US 2008 Presidential Campaign/Debate Discussion Thread #6

The friendliest place on the web for anyone that follows U2.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
Status
Not open for further replies.
No. What I got from what Obama said is that we need to learn Spanish to accomodate the people here who will never learn English. :

How do you get that from, "I agree immigrants should learn English." Your Rush fandom is seriously getting to you. How anyone can get that from that soundbyte is beyond me.


He said "Don't worry about the immigrants, they'll learn English" and I just don't see where he gets that optimism from. I've had to interact many times with hispanics who, I come to find out, can't put two English sentences together, and it makes me angry. And I'm sure millions of others across the country have encountered the same, as have many of you here I would assume.

Why are you so angry? They're the ones holding themselves back if they don't learn. Is it somehow holding you back?

If I remember right you're from the Chicago area? The majority of non-English speaking people are not Spanish speaking, why are you focusing on Hispanics?
 
Learn English before you come here.

You've got to be kidding? Apparently you've never traveled abroad.

So you want a requirement that you have to learn English before you enter our borders? Wow. Screw all those people who don't have access to that kind of education, our borders aren't open to you...

Where is it written that English is THE language of the U.S.?
 
It's not. It's just that some people don't want to be inconvenienced by having to actually interact with people who don't speak their language fluently or at all.
 
I don't care where you're from. Learn English before you come here.

If you went to live in a foreign country for work, or whatever, would you learn their language before you did? Or would you just expect them to speak English with you?

thehill.com

July 10, 2008
Giuliani: Obama Capturing 'an Anti-American Feeling'
@ 12:32 pm by Andy Barr

Former Mayor Rudy Giuliani (R-N.Y.) said Thursday that Barack Obama is capturing 'an anti-American feeling' responding to Obama telling a town hall audience in Georgia that their children should learn to speak Spanish.

"Well this is why he is a popular candidate in Europe, because there is such an anti-American feeling and he is sort of capturing that," Giuliani said on MSNBC.


Giuliani said he was not as troubled by Obama's suggestion that children learn Spanish as the assumption that immigrant families are learning English.

"It makes sense to teach your children another language," Giuliani said. But, Giuliani added, "the reality is that this is a country that should speak English…and if we can learn an extra language or two that would be terrific."

The former New York City Mayor said Obama is "sliding over" the need for immigrant families to learn English by "making an assumption that isn't true, that all immigrants are learning English. They're not."
 
How long until Obama says "That's not the Reverend Jackson I knew"?

Actually this is how his campaign responded

The Obama campaign took a measured response to the incident, contending in a statement that Obama has spoken for many years about parental responsibility as well as "jobs, justice and opportunity for all."

"He will continue to speak out about our responsibilities to ourselves and each other, and he of course accepts Rev. Jackson's apology," Obama campaign spokesman Bill Burton said.


They don't even have a relationship, as far as I know-and he's not his spiritual advisor in any way either. So it's not a Rev Wright situation. Rev Jackson also has said that Sen Obama was "acting white" in the past-so I don't think there's much love lost there.

I find it to be so telling that he said he wanted to "cut his nuts" off. I think he feels threatened by Sen Obama, and when some men feel threatened it always comes down to the nuts somehow...
 
July 10, 2008
Giuliani: Obama Capturing 'an Anti-American Feeling'
@ 12:32 pm by Andy Barr

Former Mayor Rudy Giuliani (R-N.Y.) said Thursday that Barack Obama is capturing 'an anti-American feeling' responding to Obama telling a town hall audience in Georgia that their children should learn to speak Spanish.

"Well this is why he is a popular candidate in Europe, because there is such an anti-American feeling and he is sort of capturing that," Giuliani said on MSNBC.


Giuliani said he was not as troubled by Obama's suggestion that children learn Spanish as the assumption that immigrant families are learning English.

"It makes sense to teach your children another language," Giuliani said. But, Giuliani added, "the reality is that this is a country that should speak English…and if we can learn an extra language or two that would be terrific."

