply does not know him well.

But Mr. McCain’s advisers, whose distaste for Mr. Romney is vivid, say Mr. McCain has been irked by what they perceive as misleading attacks and Mr. Romney’s willingness to say anything to be elected.

“He doesn’t play by the same rules the rest of us do,” said Charlie Black, a senior McCain strategist.

McCain aides were positively gleeful last week as they watched replays aboard their campaign bus of a heated back and forth between Mr. Romney and an Associated Press reporter who challenged an assertion about the influence of lobbyists in his campaign.

Nevertheless, before he criticizes rivals, Mr. Romney often pauses to say that the man is a “friend,” and he seems to believe it.

Mr. Giuliani endorsed Mr. Romney in his race for Massachusetts governor in 2002 and campaigned for him. Mr. Romney got to know Mr. McCain while running the 2002 Winter Olympic Games and went to Washington to seek federal money.

Mr. Romney probably knows Mr. Huckabee the best, aides said, as the two were governors at the same time and ran into each other often through the Republican Governors Association and the National Governors Association.

Paradoxically, sometimes the enmity between them appears to be the sharpest.

Aides to Mr. Huckabee say he did not get to know Mr. Romney very well as a governor, finding him distant at meetings. The aides said they were also irritated that Mr. Romney did not call after Mr. Huckabee’s victory in Iowa.

Mr. Romney shrugged off any tension with his rivals when asked about it.

“You know,” he said, “in this process, people have a real battle for success. But I consider these guys friends.”
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Old 01-24-2008, 09:37 AM   #869
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Quote:
Originally posted by MrsSpringsteen
NY Times

January 24, 2008



Mr. Romney’s campaign contends that the hostility is driven by the fact that he has aggressively sought to win the early primaries,

A senior adviser to Mr. Romney, Ronald C. Kaufman, pointed to his vast personal fortune and upstart status in the political world as breeding resentment.

“They think he didn’t pay his dues,” said Mr. Kaufman, who argued that Mr. Romney had done so by working tirelessly in his campaign.


Mr. Romney shrugged off any tension with his rivals when asked about it.

“You know,” he said, “in this process, people have a real battle for success. But I consider these guys friends.”

Yes it is unfair how they pile on Romney.
I think Mitt handles himself well with his attitude towards his competitors, found in this verse:

Luke 6:28

28Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.

dbs
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Old 01-24-2008, 09:59 AM   #870
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A liberal talk show host's views on Bill Clinton's integrity:



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Old 01-24-2008, 10:24 AM   #871
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I have to say it's really fun watching the Clintons and Obama go after each other. And I'm not just saying that as a Republican who loves seeing them beat each other up. I was only 4-12 when Clinton was president, so I never really experienced how the Clinton machine works, but now I see how ambitious, powerful and relentless they both are, and it seems to always work to their advantage. It'll be interesting to see how this all plays out, that's for sure.
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Old 01-24-2008, 12:04 PM   #872
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A friend of mine sent me this link today.

http://www.shutupbill.com/billclinton.html
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Old 01-24-2008, 01:16 PM   #873
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First Norris backed Huckabee, and now this:

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php...show_article=1
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Old 01-24-2008, 02:33 PM   #874
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All of this Clinton bashing does come with an asterisk from me: I'd still take Clinton any day of the week over Bush, and twice on Sunday.
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Old 01-24-2008, 02:40 PM   #875
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The real John McCain?:

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Old 01-24-2008, 03:25 PM   #876
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Quote:
McCain Says Clinton Would ‘Surrender’

The New York Times, January 24, 2008

Senator John McCain launched into a pointed critique of his Senate colleague Hillary Rodham Clinton today, saying that “for the first time in political history” a presidential candidate has called for outright surrender in a war. “Candidate Clinton has called for surrender and waving the white flag,” he said during an appearance in West Palm Beach. “I think it’s terrible. I think it’s terrible.”

