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Old 01-15-2008, 05:01 AM   #701
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Originally posted by 2861U2
And they say it's the Republicans who exploit race...

I thought the Democrats didn't give a crap about race, but I guess I'm wrong.
Unfortunately, I'm forced to agree with you.

The "black folks can make fine speeches but it's the white people who get things done" argument isn't pretty. But then the Clintons wouldn't be the first--remember Joe Biden?
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Old 01-15-2008, 06:03 AM   #702
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They keep excluding Kucinich from debates. It's not fair.
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Old 01-15-2008, 06:56 AM   #703
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Originally posted by maycocksean

The "black folks can make fine speeches but it's the white people who get things done" argument isn't pretty.
Having seen what things white people in the US get done, I'll take my chances with another race.

This kind of campaigning is truly nauseating.
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Old 01-15-2008, 07:25 AM   #704
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The only people benefiting from all of this nastiness are the Republicans. It's so distasteful, which of course is what the media loves and why they are playing it up.

(CNN) — As both Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama tried to lower the tension after days of charged rhetoric over race, a congressional supporter of Clinton's presidential bid called the Illinois senator's remarks attacking her over recent comments about President Lyndon Johnson and the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr. “absolutely stupid.”

"How race got into this thing is because Obama said ‘race,’” New York Rep. Charlie Rangel, one of the highest-ranking African-Americans in Congress, said in an interview on NY1.

“But there is nothing that Hillary Clinton has said that baffles me. I would challenge anybody to belittle the contribution that Dr. King has made to the world, to our country, to civil rights, and the Voting Rights Act,” said Rangel. “But for him to suggest that Dr. King could have signed that act is absolutely stupid. It's absolutely dumb to infer that Doctor King, alone, passed the legislation and signed it into law."

Rangel’s remarks came in response to Sunday comments from Obama, who told an audience at a Nevada campaign event: "I am baffled by that statement by the Senator. She made an ill-advised statement about Dr. King, suggesting that Lyndon Johnson had more to do with the Civil Rights Act. For them to somehow suggest that we're interjecting race as a consequence of a statement she made, that we haven't commented on, is pretty hard to figure out."

The New York senator has since tried to explain the intent of her remarks was not to diminish the contribution of King, but to point out the benefit of experience in enacting positive legislation.

Rangel also implied that Obama’s admission of prior drug use in his autobiography may have had a financial motive: "I assume that the book was not written for political purposes. It was honest….It was a big mistake for him to have done it [used drugs.] For him to be honest enough to write about it, I guess he thought it might sell books."
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Old 01-15-2008, 07:36 AM   #705
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LAS VEGAS — NBC News said Monday it will appeal a judge's ruling rather than include Democratic presidential hopeful Dennis Kucinich in a candidates' debate in Nevada.

"We disagree with the judge's decision and are filing an appeal," said a statement provided by Jeremy Gaines, a vice president for MSNBC, sponsor of Tuesday night's debate. Gaines said the parent network would seek an immediate hearing before the Nevada Supreme Court.

Hours earlier, Senior Clark County District Court Judge Charles Thompson ruled that Kucinich, an Ohio congressman, must be allowed to participate. If he is excluded, Thompson said he would issue an injunction to stop the televised debate.

Kucinich's lawyer had argued that MSNBC at first invited him to participate, then last week reversed course and told him he could not.

A lawyer for the network said MSNBC decided to go with the top three candidates after the Iowa and New Hampshire primaries.

Thompson called it a matter of fairness and said Nevada voters will benefit by hearing from more than just top contenders Hillary Rodham Clinton, Barack Obama and John Edwards.

The cable network and the Democratic Party have promoted the debate as a chance for the candidates to be questioned about issues from Nevada's minority communities. Tim Russert and Brian Williams are the scheduled moderators.

Kucinich learned of the judge's decision when he was handed a note during an interview with Fox Business Network's Neil Cavuto.

