US 2008 Presidential Campaign/Debate Discussion Thread #6

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They're too long to post, but the New York Times has full transcripts of Obama's speeches and subsequent question-and-answer sessions in Amman and Sderot.

Amman

Sderot
 
McCain denies he misstated timing of Iraq surge
By TOM RAUM, Associated Press Writer

Republican John McCain pushed back on Tuesday against Democratic criticism that he misstated the troop buildup ordered by President Bush began, saying elements were put in place before Bush announced the strategy in early 2007.

He told reporters during an unscheduled stop in a super market that, what the Bush administration calls "the surge" was actually "made up of a number of components," some of which began before the president's order for more troops.

It's all a matter of semantics, he suggested.

McCain said Army Col. Sean MacFarland started carrying out elements of a new counterinsurgency strategy as early as December 2006.

At issue are McCain's comments in a Tuesday interview with CBS. The Arizona senator disputed Democrat Barack Obama's contention that a Sunni revolt against al-Qaida combined with the dispatch of thousands more U.S. combat troops to Iraq to produce the improved security situation there. McCain called that a "false depiction."

Democrats jumped on his comments. They said McCain's remarks showed he was out of touch, because the rebellion of U.S.-backed Sunni sheiks against al-Qaida terrorists in Iraq's Anbar province was under way well before Bush announced in January 2007 his decision to send 30,000 additional U.S. troops to Iraq.

McCain asserted he knew that and didn't commit a gaffe. "A surge is really a counterinsurgency made up of a number of components. ... I'm not sure people understand that `surge' is part of a counterinsurgency."

Speaking on CBS Tuesday of a Sunni sheik who approached Col. MacFarland, McCain said, "Because of the surge, we were able to go out and protect that sheik and others. And it began the Anbar awakening."

On Wednesday McCain continued to try to portray his opponent as naive on Iraq while the Illinois Democrat is visiting the war zone, the Middle East and Europe.

"I am again deeply disappointed that Sen. Obama will not recognize that the surge has succeeded," McCain said. He said that "no rational person" could think otherwise.

McCain said he had been briefed by Col. MacFarland, commander of 1st Brigade, 1st Armored Division, in December 2006 to discuss the strategy that remains in force today. Bush announced the surge in January 2007 and the first of the new troops began arriving in Iraq in March 2007.

McCain made an unscheduled stop at "Kings Supermarket" in a shopping mall here, and greeted shoppers and commiserated with them on the soaring costs of both food and fuel.

"Among other challenges, Americans face the price of milk at over $4 a gallon," McCain told reporters as he stood in front of a dairy case.



is this a pattern? or is "the surge" whatever we want to call anything that hasn't been a disaster? we are now to credit *everything* that happened to the influx of 30,000 more troops, even before they got there, lest we disrespect our brave men and women in uniform?
 
Random off-topic question: is anyone else besides me bothered by the fact that it's no longer possible to quote-box text from another website (like an article or blog) within your post without having it automatically italicized? I've always liked having the option to visually distinguish such things by putting them in a quote box, but I find that having everything in italics slows down my reading speed to an annoying degree.

I ask because if others besides me are bothered by this, I can see if anything can be done about it (though that may not be possible), but I don't want to make a big deal out of it if it's just me whining. FYM has far more sourced-from-elsewhere text in it than the other forums, so I figured if it were a problem anywhere, it'd be here.
 
is this a pattern? or is "the surge" whatever we want to call anything that hasn't been a disaster? we are now to credit *everything* that happened to the influx of 30,000 more troops, even before they got there, lest we disrespect our brave men and women in uniform?

It's all SEMANTICS.

He clearly said that the surge BEGAN the awakening, which I could have bought as another gaffe. The fact is reiterating him makes him either a liar or a deluded old fool.
 
and the good judgment thing - a myth?

Well, there's good judgement and perfect judgement. . .I think you're expecting the latter.

But nonetheless, I still think his judgement is sound. As I said, Irvine has made a good case for why the surge while having some postiive results is not the sole reason for the improved situation for Iraq and thus has argued that one can still maintian one would have still been against the surge even while acknowledging some benefits from it. So now I don't think Obama's opposition to the surge is because of "bad judgement." Supposing all the other factors Irvine mentioned hadnt' been in play as well. Would the surge have been as successful? We can't know the answer to that, but it's perhaps a little simplistic to attribute every good thing to the surge.

At any rate, none of this sounds good on TV and so Obama is left with the difficult options in front of him as to how to explain his views on the campaign trail. If you want to debate his judgement perhaps you might consider whether his decision to stick with his original opinion on the surge is a good political decision or if the "I was wrong" choice would have been better.
 
r413836298.jpg


I have no idea who put up that Obama sticker.
I hope it was done by someone without any association with the Obama team.


It looks really tacky.
 
My first guess: photoshopped

Both signs have the exact same curl in the corner. Same writing above. And the colors on the left banner seemed altered.

And then if you bring this image into an editing software and do a quick contrast, you can see some pixels on the left banner are obviously manipulated.
 
They interviewed a guy on TV who had one of those signs and he seemed to be an Obama supporter (by his accent I'd guess Israeli-born). It didn't sound like anything official.

This is a nice photo:

2696893289_a55d8faff0.jpg
 
Random off-topic question: is anyone else besides me bothered by the fact that it's no longer possible to quote-box text from another website (like an article or blog) within your post without having it automatically italicized? I've always liked having the option to visually distinguish such things by putting them in a quote box, but I find that having everything in italics slows down my reading speed to an annoying degree.

I ask because if others besides me are bothered by this, I can see if anything can be done about it (though that may not be possible), but I don't want to make a big deal out of it if it's just me whining. FYM has far more sourced-from-elsewhere text in it than the other forums, so I figured if it were a problem anywhere, it'd be here.


Yeah it bugs me. I like italics for emphasis occasionally, but find it hard on my eyes (never the best in the first place) to read large amounts of it.
 
Random off-topic question: is anyone else besides me bothered by the fact that it's no longer possible to quote-box text from another website (like an article or blog) within your post without having it automatically italicized? I've always liked having the option to visually distinguish such things by putting them in a quote box, but I find that having everything in italics slows down my reading speed to an annoying degree.

I ask because if others besides me are bothered by this, I can see if anything can be done about it (though that may not be possible), but I don't want to make a big deal out of it if it's just me whining. FYM has far more sourced-from-elsewhere text in it than the other forums, so I figured if it were a problem anywhere, it'd be here.

Reading English I'm sometimes annoyingly slow anyways, but yeah it could well be that everything written in italics slows me down even further. Might be helpful if it was in normal text, so that one could also italicize himself.
 
Random off-topic question: is anyone else besides me bothered by the fact that it's no longer possible to quote-box text from another website (like an article or blog) within your post without having it automatically italicized? I've always liked having the option to visually distinguish such things by putting them in a quote box, but I find that having everything in italics slows down my reading speed to an annoying degree.


:wave:

i'm bothered.
 
^

Olbermann, as far as I understand it, is not actually running a presidential campaign, so really what he says matters about as much as what anybody else on TV says, whatever network they're on.
 
I have to say that it warms my heart to see people abroad waving American flags again. There is an opportunity for a different kind of global politics after the last 8 years and I can only hope that Americans embrace it in November.
 
^

Olbermann, as far as I understand it, is not actually running a presidential campaign, so really what he says matters about as much as what anybody else on TV says, whatever network they're on.


No. Olbermann distorts the truth and is more dishonest than anyone I have ever seen in the news business. It matters when people watch his show to get election information, and it's so blatantly one-sided.
 
I have to say that it warms my heart to see people abroad waving American flags again. There is an opportunity for a different kind of global politics after the last 8 years and I can only hope that Americans embrace it in November.

I was thinking the same thing. The image of Europeans excited about America and waving American flags rather than using them in protest is a stark contrast against what we've been seeing the last 8 years, and it's such a wonderful feeling.
 
I don't watch Keith Olbermann for any information. I think he's just as obnoxious as O'Reilly and when I see him I change the channel :shrug: I don't consider him to be a news person, he's a commentator like O'Reilly is.
 
No. Olbermann distorts the truth and is more dishonest than anyone I have ever seen in the news business. It matters when people watch his show to get election information, and it's so blatantly one-sided.


this from a Rush listener?
 
I was thinking the same thing. The image of Europeans excited about America and waving American flags rather than using them in protest is a stark contrast against what we've been seeing the last 8 years, and it's such a wonderful feeling.




i didn't see the speech, but i did just read it. it made me choke up.

just one example:

That is why I'm here. And you are here because you too know that yearning. This city, of all cities, knows the dream of freedom. And you know that the only reason we stand here tonight is because men and women from both of our nations came together to work, and struggle, and sacrifice for that better life.

Ours is a partnership that truly began sixty years ago this summer, on the day when the first American plane touched down at Templehof.

On that day, much of this continent still lay in ruin. The rubble of this city had yet to be built into a wall. The Soviet shadow had swept across Eastern Europe, while in the West, America, Britain, and France took stock of their losses, and pondered how the world might be remade.

This is where the two sides met. And on the twenty-fourth of June, 1948, the Communists chose to blockade the western part of the city. They cut off food and supplies to more than two million Germans in an effort to extinguish the last flame of freedom in Berlin.

The size of our forces was no match for the much larger Soviet Army. And yet retreat would have allowed Communism to march across Europe. Where the last war had ended, another World War could have easily begun. All that stood in the way was Berlin.

And that's when the airlift began - when the largest and most unlikely rescue in history brought food and hope to the people of this city.

The odds were stacked against success. In the winter, a heavy fog filled the sky above, and many planes were forced to turn back without dropping off the needed supplies. The streets where we stand were filled with hungry families who had no comfort from the cold.

But in the darkest hours, the people of Berlin kept the flame of hope burning. The people of Berlin refused to give up. And on one fall day, hundreds of thousands of Berliners came here, to the Tiergarten, and heard the city's mayor implore the world not to give up on freedom. "There is only one possibility," he said. "For us to stand together united until this battle is won...The people of Berlin have spoken. We have done our duty, and we will keep on doing our duty. People of the world: now do your duty...People of the world, look at Berlin!"

People of the world - look at Berlin!

Look at Berlin, where Germans and Americans learned to work together and trust each other less than three years after facing each other on the field of battle.

Look at Berlin, where the determination of a people met the generosity of the Marshall Plan and created a German miracle; where a victory over tyranny gave rise to NATO, the greatest alliance ever formed to defend our common security.

Look at Berlin, where the bullet holes in the buildings and the somber stones and pillars near the Brandenburg Gate insist that we never forget our common humanity.

People of the world - look at Berlin, where a wall came down, a continent came together, and history proved that there is no challenge too great for a world that stands as one.

Sixty years after the airlift, we are called upon again. History has led us to a new crossroad, with new promise and new peril. When you, the German people, tore down that wall - a wall that divided East and West; freedom and tyranny; fear and hope - walls came tumbling down around the world. From Kiev to Cape Town, prison camps were closed, and the doors of democracy were opened. Markets opened too, and the spread of information and technology reduced barriers to opportunity and prosperity. While the 20th century taught us that we share a common destiny, the 21st has revealed a world more intertwined than at any time in human history.


whole thing is here: Obama Berlin Speech: See Video, Photos, Full Speech Transript
 
this from a Rush listener?

Rush doesn't act like he's unbiased. Olbermann acts like he's just looking out for the folks from both sides, but, surprise surprise, it's only the Republicans who do anything bad and Democrats are perfect. I can't imagine anyone listening to Rush without knowing who he is or where he stands politically. I can't say the same about Olbermann. He is irresponsible.

Rush also doesn't moderate election night coverage.
 
it made me choke up.

I'm sorry, but I had to laugh when I read that. I could only stomach watching some of it, and it was laughable.

I'm tired of Obama and all Democrats talking about how we need to be "citizens of the world," as if there is something wrong with being an American. Obama mentioned how "the world" came together to rebuild Germany. No. The United States rebuilt Germany. "The world," including Germany and all of Europe is doing next to nothing about the problems in Africa. The United States is doing the bulk of that.

Where's the talk of American exceptionalism- from either candidate?
 
In contrast...McCain stopped by a German restaurant in Ohio during Obama's speech...that made my Mom and me laugh so hard we had tears streaming down our faces. There's just no comparison.
 
I'm tired of Obama and all Democrats talking about how we need to be "citizens of the world," as if there is something wrong with being an American. Obama mentioned how "the world" came together to rebuild Germany. No. The United States rebuilt Germany. "The world," including Germany and all of Europe is doing next to nothing about the problems in Africa. The United States is doing the bulk of that.

Where's the talk of American exceptionalism- from either candidate?

Being citizens of the world does not equal anything wrong with being American-it's the exact opposite. People in other countries, and many people here, have had it with the arrogance of the last eight years that has created anti-American feelings (personally I wish some people would stop lumping all Americans in with Bush but that's another story). If you can't see that well no offense but you must be living under a rock or in denial.

The US is nothing without the support and friendship of "the world". We used to have it and we need it back. That's what Senator Obama is talking about.
 
I'm tired of Obama and all Democrats talking about how we need to be "citizens of the world," as if there is something wrong with being an American.

What kind of logic is that?

I was born in Eastern Europe, moved to Western Europe as a child, to Canada as a pre-teen, and am now in NY. I consider myself to be a citizen of the world and I think it is only a good thing that I have lived in so many places, and have acquainted myself with so many cultures, and learned to speak so many languages. I strive to be a citizen of the world, and that does not denigrate my formal citizenships, nor the countries I have lived in nor am living in.

If you don't wish to be part of an increasingly global community, that's your prerogative. But you will be left standing with a small crowd of like-minded people, because time and progress are just going to steamroll right over you.
 
I'm sorry, but I had to laugh when I read that. I could only stomach watching some of it, and it was laughable.

I'm tired of Obama and all Democrats talking about how we need to be "citizens of the world," as if there is something wrong with being an American. Obama mentioned how "the world" came together to rebuild Germany. No. The United States rebuilt Germany. "The world," including Germany and all of Europe is doing next to nothing about the problems in Africa. The United States is doing the bulk of that.

Where's the talk of American exceptionalism- from either candidate?



this is why they hate us. the Europeans. and this is why we're going to be left behind if we continue the narrow-minded, nativist perspectives exemplified here.
 
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