The former New York City Mayor said Obama is "sliding over" the need for immigrant families to learn English by "making an assumption that isn't true, that all immigrants are learning English. They're not."

Sounds like Rudy is jealous because he hasn't been popular since 9/11:|
 
NY Post

The Rev. Al Sharpton admonished Rev Jackson and cautioned against dividing black voters.

Obama "is running for president of all Americans, not just African-Americans," he said. We "must be careful not to segregate Senator Obama and impose some litmus test that is unfair and unproductive."


Hopefully Rev Sharpton will abide by that philosophy
 
It's strange when Jesse Jackson makes Al Sharpton look like the sane one.

It is. That would be like when diamond is allowed back here and starts making.. look like the sane one. Wait a minute..:doh: nevermind. :wink:

Embarrassing to be called out by your son like that. Bravo to his son though, he's right to do that. I don't care what he says, I think it's about envy. Why does Sen Obama have to do things the way Jesse Jackson wants him to? He must just want to scream sometimes, I don't know how he stands it.

If he's "part of that race" then he should stop acting like such a petty ass.



(CNN) -- The Rev. Jesse Jackson on Thursday denied allegations that his disparaging remarks about Sen. Barack Obama stemmed from envy.

"That's kind of ridiculous. He's running the last lap of a 54-year marathon. He is running that race. I am a part of that race," Jackson said on CNN's "American Morning," referring to the modern civil rights struggle. Jackson ran for the Democratic nomination in 1984 and 1988.

On Wednesday, he apologized for the "crude and hurtful remarks" he made about Obama following an interview Sunday with a Fox News correspondent.

While talking to a fellow interviewee, an open microphone picked up Jackson whispering, "See, Barack's been talking down to black people. ... I want to cut his nuts off."

Jackson replied, "No," when asked Thursday if he thought the presumptive Democratic nominee talks down to African-Americans.

The civil rights leader told CNN's "Situation Room" on Wednesday that he didn't realize the microphone was on at the time. He said he was having a private conversation, and it did not occur to him that it would be picked up.
"It was very private," Jackson said, adding that if "any hurt or harm has been caused to his campaign, I apologize."

An Obama campaign spokesman, Bill Burton, said that the senator from Illinois "of course accepts Rev. Jackson's apology."

Jackson's son, Rep. Jesse Jackson Jr. of Illinois -- co-chair of Obama's presidential campaign -- publicly blasted his father's comments Wednesday.

"I'm deeply outraged and disappointed in Rev. Jackson's reckless statements about Sen. Barack Obama," the younger Jackson said. "His divisive and demeaning comments about the presumptive Democratic nominee -- and I believe the next president of the United States -- contradict his inspiring and courageous career."

The lawmaker added that he'll "always love" his father but said, "I thoroughly reject and repudiate his ugly rhetoric."

The elder Jackson repeated his apology in a news conference in Chicago, Illinois, a couple of hours before Fox News aired Sunday's remarks. He said he wanted to address the issue publicly before the cable network aired the comments because "I know that they will further violate the context of it."

Asked Thursday if he was in trouble with his family, Jackson said, "It's always a challenge, but he is my congressman and I am his father. Ultimately, we get along."

Jackson reiterated his support for Obama, saying, "His campaign represents the redemption of our country."

In a recent Father's Day speech at a black church, Obama took absent black fathers to task, saying, "We need them to realize that what makes you a man is not the ability to have a child -- it's the courage to raise one."

While not citing any particular comment, Jackson said Obama's message to black voters must be broader and serve as more than a "moral challenge."

The black community is faced with high levels of unemployment, home foreclosures and violence, "so we have some real serious issues -- not just moral issues," he said.

Jackson on Thursday said part of his "anguish" was a result of the limitations of faith-based programs.

"We also need government-based [initiatives]. When bridges are collapsing, rivers are being overrun, it requires beyond faith the substance of real investment," he said.

Burton, Obama's spokesman, said the senator is quite familiar with the issues facing African-Americans and that "he will continue to speak out about our responsibilities to ourselves."