"Holy smokes! I just found out. I have to get off the phone now. I have to make plans to go to Nevada," Kucinich said.
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Old 01-15-2008, 12:03 PM   #706
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Quote:
Originally posted by verte76
They keep excluding Kucinich from debates. It's not fair.
Yea it is ridiculous how they also have been excluding Mike Gravel and Duncan Hunter. Ron Paul was also excluded from the FoxNews NH which is absolutely unfair and biased considering that he had 10% of the vote in Iowa.

And its not only excluding. With most of the debates last year, people like Ron Paul, Mike Gravel and Dennis Kucinich always got the fewest questions. And in all these debates, these people most of the time have to stand on the far sides of the stage, which may sound silly to bring up, but it just shows how much the media wants to not give attention to them. What makes me angry is that Fred Thompson got so much attention, even before he announced his candidacy, even though he announced it relatively late, even though he wasn't in many of the earlier debates because of this, and the worst part of it is that the main reason he got all the attention is because he is an actor. Even now, while he did the worst in the amount of combined votes in Iowa+NH and Giuliani did the second worst, they both still get more attention in the media than Ron Paul does.

The media

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Old 01-15-2008, 12:31 PM   #707
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Quote:
Originally posted by maycocksean


Unfortunately, I'm forced to agree with you.

The "black folks can make fine speeches but it's the white people who get things done" argument isn't pretty. But then the Clintons wouldn't be the first--remember Joe Biden?
That is one way to spin it

do you really believe this?




You disregard Clinton's record on race relations?

Do you believe Clinton in office did not deserve the respect and support he got from people for his actions on race?

Having lived through the 60s, I was born in 1955
my perception is that MLK jr was one of the more effective leaders for change, absolutely the most prominent.

Yes, this is a campaign and both sides are using every comparison and perception to their advantage.

Don't forget Mitt watched his Dad march with MLK jr.

Anyways, I don't think it is unreasonable for Hillary to suggest that a powerful, effective speaker-leader is the "change agent" and a "savvy, risk taking, politician" is the person that completes what the "change agent" started.
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Old 01-15-2008, 12:40 PM   #708
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Quote:
Originally posted by anitram


Having seen what things white people in the US get done, I'll take my chances with another race.

This kind of campaigning is truly nauseating.

This is sound reasoning???

Because African Americans were disenfranchised under the "white" president Bill Clinton.

So vote race


Alan Keyes will gladly accept your vote.
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Old 01-15-2008, 08:28 PM   #709
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Originally posted by deep


That is one way to spin it

do you really believe this?
Actually, I don't think there was anything intentional in Clinton's statement. BUT. . .though she may not have meant to say it, what she said is, "if Obma's MLK than I'm LBJ and let's face it, MLK made some pretty speeches but it was LBJ that got the job done." In otherwords, if we elect Obama we get pretty speeches. If we elect her, the job gets done.

I definitely don't think that the Clinton's have any conscious issues with racism. I would disagree with 2861U2 that the Democrats will make a deliberate campaign strategy decisions that use race (i.e. Willie Horton) but I would agree that racism is not a soley Republican disease. When racism comes out on the left, it usually comes out unintentionally (Joe Biden for example) and that is what could be argued happened with Hillary's recent comments. The idea that black people are great "entertainers" but that white people are better suited for the mental agility required for leadership is not unheard of.




Quote:
Originally posted by deep
Anyways, I don't think it is unreasonable for Hillary to suggest that a powerful, effective speaker-leader is the "change agent" and a "savvy, risk taking, politician" is the person that completes what the "change agent" started.
But honestly, Deep, you know Hillary wasn't engaging in casual conversation here. She was trying to make a point: That'd she'd do a better job than Obama. Unfortunately, it ended up reflecting poorly on Dr. King.

