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Old 07-12-2008, 07:09 PM   #561
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Strongbow, could we just wrap this whole thing up by conceding that the 16 month timetable on Obama's website is not going to happen?

Speaking as an Obama supporter from the beginning, I have NEVER believed or accepted the idea of a rapid/immediate withdrawal from Iraq. I've always believed that getting out would be much more difficult than going in. I also never really believed that Obama was going to insist on a 16 month withdrawal. The irony is you are depending on Obama being true to his word to make your case against him, while I am, perhaps, more cynically, expecting him to go back on his promise (which in my opinion was a politically expedient promise in the same league as "read my lips" that Obama really couldn't hope to keep) in making my case FOR him.

You, in your typically masterful and text-heavy way have created a no-win situation for Obama. Either he breaks his 16 month timetable promise and you can paint him in a variety of negative colors ("just another dihonest politician", "a foreign policy neophyte who had no idea what he was promising when he made that commitment" etc). Or he persists in standing by it and you can continue to point out how unreasonable and unworkable it is. Either way. . .you win.

Of course there are things you would have to ignore.

Like:
The timetable was predicated on the idea that an indefinite stay in Iraq would be bad for the U.S. and for Iraq. Most of us don't want to be in Iraq forever, and a timetable--even if it has to be readjusted multiple times--would help keep us moving in the right direction. This is the real difference which you consistently ignore (and I admit the Democrats political pandering assists you in this)--the difference between an approach of an indefinite 100-years stay in Iraq and an aggressive move to wrap things up there as soon as possible.

Also, you have not allowed the possiblity nor recognized the value in Obama being able to change his perspective or admit he was wrong. As Irvine has pointed out, it's exactly this quality that was lacking in the previous administration. If Obama is wrong about the 16 month withdrawal I should hope he should have the good sense to admit it and he shouldn't be excoriated for doing so.

Unless of course you only vote for leaders who are never wrong. . .which would explain your current support for the Bush administrations polices.
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Old 07-12-2008, 07:11 PM   #562
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no need to apologize to me
I was not personally offended

your remarks came off as racist

I would think that most people would be offended by such remarks

No, they didn't come across as racist.

He was obviously being ironic. Most people would be able to recognize that.
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Old 07-12-2008, 07:11 PM   #563
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No, they didn't come across as racist.

He was obviously being ironic. Most people would be able to recognize that.
Then maybe I should be offended?

Was he suggesting,

that was my thinking?
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Old 07-12-2008, 07:17 PM   #564
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"Hypothetically speaking, we should have $100,000. But realistically speaking we live with two hos,” Mac said.


"Bernie you got to clean up your act. This is a family affair. … I'm just messing with you," Obama said.


I thought Obama was working on winning over the Hillary supporters?
Since we're talking about racism.

What white politician would we make responsible for everything any other white supporters say?

Why must Obama be held responsible for whatever his black supporters say?

I think Obama responded appropriately to Mac's remarks. What else was he supposed to do?

This kind of thinking is a classic American racism. I'm not making any personal accusations you understand. . .I'm just saying.
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Old 07-12-2008, 07:19 PM   #565
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Then maybe I should be offended?

Was he suggesting,

that was my thinking?
Actually, I think you're probalby getting warmer. . .
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Old 07-12-2008, 07:26 PM   #566
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Originally Posted by maycocksean View Post
Since we're talking about racism.

What white politician would we make responsible for everything any other white supporters say?

Why must Obama be held responsible for whatever his black supporters say?

I think Obama responded appropriately to Mac's remarks. What else was he supposed to do?

This kind of thinking is a classic American racism. I'm not making any personal accusations you understand. . .I'm just saying.

what are you going on about?



Ok

thinking about it for 5 seconds, (you were too quick to respond)

I agree with you, this is a non-story,

that may get some play because of Drudge and other blogosphere related bullshit.

But, why did you bring up race?