Jackson, whose Rainbow/PUSH Coalition is based in Chicago, has publicly endorsed Obama, most recently in a piece published Tuesday in the Chicago Sun-Times, and he said he enjoys a close relationship with the Obama family.

The incident is the latest of several in which the issue of Obama's relationship with the African-American community has become a part of the campaign, raised either by opponents or by Obama's allies.

Nearly two weeks ago, Ralph Nader -- who is running for president as an independent -- accused Obama of attempting to "talk white" and appealing to "white guilt" in his quest for the White House.

Obama also has had to deal with the controversy over his former minister, the Rev. Jeremiah Wright, whose fiery sermons at Chicago's Trinity United Church of Christ drew unwanted attention for the campaign. In the sermons, Wright suggested the U.S. government may be responsible for the spread of AIDS in the black community and equated some American wartime activities to terrorism.

The recent remarks were not the first time Jackson has criticized Obama. Last fall, he was critical of Obama's reaction to charges filed against six black students in the beating of a white student in Jena, Louisiana, a racially charged case that sparked a national outcry.

Jackson accused Obama of "acting like he's white," a South Carolina newspaper reported. "If I were a candidate, I'd be all over Jena," Jackson said in a speech at Benedict College in Columbia, according to The State newspaper. "Jena is a defining moment, just like Selma [Alabama] was a defining moment." The paper reported Jackson later said he did not recall saying Obama is "acting like he's white."

During the Democratic primary race, Jackson also said Sen. John Edwards was the only candidate speaking to the issues of the black community. He later apologized.
 
John McCain-making sure America stays America :applaud:

tpmelectioncentral.com

Top McCain Surrogates Questioning Obama's American-Ness
By Greg Sargent - July 10, 2008, 11:24AM

John McCain's campaign has explicitly said that questions about Obama's patriotism are off limits, but McCain's highest-profile surrogates have embarked on a new round of efforts to raise questions about Obama's American-ness, for lack of a better word -- with no objection yet from the McCain camp.

The occasion for the latest insinuations about Obama's American-ness is the Illinois Senator's recent claim that Americans should learn a second language. "You should be thinking about how can your child become bilingual," Obama told a crowd the other day, adding that it was "embarrassing" that Europeans can speak English while Americans can't communicate in other languages abroad.

Now McCain's surrogates are taking this perfectly innocuous observation and using it to sow doubts about Obama.

"I do think that, frankly, Barack Obama looks toward Europe for a lot of his inspiration," top McCain supporter Mitt Romney told Fox News on Tuesday. "I think John McCain is going to make sure that America stays America."

Does that mean Obama won't make sure America stays America?

And here's Rudy Giuliani today on Morning Joe, saying that Obama is "capturing" an "anti-American feeling" that exists in Europe, where Obama is "popular"...

But a few days ago, top McCain adviser Charlie Black said of Obama: "We concede that he's a patriot."

So the question for the McCain camp now is, Does McCain agree with what his surrogates are saying about Obama?
 
Might some of the change be attributable to this "Sergeant" Schmidt guy who has taken charge of the campaign team?
 
“You’ve heard of mental depression,” he said, “this is a mental recession.” He went on to say that the United States had become “a nation of whiners” egged on by the news media who feed them a steady diet of bad economic news.

“Thank God the economy is not as bad as you read in the newspaper every day,” he concluded.


A nation of whiners ?

Who would set that example?

Michele Obama begins with a broad assessment of life in America in 2008, and life is not good: we’re a divided country, we’re a country that is “just downright mean,” we are “guided by fear,” we’re a nation of cynics, sloths, and complacents. “We have become a nation of struggling folks who are barely making it every day,” she said, as heads bobbed in the pews. “Folks are just jammed up, and it’s gotten worse over my lifetime. And, doggone it, I’m young. Forty-four!”