Truthfully, I think it's a whole lot of fuss about not much, but I guess that's the nature of politics these days.
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Old 01-16-2008, 02:10 AM   #710
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While I grimaced and cringed when I first heard about the MLK/LBJ remark, I was still surprised when the story proceeded to dominate the national political news for several days (with some worthy op-eds and blog pieces emerging as a result)--I got the feeling a lot of pundits had been itching for an excuse to analyze the Democratic contest in terms of race (and to a lesser extent, gender) without risking seeming crass by raising those issues themselves. I wouldn't necessarily say such 'slip-ups' are a first for the Clintons (Bill Clinton's '92 campaign gave us the phrase 'Sister Souljah moment,' after all) but needless to say, the nature of the circumstances made this particular one glaringly visible. I more or less said what I thought about Hillary's analogy in the Thatcher thread, but I do understand where deep's coming from--an analogy-in-response-to-an-analogy is almost by definition open to multiple interpretations, 'gut-response' as well as analytical, and while I'd be disinclined to argue anyone else's much beyond suggesting other possibilities, I'm likewise reluctant to definitively pin down any one as the 'most likely' subconscious explanation myself. I do think Hillary has been getting more intense scrutiny of everything she does in the press in general than is fair, but on the other hand, Obama was put in a tight spot by the tensions all that coverage stirred too because, realistically, as a black man he can't afford to be associated with any perceived 'undue anger' from his supporters, lest that scare off white voters. (Especially after her campaign pounced on the memo from his SC press secretary and tried to parlay it into an implication that his campaign had somehow engineered the entire collective response to her remarks.)

Mostly, I hope both of them will proceed at this point to focus on debating each other on the issues--poverty, education, the criminal justice system, and so forth--and stop running so much of a 'personality campaign' ("I'm the vision candidate, she's the paper-shuffler" "I'm the experience candidate, he's the bearer of false hope"--actual phrases used by both of them towards each other there).
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Old 01-16-2008, 06:57 AM   #711
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Quote:
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This is sound reasoning???
I think about 65% of the time, you read what you want to read in people's comments regardless of what is actually there.
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Old 01-16-2008, 07:07 AM   #712
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Who made the MLK remark?
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Old 01-16-2008, 07:14 AM   #713
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I'm just sick about Romney winning Michigan. I still don't know who won for the Democrats.
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Old 01-16-2008, 07:42 AM   #714
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I'm just sick about Romney winning Michigan. I still don't know who won for the Democrats.
Well, it would help if Michigan hadn't had its delegates confiscated this time out by the DNC for being a bad little state
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Old 01-16-2008, 10:27 AM   #715
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Old 01-16-2008, 11:21 AM   #716
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This is for laughs (and Irvine):

http://slatev.com/player.html?id=1377935786
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Old 01-16-2008, 12:31 PM   #717
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REPUBLICAN RIVALS SHARE ONE BOND: ALL LOSERS

By CHARLES HURT

January 16, 2008 -- WASHINGTON - With this field of losers, it's no wonder the race for the GOP presidential nomination remains completely up for grabs.
The only common bond among the Republicans running is that each one has managed to humiliate himself with disastrous defeats at some point or another.

These guys have no running game, no passing game, no nothing.

Mike Huckabee got the ball in Iowa and promptly dropped it. John McCain got it in New Hampshire and fumbled it last night in Michigan.

Now Mitt Romney has the ball and is destined to drop it in South Carolina on Saturday.

But there's only one GOP candidate that beats all the rest at being a loser: Rudy Giuliani.

He has perfected the art of underperforming to the point that his campaign now insists it was all part of his game plan.

He's been reduced to watching from the sidelines and praying for other people to lose - like McCain in Michigan so his momentum would be stalled - rather than getting in the game and winning himself.

In fact, Rudy's campaigned so badly that the latest poll shows him losing New Jersey, which had a front-row seat for his shining moment during 9/11.

Even fringe candidate Ron Paul - the million-to-one long shot everybody picks on to make themselves look good - is beating Giuliani.

Paul, who finished ahead of Giuliani in Michigan, currently has twice as much claim on the Republican nomination as "America's Mayor."
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Old 01-16-2008, 12:46 PM   #718
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This is for laughs (and Irvine):

http://slatev.com/player.html?id=1377935786

what a great movie. has Reese ever been better?
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Old 01-16-2008, 02:03 PM   #719
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This is for laughs (and Irvine):

http://slatev.com/player.html?id=1377935786
Cute!
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Old 01-16-2008, 08:44 PM   #720
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I loved this Toles cartoon the other day.
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