This could have been an inappropriate remark at a Hillary, McCain or Romney fund raiser. Is the candidate responsible? For the talents remarks? Fair question?
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Old 07-12-2008, 07:29 PM   #567
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Actually, I think you're probalby getting warmer. . .

And the evidence for that is?


Anyone that is not for Obama is racist?

One of the very first post I ever made in here was that I think Obama is an outstanding person, and that I would expect to enthusiastically support him in the future when he has more of a track record.
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Old 07-12-2008, 07:33 PM   #568
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what are you going on about?



Ok

thinking about it for 5 seconds, (you were too quick to respond)

I agree with you, this is a non-story,

that may get some play because of Drudge and other blogosphere related bullshit.

But, why did you bring up race?

This could have been an inappropriate remark at a Hillary, McCain or Romney fund raiser. Is the candidate responsible? For the talents remarks? Fair question?
That explains it. . .I thought I was losing it for a minute. After I posted, I was like. . .wait a second, where did his post go? I coulda sworn. . .

The reason I brought up race is because the idea that the bad behavior of one black person reflects on all black people has long been frustrating to African Americans in this country. You are right that in our current political culture the white politicians might have been "held responsible" as well, but I still believe that when it happens to Obama, as a black candidate it has a lot more traction.
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Old 07-12-2008, 07:39 PM   #569
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And the evidence for that is?

I'll let Irvine get into that, if he chooses to. My point was simply that I think he was aiming at you not Obama in that post.
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Old 07-12-2008, 07:51 PM   #570
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Originally Posted by maycocksean View Post
That explains it. . .I thought I was losing it for a minute. After I posted, I was like. . .wait a second, where did his post go? I coulda sworn. . .

The reason I brought up race is because the idea that the bad behavior of one black person reflects on all black people has long been frustrating to African Americans in this country. You are right that in our current political culture the white politicians might have been "held responsible" as well, but I still believe that when it happens to Obama, as a black candidate it has a lot more traction.
It was gone before you replied, because I did think about it.


and I have read many of the things you have posted about your life experience

I have always said racism is at the top of the list of problems that still exist today.

I still support affirmative action and believe there is a real need for it today.

I bet many of Obama's young supporters do not.

I can appreciate from your vantage point, especially with overtly racist statements towards Obama, that every statement can be viewed through that lens.




Believe me, if a first term (elected in 2004) white Senator were the nominee and McCain was the GOP candidate, my vote would be floating back and forth, the same as it is now.

I will say that with Obama's pragmatic repositioning lately,
he is giving more confidence that he may be a decent president.
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Old 07-12-2008, 07:53 PM   #571
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Quote:
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I'll let Irvine get into that, if he chooses to. My point was simply that I think he was aiming at you not Obama in that post.
I don't disagree, I don't believed it is justified.
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Old 07-12-2008, 07:56 PM   #572
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Quote:
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It was gone before you replied, because I did think about it.


and I have read many of the things you have posted about your life experience

I have always said racism is at the top of the list of problems that still exist today.

I still support affirmative action and believe there is a real need for it today.

I bet many of Obama's young supporters do not.

I can appreciate from your vantage point, and even with overtly racist statements towards Obama, that every statement can be viewed from that lens.




Believe me, if a first term (elected in 2004) white Senator were the nominee and McCain was the GOP candidate, my vote would be floating back and forth, the same as it is now.

I will say that with Obama's pragmatic repositioning lately,
he is giving more confidence that he may be a decent president.
For the record, I've never ever believed that what might be termed your opposition to Obama has anything to do with race.
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Old 07-12-2008, 08:22 PM   #573
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For the record, I've never ever believed that what might be termed your opposition to Obama has anything to do with race.
Thanks,

I do believe others have implied race was a consideration in my concerns with Obama.

We have interacted, you have read my posts
and I have read yours.

I feel we have a bit of a connection and understanding, and mutual respect.

Believe me, if Obama were elected in 2000 and got the nomination in 2004

I would have been writing checks and doing what I could to get him elected over Bush. His lack of experience would not matter against a GOP controlled Congress and the worst President I can remember.