From these bleak generalities, Obama moves into specific complaints. Used to be, she will say, that you could count on a decent education in the neighborhood. But now there are all these charter schools and magnet schools that you have to “finagle” to get into. (Obama herself attended a magnet school, but never mind.) Health care is out of reach (“Let me tell you, don’t get sick in America”), pensions are disappearing, college is too expensive, and even if you can figure out a way to go to college you won’t be able to recoup the cost of the degree in many of the professions for which you needed it in the first place. “You’re looking at a young couple that’s just a few years out of debt,” Obama said. “See, because, we went to those good schools, and we didn’t have trust funds. I’m still waiting for Barack’s trust fund. Especially after I heard that Dick Cheney was s’posed to be a relative or something. Give us something here!”
 
I don't care where you're from. Learn English before you come here.

How many of the Irish, German, Scandanavian, Italian etc immigrants who came here in the 19th an early 20th century learned English back in their countries before coming here? Were there big English language classes back in Europe for them all to take and become fluent before shipping over here? Why on EARTH would it be any different for people coming from Latin American countries?

And why wouldn't you be "optimistic" about immigrants eventually learning English? How would your brief interactiions with "hispanics" who you "come to find out" provide you with enough evidence to conclude that they'll "never" learn English? I deal with ESL students and their families all the time (granted they are not Latino, so maybe that makes the difference, huh?) and I'll tell you that they all want to learn English. I'll also tell you that learning English is extraordinarily difficult and the older you are the harder it is to learn (I've heard that English is the second-hardest language in the world to learn--Chinese is the hardest). Often times truly fluent English really doesn't occur until the second generation--the kids born in the United States. So your newly immigrated adult may never learn to speak English well, but their kids will.
 
(I've heard that English is the second-hardest language in the world to learn--Chinese is the hardest).


Wow, never heard that. But may be. There is a lot of time forms in English I'e yet to learn. I just write and speak by intuition.

I think one difficulty with English is that the vocals aren't pronounced the same way in different words. Every letter can be pronounced in dozen different ways you first have to learn. A common joke here is about German tourists that have to learn not to ask for "Where is zeh bitch" when they are asking directions for the beach. ;)
 
“You’re looking at a young couple that’s just a few years out of debt,” Obama said. “See, because, we went to those good schools, and we didn’t have trust funds. I’m still waiting for Barack’s trust fund. Especially after I heard that Dick Cheney was s’posed to be a relative or something. Give us something here!”

I have no trust fund.
I have been working since I was 15.
I now have a decent size estate.


I am the President of a non-Partisan citywide residents group organized to promote the common good and general welfare of the community. This is accomplished through:

Recognizing the people who have a positive impact on the community
• Taking positive action to inform residents of the issues impacting the community.
• Celebrating the good things that happen in the community.


Last night at one of our monthly meetings we presented a college scholarship to a deserving high school senior.

2656179971_3604d95047.jpg


That is Jo (our Scholarship Chair) and the recipient.

R. Sanchez maintained an 4.0 + gpa with advanced placement courses, volunteered hundreds of hours, worked two jobs, and is the first person to graduate high school (ever) in his family. He will be majoring in Mechanical Engineering at one of our CA State Universities. He is bi-lingual, he was born in this country, his parents were not.


He does not think it is a "mean" country.
He is not asking to put his hands in Dick Cheney's pockets, or anyone else's.
He is only wanting a chance to work hard and earn a better life for himself and others.
 
I think Sen Obama was just trying to be funny, and they both worked hard to get through college. They only wanted that chance too. I hardly think they believe it's a "mean" country, they are both always saying that their lives would only be possible in this country.
 
R. Sanchez maintained an 4.0 + gpa with advanced placement courses, volunteered hundreds of hours, worked two jobs, and is the first person to graduate high school (ever) in his family. He will be majoring in Mechanical Engineering at one of our CA State Universities. He is bi-lingual, he was born in this country, his parents were not.