His remarks come as he is campaigning hard in Florida, hoping to defeat Rudolph W. Giuliani and keep the momentum from his victory last Saturday in South Carolina. In his remarks, he seemed to suggest Mrs. Clinton would be the nominee, and was perhaps using her as a vehicle to rally Republican voters in the run-up to the primary. “I look forward to the debate with Senator Clinton on that issue. Americans don’t want to throw away the hard-earned gains we have made against Al Qaeda and Iraq. If Senator Clinton has her way, Al Qaeda will trumpet to the world that they have beaten the United States. For us to do what Senator Clinton wants us to do — that is to wave the white flag -– I cannot guarantee United States security in the region or in the United States.”

Phil Singer, a spokesman for Senator Clinton, emailed this response: “Senator Clinton and Senator McCain disagree. Senator McCain says it would be fine with him if our troops were in Iraq for 100 years. Senator Clinton wants to end the war and will bring our troops home quickly and responsibly. That’s the best way to defend our nation and protect our national security interests.”
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Old 01-24-2008, 03:51 PM   #877
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yay! an entire campaign based on reductionist statements on Iraq!

well, the Clintons certainly have proven adept at the worst kind of mud slinging, obfuscations, distortions, and outright lies. the only good thing about an Obama defeat would be to watch potentially the two most narcissistic people of their generation turn their vicious, nasty politics on the Republicans.

and McCain should be worried. as the primaries have shown, he's not running against Hillary. he'll either run against Obama, or against The Clintons.

maybe it's the grim january weather, maybe it's the end of the week and i'm tired, or maybe i just need a snack, but the idea of having to vote for any of these loathsome people -- Obama excluded -- is enough to make me want to crawl under the covers and stay there.

in a country of 300m people, bursting with innovation and ideas, a country that rewards initiative and ambition, *this* is all we get?
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Old 01-24-2008, 04:16 PM   #878
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Quote:
Voters Show Darker Mood Than in 2000

By KEVIN SACK
New York Times, January 24


KANSAS CITY, Mo. — Whatever their ideological differences this election year, Americans seem able to agree on one thing: the political landscape being crisscrossed by the 2008 candidates is barely recognizable as the one traveled by George W. Bush and Al Gore a mere eight years ago.

Obviously, Sept. 11 and its aftermath have changed the country in countless and irretrievable ways. But even beyond the emergence of war and national security as pre-eminent concerns, there has been a profound reordering of domestic priorities, a darkening of the country’s mood and, in the eyes of many, a fraying of America’s very sense of itself. While not universal, that tone pervaded dozens of interviews conducted over the last week with Americans of all political stripes in 8 of the 24 states that hold primaries or caucuses on Feb. 5, as well as with historians, elected officials, political strategists and poll takers. As the candidates fan out to New York and California and here to the heartland, they are confronting an electorate that is deeply unsettled about the United States’ place in the world and its ability to control its own destiny.

Since World War II, the assumption of American hegemony has never been much in doubt. That it now is, at least for some people, has given this campaign a sense of urgency that was not always felt in 2000, despite the dramatic outcome of that race. Several writers and historians remarked on the psychological impact of such a jarring end to the Pax Americana, just as it seemed that victory in the cold war might usher in prolonged prosperity and relative peace (save the occasional mop-up operation). Its confluence with an era of unparalleled technological innovation had only heightened the nation’s sense of post-millennial possibility.

Now, Americans feel a loss of autonomy, in their own lives and in the nation. Their politics are driven by the powerlessness they feel to control their financial well-being, their safety, their environment, their health and the country’s borders. They question whether each generation will continue to ascend the economic ladder. That the political system seems so impotent only deepens their frustration and their insistence on results.

As she considers this campaign, Susan C. Powell, a 47-year-old training consultant who lives in a Kansas City suburb, said that what she feels is not so much hopelessness as doom. “I know plenty of people who are doing worse than they were,” Ms. Powell said, “and nobody’s helping them out. People’s incomes are not keeping pace with inflation. People can’t afford their homes. People in their 30s and 40s, middle-income, and they don’t have jobs they can count on or access to health care. How can we say that we’re the greatest country on earth and essentially have the walking wounded?”

Carter Eskew, a top strategist for Mr. Gore in 2000, recalled the factors that drove public opinion then — like a modest increase in fuel prices and the bursting of the technology stock bubble — as “naïvely quaint by today’s standards.” His Republican counterpart, Mark McKinnon, who advised Mr. Bush in 2000 and now works for Senator John McCain, said the electorate saw this campaign as far more consequential. The change in tone came through in interviews in coffee bars, barbecue joints and shopping malls as people vented about unaffordable health premiums, porous international borders, freakish weather, government eavesdropping, Chinese imports and customer service calls that are answered in India.

...Public opinion polling is also detecting an erosion of the country’s self- image. A CBS News/ New York Times poll taken this month found that 75% of respondents thought the country had “pretty seriously gotten off on the wrong track,” up from 44% in May 2000. Not surprisingly, that judgment varies by political affiliation. But even 42% of Republicans agreed, not far shy of the 52% who said so in 1999, in the twilight of an eight-year Democratic presidency.

...This year’s dissatisfaction seems to have less to do with any fundamental shift in the nation’s ideological and partisan leanings than with its broadening displeasure with the Bush administration’s handling of the war and the economy. In CBS News/New York Times polls taken in February 2000 and January this year, the percentages of respondents who aligned themselves with a given party or ideology were almost precisely the same.

It is not yet clear how the discontent may be affecting the primary races. The Republican race remains a muddle, and the one Democratic candidate who has made the most populist appeal to change the nation’s direction — former Senator John Edwards — remains a distant third. So far, at least, his message has not caught on in a race that has been marked more by the historic nature of the campaigns run by Senators Barack Obama and Hillary Rodham Clinton. Nonetheless, any of the Democrats would represent a sharp break with the policies of the last eight years, and polls suggest that the Democrats began this year with a political advantage they could not have imagined eight years ago. Asked a year before the 2000 election which party’s candidate they were likely to support, respondents were evenly divided. Asked the same question this month, they favored the Democrats by 18 percentage points. Much of the shift is thought to have been among independents. That swing, fueled by antiwar sentiment, helped the Democrats win control of Congress in 2006. In some states, there is evidence of its impact well down the ballot. In Denver’s once reliably Republican suburbs, for instance, Democratic voter registration has grown since 2000 at 10 times the rate of Republican registration.

...The issues have also shifted. Of the top eight political concerns found in a CBS News/New York Times poll this month, only three were on the list eight years ago. Terrorism, immigration, the environment and fuel prices did not register a blip back then. (The other top concern identified in recent polling was the Iraq war.) In the 2000 campaign, it was possible for Mr. Bush to deride Mr. Gore’s environmentalism to considerable effect. Eight years later, Mr. Gore is a Nobel laureate, and coiled light bulbs and hybrid cars are status symbols. Since the campaign of 2000, the United States has lost 4400 men and women in wars overseas, and nearly 3000 people in the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001. Hispanics have become the country’s largest minority, accounting for nearly half of annual population growth. Gasoline prices have doubled, and the home foreclosure rate has increased by 55%. The proportion of Americans without health insurance, which was declining at decade’s end, has grown by 2 percentage points. Both the unemployment and poverty rates are a percentage point higher. War spending has helped convert a $236 billion federal budget surplus into a $163 billion deficit (reduced from $413 billion in 2004).

Many of those interviewed remembered the emphasis placed in the 2000 campaign on restoring personal integrity to the Oval Office. Several volunteered that the focus of the current campaign should be on the rectitude of the country’s role in the world. “In 2000,” said Philip R. Dupont, a Kansas City lawyer, “one of Bush’s big platforms was that he’d restore honesty and integrity to the White House. Then he went out and attacked a sovereign nation that had done nothing to us.”

As issues like health care, climate change and immigration have become more urgent, Americans seem less willing to dismiss failures of government and political polarization as business as usual. It feels more personal to them now, and they are demanding results. Erwin Epple, who owns a pizza franchise in Knoxville, Tenn., boiled with frustration as he vowed to vote for the candidate who convinces him that he or she is most able to solve problems. “I’m sick and tired of the party line and the platitudes,” he said. “I’m hearing hope. I’m hearing trust. But I’m not hearing solutions.”
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Old 01-24-2008, 05:12 PM   #879
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dennis is dropping out he's gonna announce it tonight.
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Old 01-24-2008, 05:27 PM   #880
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All of this Clinton bashing does come with an asterisk from me: I'd still take Clinton any day of the week over Bush, and twice on Sunday.
Fuck

Yes.
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