I find the choice in 2008,
between McCain "the best the GOP has" with a heavily Democratic controlled congress
vs a decent new Senator with not much history to be more difficult.

I believe if McCain does win, he will flip- again to what has been his much longer. He has a record of being moderate, and with this heavily Democratic controlled congress that will be his only option.

I still expect Obama to win the election. The Obama I have seen the last couple of weeks is showing a little more nuance and thought than the candidate that was campaigning against Hillary.
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Old 07-12-2008, 08:31 PM   #574
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A little more nuisance, eh?

ETA: corrected, nevermind
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Old 07-12-2008, 08:34 PM   #575
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While I am broadly supportive of Obama's campaign, I think it is quite cheap and unbecoming to accuse another poster of racism if they do not support Obama.
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Old 07-12-2008, 08:54 PM   #576
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Strongbow, could we just wrap this whole thing up by conceding that the 16 month timetable on Obama's website is not going to happen?
Well, provided John McCain is elected president in November, it will never happen. If Obama wins, I hope he abandons his timetable and many other thoughts and idea's on Iraq, and move to the policies of the Bush administration that have worked in Iraq. But Obama has yet to really "refine" his policy on withdrawal so it remains to be seen what will happen if he is elected President. The hope is that the Military and State Department will be able to convince him to follow a withdrawal plan that has as its prerequisite, a sustainable security environment on the ground. If Obama is elected, hopefully there will be a desire to not be known as the President who lost Iraq or messed up success there.

Quote:
I also never really believed that Obama was going to insist on a 16 month withdrawal.
But he has up to this point.


Quote:
The irony is you are depending on Obama being true to his word to make your case against him, while I am, perhaps, more cynically, expecting him to go back on his promise (which in my opinion was a politically expedient promise in the same league as "read my lips" that Obama really couldn't hope to keep) in making my case FOR him.

You, in your typically masterful and text-heavy way have created a no-win situation for Obama. Either he breaks his 16 month timetable promise and you can paint him in a variety of negative colors ("just another dihonest politician", "a foreign policy neophyte who had no idea what he was promising when he made that commitment" etc). Or he persists in standing by it and you can continue to point out how unreasonable and unworkable it is. Either way. . .you win.
Well, it would be a good thing if Obama abandoned many of his positions on Iraq and moved to something more in line with the Bush administrations position on Iraq. From the election standpoint, at this point, there would still be plenty of things McCain could take advantage of if Obama moves towards McCain on the issue. Obama is on the record as saying the Surge would not reduce violence that it would make it worse. He has supported starting an immediate withdrawal, without conditions on the ground being a prerequesite, for some time. While moving towards the Bush/McCain position on Iraq might get some voters to vote for him who are on the fence because of this issue, some liberals might become upset and independents might see it as showing that Obama is too inexperienced to be Commander And Chief.

Quote:
The timetable was predicated on the idea that an indefinite stay in Iraq would be bad for the U.S. and for Iraq. Most of us don't want to be in Iraq forever, and a timetable--even if it has to be readjusted multiple times--would help keep us moving in the right direction. This is the real difference which you consistently ignore (and I admit the Democrats political pandering assists you in this)--the difference between an approach of an indefinite 100-years stay in Iraq and an aggressive move to wrap things up there as soon as possible.
So what is Obama's timetable for Afghanistan? If having a timetable is so important to moving in the right direction, why doesn't Obama have a timetable for Afghanistan?

McCain's position is not to stay in Iraq indefinitely or for 100 years. His position like the Bush administration and the military is to withdraw from Iraq only when conditions on the ground warrent such a withdrawal. Thats his position on Afghanistan as well. Both countries must be rebuilt and developed to a degree that they can sustain such development on their own without the presence of US ground forces. It would not make sense for the United States to suddenly withdraw military forces from an area that is important to its security just because its that time of the month on the withdrawal timetable. You have to make sure that the area is first secure enough and can handle the withdrawal of such forces without it negatively impacting security and development.

Quote:
Also, you have not allowed the possiblity nor recognized the value in Obama being able to change his perspective or admit he was wrong. As Irvine has pointed out, it's exactly this quality that was lacking in the previous administration. If Obama is wrong about the 16 month withdrawal I should hope he should have the good sense to admit it and he shouldn't be excoriated for doing so.
If Obama wants to point out that he was wrong on this issue, that would be great. But voters need to clearly understand that McCain has been right on this vital national security issue, while Obama was wrong when deciding who to vote for in November.
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Old 07-12-2008, 08:58 PM   #577
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While I am broadly supportive of Obama's campaign, I think it is quite cheap and unbecoming to accuse another poster of racism if they do not support Obama.
sometimes it is an easy call

sometimes it is not

When someone says "I won't vote for a black person"

some in here have even posted that members of their own family have said that

Some make broad accusations that if Obama does not win it is because of 'racism'.

Well, I think one has to take into account that even by Democrat standards, McCain is a fairly decent and attractive candidate.

We can not escape race, we all have bias, the best we can do is try and identify it, and challenge it.


I believe there are many people that will not vote for Obama that would have voted for Colin Powell if given the chance.

The sad thing is that if Obama does not win, I can not think of a viable non-European candidate for the future. Presidential candidates are typically Governors or Senators.

Doug Wilder, Vir, Gov ran briefly in 1992, I believe.

Do we have any other people of color as Governors or Senators?

David Paterson? NY

Bobby Jindal? LA
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Old 07-12-2008, 09:26 PM   #578
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Well, Bill Richardson, then there's Deval Patrick in MA. And Sen. Inouye, though he's far too old to run for President. (ETA: whoops, forgot Sen. Akaka, also from HI, and also pretty old.)
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Old 07-12-2008, 10:22 PM   #579
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On the Iraq issue. Given the 4000+ U.S. servicepeople and countless Iraqis who have lost their lives, the lack of WMD, is it too hard to admit Illinois state senator Obama was completely right on his position not to invade Iraq?

And since the U.S. committed to war, too hard to admit Senator McCain has been (mostly) right on the conduct of it, and that he's being proved right on the surge?


Nuance shumance!!! We all know objectively what their rhetoric has been for years, and our own rhetoric in this forum. It hasn't been all that nuanced. But I really hope the end strategy is something in between the perceived indefinite occupation versus the perceived quick withdrawal. The last week or two have encouraged me this will be the case with either candidate.
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Old 07-13-2008, 12:29 AM   #580
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Oh. . .Strongbow. . .you're. . .you're a tricky one.

Careful about putting words in my mouth.

Quote:
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Well, provided John McCain is elected president in November, it will never happen. If Obama wins, I hope he abandons his timetable and many other thoughts and idea's on Iraq, and move to the policies of the Bush administration that have worked in Iraq.
NOT what I was saying. I do believe there are other points of view beyond immediate withdrawal or moving to the policies of the Bush adminstration. Nice try though.

Quote:
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But he has up to this point.
And now he's "refining." Surprise, surprise.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Strongbow View Post
While moving towards the Bush/McCain position
Careful now. . .you might be playing into the hands of the Dems with this characterization of McCain's position on the war. My understanding is that McCain has gone to great lengths to distance himself from Bush's prosecution of/position on the war. But I'm sure you'll be able to tell me how that it is actually untrue and in fact Bush and McCain have been marching in lockstep towards victory ever since the war began.


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So what is Obama's timetable for Afghanistan? If having a timetable is so important to moving in the right direction, why doesn't Obama have a timetable for Afghanistan?
That's actually a reasonable question. At one point do the reasons we got in become irrelevant and the reasons to stay become paramount? Because, as we all know, this is why there has been less criticism of the war in Aghanistan. The reasons for going in were viewed as legit from the beginning. Such was NOT the case with Iraq. If it turned out that the 9/11 terrorists and Osama Bin Laden had actually been working out of say, Indonesia, and NOT Afghanistan you might here more noise about getting out of there.
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