He does not think it is a "mean" country.
He is not asking to put his hands in Dick Cheney's pockets, or anyone else's.
He is only wanting a chance to work hard and earn a better life for himself and others.
Sounds like he shares some of the same values as the Presidential candidate who said last month...
You know, sometimes I'll go to an eighth-grade graduation and there's all that pomp and circumstance and gowns and flowers. And I think to myself, it's just eighth grade. To really compete, they need to graduate high school, and then they need to graduate college, and they probably need a graduate degree too. An eighth-grade education doesn't cut it today. Let's give them a handshake and tell them to get their butts back in the library! ...All B’s? Is that the highest grade? It’s great that you can get a B, but you can get a better grade. It’s great that you’ve got a job, but you can get a better job...

We should take all of these steps to build a strong foundation for our children. But we should also know that even if we do; even if we meet our obligations as fathers and parents; even if Washington does its part too, we will still face difficult challenges in our lives. There will still be days of struggle and heartache. The rains will still come and the winds will still blow. And that is why the final lesson we must learn as fathers is also the greatest gift we can pass on to our children--and that is the gift of hope. I'm not talking about an idle hope that's little more than blind optimism or willful ignorance of the problems we face. I'm talking about hope as that spirit inside us that insists, despite all evidence to the contrary, that something better is waiting for us if we're willing to work for it and fight for it. If we are willing to believe.
I wonder how Michelle Obama made it from from the South Side of Chicago to Princeton and Harvard? Bet she whined and begged for handouts from mush-hearted deserving rich folks all the way, rather than working hard to earn a better life for herself and others. Typical.
Last night at one of our monthly meetings we presented a college scholarship to a deserving high school senior.
And why does he get a charity handout? Why can't he scrimp and save and work his way to success himself--like you did? That's the American way! Tuition, schmuition...cry me a river. A little delayed gratification never hurt anybody. What a nation of whiners we've become.



Oh, and...
McCain's campaign disavowed Gramm's remarks, saying in a statement: "John McCain travels the country every day talking to Americans who are hurting, feeling pain at the pump and worrying about how they'll pay their mortgage. That's why he has a realistic plan to deliver immediate relief at the gas pump, grow our economy, and put Americans back to work."
Commie.
 
Last edited:
Is McCain really this clueless? | Philly | 07/10/2008

Is McCain really this clueless?

It's always worth taking a break from vacation to behold the spectacle of a politician blowing off his own foot.

John McCain this week has uttered a couple whoppers that are so egregious, it prompts one to wonder whether he is subconsciously trying to sabotage his own campaign, or whether he is as verbally inept as the president he seeks to replace, or whether he simply lacks the most fundamental knowledge that is required of any Oval Office denizen.

The topic was Social Security. During a Monday town hall event (and bear in mind that he thinks he excels best in town hall events), the presumptive Republican nominee stated: "Americans have got to understand that we are paying present-day retirees with the taxes paid by young workers in America today. And that's a disgrace. It's an absolute disgrace..."

One day later, on CNN, McCain said virtually the thing while railing against the Social Security program: "Let's describe it for what it is. (Today's workers) pay their taxes, and right now their taxes are going to pay the retirement of present-day retirees. That's why it's broken..."

We all know that McCain would prefer to spend his time talking about national security and about how Iraq is the central front in the war on terror. We're all aware by now of his public admission that he is a tad knowledge-challenged about the biggest domestic issue of all, the economy. But we might arguably expect that the presidential nominee of a major party would at least have a working knowledge of the most popular domestic program since the New Deal.

Because here's the thing: What McCain describes as "an absolute disgrace" and "broken" are the rules that have governed the Social Security program since its inception 73 years ago. Current workers are always taxed, via the payroll levy, to support the retirement security of current seniors. That's how the pay-as-you-go policy has always worked. That's not a "disgrace," that's the law.

There are several possible ways to interpret McCain's remarks, none of them very flattering:

1. He's truly ignorant of how Social Security works, which, among other things, is not the best way to attract senior voters, or any voters who'd like to believe that a guy auditioning to run the country is at least minimally in touch with reality.

2. He does know how Social Security works (it's hard to imagine he doesn't, not after two decades in Washington), but somehow failed to articulate whatever he really intended to say - just as he has done on other recent occasions, such as when he twice confused the Sunnis and the Shiites (which Brit Hume of Fox News defended as a possible "senior moment").

3. He actually does believe that the fundamental precepts of Social Security are an "absolute disgrace," and wants to overhaul them.

It has long been an axiom that any Republican seeking to overhaul Social Security is doomed to suffer political damage; witness President Bush, who drained his '05 capital while stumping in vain for partial privatization. And it has long been an axiom that any Republican who verbally disses the program (inadvertently or intentionally) is doomed to suffer political damage; witness Barry Goldwater, the 1964 presidential nominee who was slaughtered on election day in part because he was on record as having stated, "I think Social Security ought to be voluntary. This is the only definite position I have on it."

Yesterday, a McCain spokesman tried to cover the candidate's tracks (they've been mopping up a lot lately) by stating after the fact what McCain might have been intending to convey: "The disgrace is our failure to fix the long-run imbalance in Social Security - a failure of leadership evidenced by our willingness to kick the problem to the next generation of leaders. He's also describing the looming and increasing demographic pressures confronting the Social Security system and Washington's utter failure to address it."

But that's not what McCain described as a "disgrace." Instead, he targeted the underlying premise of the program itself. Either he did this because he is inarticulate; or because he really doesn't know how it works; or because he's an idealogue who wants to undo the best of the New Deal. Whatever the reason, the Demcrats and the senior groups now have him on video. As Barry Goldwater discovered, while trying unsuccessfully to distance himself from his own words, that kind of talk can kill a presidential candidacy.
 
deep, kudos to you for being pro-active in your community. As you know, I'm sure, it does make a difference.
 
Fair enough; I doubt anyone in here considers community involvement anything but worthwhile and important, especially since many of us are involved with multiple such groups and activities on a regular basis. That doesn't make it any less of a disingenuous cheap shot to blithely dismiss Michelle Obama's standard campaign trail populism as the example par excellence of Phil Gramm's alleged American penchant for "whining." The notion that she seriously expects (or feels she needs) any leg-up from "Dick Cheney's pockets" is silly, and so is the idea that, unlike 'Me', she knows nothing about hard work, saving up, taking responsibility for others, or for that matter, engaging in community service on behalf of those for whom the college scholarship never came through, the secure retirement after decades of continuous hard work didn't pan out, the minimal health insurance they were able to afford didn't cover the midlife health crisis that no-one ever plans on, etc. etc. Why would any of us be involved in community service to begin with if we didn't recognize that all these obstacles really do exist, that the most "deserving" people sometimes fail to surmount them, that there's a moral obligation to be aware of your good fortunes as well as your just rewards, and therefore to do what you can to pay it forward here and there?
 
Last edited:
i had hoped that we were going to get a strikingly mature presidential race with Obama, someone who proved himself not only above but able to beat Clintonian politics, and with McCain, clearly the only adult amongst the GOP candidates.

it seems i was foolish. i see the McCain campaign moving into desperation mode, trying as hard as they can to paint Obama as "foreign" or "not-American" in the way that the Bushies tried successfully (and not without some unforced errors involving windsurfing) to make John Kerry appear "French." and in this context, it's fairly explicitly racist.

we'll see if the Obamacons strike back. and if they do, be prepared for surrogates to question McCain's sanity.

worked for Bush in 2000.
 
I have no trust fund.
I have been working since I was 15.
I now have a decent size estate.



the first two characteristics are shared by most of us (i started lifeguarding when i was 15).

what's made you successful, and not others?
 
the first two characteristics are shared by most of us (i started lifeguarding when i was 15).

what's made you successful, and not others?

Ditto on the first two (I started cleaning an Olympic size pool at the age of 15).

What made him succesful and not others? I'll let deep speak for himself, but I can say that my choice to become a missionary teacher on a tiny island in the Pacific probably didn't do much for my net worth.

I currently have an estate of exactly no size at all. (I think my most expensive asset at this point in time is either my couch or my ipod!).

But the funny thing is I don't feel unsuccesful at all!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom