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Old 09-16-2008, 05:09 PM   #861
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Originally Posted by anitram View Post


Heckuva job, Republicans.
Well, if you wanna be a little more precise about economic performance, you'll take into account all the years someone was in office, not just the month they started and one of the last months they were in office. Thats just not very representitive of 8 years. Unemployment initially went up during the Bush administration to 6.3% in 2003, but was brought back down to 4.4 by 2007.

A more accurate way of looking at these figures is to take a look at the average over the time the President was in office. Here is a comparison of Clinton and W administrations on a number of economic indicators and statistics looking at the average performance of each through out their time in office.

The Average National Federal Debt as a percentage of GDP:

Clinton Years 64.5%

Bush Years 61.9%




Average GDP growth rate:

Clinton Years 5.4%

Bush Years 4.8%




Average Annual Poverty Rate:

Clinton Years 13.3%

Bush Years 12.3%



Average Annual Inflation Rate:

Clinton Years 2.60%

Bush Years 2.69%




Average Annual Unemployment Rate:

Clinton Years 5.21%

Bush Years 5.20%




Notice that the average annual poverty rate under W is the 3rd lowest of any administration in the history of the United States. Only Nixon and Carter have had an average annual poverty rate lower than W.



Also, lets not forget that Clinton started with a national debt of $4,064,620,655,521.66 and left us with a national debt of $5,674,178,209,886.86, a 42% increase despite the fact the country was at peace and with the world enjoying the lowest gas prices in history. Bush has had to deal with much higher gas prices and fight two extended wars.
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Old 09-16-2008, 05:34 PM   #862
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Actually, Bush did not "have" to deal with all of that. He fought two wars and had high gas prices when only one was necessary (the less expensive one) and did nothing to combat the gas prices.
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Old 09-16-2008, 05:47 PM   #863
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Actually, Bush did not "have" to deal with all of that. He fought two wars and had high gas prices when only one was necessary (the less expensive one) and did nothing to combat the gas prices.

The number of people who think the world would be safer today and the energy market in better condition with Saddam in power in Iraq gets smaller and smaller.
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Old 09-16-2008, 05:57 PM   #864
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Oh yeah, I'm doing much better now than 8 years ago.

NOT
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Old 09-16-2008, 06:14 PM   #865
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Raising taxes on small business owners and big business will not grow jobs.
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Old 09-16-2008, 06:34 PM   #866
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Raising taxes on small business owners and big business will not grow jobs.
Cutting taxes on big business didn't "grow" jobs, either.


Let's not forget that.
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Old 09-16-2008, 06:42 PM   #867
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Originally Posted by Strongbow View Post
The number of people who think the world would be safer today and the energy market in better condition with Saddam in power in Iraq gets smaller and smaller.
Yes, the world is safer now that instead of one nutjob trying to get a finger on the button, Iraq is now filled with thousands hoping to get their fingers on one. And the energy market was going to hit bottom anyway. Oil is antiquated. Face it--the world needed to move on, and this was the impetus. (Actually, it's America that needs to move on--several places in the EU are already doing great with alternative energy, mostly government-sponsored like Obama proposes.)

Saying "Drill, drill, drill!" in 2008 is like saying "Typewriter, typewriter, typewriter!" in 1992. Just plain dumb.

STING, I enjoy it when you say things like "the number of people is growing smaller" when you base the thought entirely on your own opinion. I then enjoy it even more when you follow up by quoting one or two op-ed pieces as proof of a massive movement.
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Old 09-16-2008, 07:33 PM   #868
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Yes, the world is safer now that instead of one nutjob trying to get a finger on the button, Iraq is now filled with thousands hoping to get their fingers on one. And the energy market was going to hit bottom anyway. Oil is antiquated. Face it--the world needed to move on, and this was the impetus. (Actually, it's America that needs to move on--several places in the EU are already doing great with alternative energy, mostly government-sponsored like Obama proposes.)

Saying "Drill, drill, drill!" in 2008 is like saying "Typewriter, typewriter, typewriter!" in 1992. Just plain dumb.

STING, I enjoy it when you say things like "the number of people is growing smaller" when you base the thought entirely on your own opinion. I then enjoy it even more when you follow up by quoting one or two op-ed pieces as proof of a massive movement.

The threat that Saddam posed to Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, the worlds key source of energy, no longer exist in the Iraq of 2008. Not only does Iraq currently not possess the military capabilities of Saddam's Iraq, but more importantly it does not have a government with the history of behavior like that of Saddam's regime, or that has intentions for the future similar to what Saddam's regime had.

Oil is vital to the current global economy and will be for years to come. It impacts the price of nearly everything that you purchase, including the food that you eat. Despite all the talk of alternative energy, nothing currently impacts the global economy more than the price of oil. Even a country like Brazil that no longer imports oil is still impacted by any sort of oil crises, because they import and export billions of dollars worth of goods every year with the rest of the world. The price that Brazil pays for its imports goes up, as the price of oil goes up. When the price of oil negativelly impacts the global economy, it impacts how much Brazil can export.

There is currently no alternative energy source that has been able to change the global economy's current dependence on oil. Hopefully this will change in the future, but in the short term, its vital to keep the planets most important source of energy safe, secure, and as cheap as possible.
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Old 09-16-2008, 07:44 PM   #869
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Originally Posted by Strongbow View Post
The threat that Saddam posed to Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, the worlds key source of energy, no longer exist in the Iraq of 2008. Not only does Iraq currently not possess the military capabilities of Saddam's Iraq, but more importantly it does not have a government with the history of behavior like that of Saddam's regime, or that has intentions for the future similar to what Saddam's regime had.
The latter statement is true only because Iraq has a government with no history at all. The future and safety of the country, the region, and its oil have not been determined--and it would be folly for one to believe that they have.
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Old 09-16-2008, 07:49 PM   #870
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http://forum.interference.com/f199/a...-188367-8.html

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Old 09-16-2008, 08:01 PM   #871
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another timely contribution from the desk of mr <>:

Jesus and the Democrat

A Republican in a wheelchair entered a restaurant one afternoon and
asked the waitress for a cup of coffee. The Republican looked across
the restaurant and asked, 'Is that Jesus sitting over there?'
The waitress nodded 'yes,' so the Republican requested that she
give Jesus a cup of coffee, on him.

The next patron to come in was a Libertarian with a hunched back. He
shuffled over to a booth, painfully sat down, and asked the waitress
for a cup of hot tea. He also glanced across the restaurant and
asked, 'Is that Jesus over there?'
The waitress nodded, so the Libertarian asked her to give Jesus a
cup of hot tea, 'My treat.'
The third patron to come into the restaurant was a Democrat on
crutches. He hobbled over to a booth, sat down and hollered, 'Hey
there, honey! How's about getting' me a cold glass of Miller
Light?' He, too, looked across the restaurant and asked, 'Is that
God's boy over there?'
The waitress once more nodded, so the Democrat directed her to give
Jesus a cold glass of beer. 'On my bill,' he said.
As Jesus got up to leave, he passed by the Republican, touched him
and said, 'For your kindness, you are healed.'

The Republican felt the strength come back into his legs, got up,
and danced a jig out the door.
Jesus also passed by the Libertarian, touched him and said, 'For
your kindness, you are healed.

The Libertarian felt his back straightening up, and he raised his
hands, praised the Lord and did a series of back flips out the door.

Then Jesus walked towards the Democrat. The Democrat jumped up and
yelled, 'Don't touch me .. I'm collecting disability.'
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Old 09-16-2008, 08:10 PM   #872
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^ The problem with that joke is that the Republican wouldn't have offered Jesus a coffee. He would've given it to God and hoped that it would trickle down.
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Old 09-16-2008, 08:12 PM   #873
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Someone cut his mic, please.
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Old 09-16-2008, 08:12 PM   #874
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ha ha.
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Old 09-16-2008, 08:13 PM   #875
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Quote:
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^ The problem with that joke is that the Republican wouldn't have offered Jesus a coffee. He would've given it to God and hoped that it would trickle down.
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Old 09-16-2008, 08:15 PM   #876
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The latter statement is true only because Iraq has a government with no history at all. The future and safety of the country, the region, and its oil have not been determined--and it would be folly for one to believe that they have.
The fact remains, Kuwait and the rest of the Persian Gulf currently is far safer than it was when Saddam was in power. The largest threat to Persian Gulf Oil supply has been removed. Yes, the current government of Iraq has only been in place a few years, but it is already far different from Saddam's regime. There currently is no Iraqi entity in Iraq that has the ability to threaten Persian Gulf Oil Supply as Saddam's regime did.
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Old 09-16-2008, 08:17 PM   #877
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McCain Has the Advantage Over Obama in Post-Convention Polls
September 16, 2008 02:49 PM ET | Michael Barone | Permanent Link


The post-convention national polls mostly show John McCain with a small lead over Barack Obama. But what's been happening in the states? I've been looking at the post-convention state polls at realclearpolitics.com, pollster.com, and fivethirtyeight.com and find some significant differences from pre-convention polls. They tend to suggest that the battlefield is shifting, with more states within McCain's reach and fewer within Obama's.

Some caution is in order: We're talking about only one or two polls in some states but as many as eight in ultracritical Ohio. I haven't included the Zogby Internet polls in my analysis. I've rounded off the averages in each state to full percentages (and rounded 0.5s downwards for both candidates), and I'm reporting the difference between the McCain percentage and Obama percentage. Here's my analysis:

The big industrial states. Michigan and Pennsylvania are Obama +2, Ohio is McCain +3. In each case, McCain is 1 point better than Bush's final percentage against Kerry in each state. An old rule of American politics is that economic distress moves voters toward Democrats. Michigan, Ohio, and western Pennsylvania are in economic distress. But they haven't moved toward the Democratic nominee, as compared with 2004. The old rule isn't operating. Here's another possible rule. When voters see that tax increases aren't producing a better economy, they don't move toward a Democratic nominee who is proposing higher taxes, even though he says they'll hit only the rich. In Michigan, the Democrats (with a few turncoat Republicans) raised taxes in 2007; in Ohio, the Republicans (with some Democratic support) raised taxes before 2006. Those tax increases haven't helped those states' economies, not so as you'd notice, though they've helped members of public employees unions. McCain was running much worse than this in pre-convention polls in Pennsylvania and somewhat worse in Michigan. His convention bounce gives him a good chance to win the electoral votes of Pennsylvania (21) and Michigan (17), while leaving him in pretty good shape in Ohio (20).

The new marginals. Obama has been running consistently better than John Kerry or Al Gore in Colorado and Virginia, states that have had comparatively vibrant economies and have also seen influxes of young voters, who tend to be heavily pro-Obama. Just look at all those singles rental apartments and loft-like condos in Arlington and Alexandria and LoDo in Denver. Colorado comes out of the conventions as +1 Obama, Virginia as +1 McCain. In both cases, the average is depressed by one poll that shows the state going the other way. Colorado (9 electoral votes) and Virginia (13) are still very hotly contested ground.

The northern tier. The Obama campaign had hoped to be competitive in some northern tier states: the Dakotas, Montana, and Alaska. Pre-convention polls provided some reasonable basis for this hope. Post-convention polls don't. Alaska, unsurprisingly, is McCain-Palin +27. Montana is McCain +11, North Dakota McCain +14, South Dakota +17. More importantly, Minnesota is just Obama +1, Wisconsin Obama +3, Washington Obama +4, Oregon Obama +7. So scratch 12 electoral votes as plausible Obama targets and add 38 electoral votes as plausible McCain targets (or, excluding Oregon, 31 electoral votes). This is a big change, and it remains to be seen if later polls will show these states to be as close as the relatively few polls we've seen so far do.

The western odd ducks. Nevada is McCain +2. New Mexico, in a shift from pre-convention polls, is McCain +2 (but that's only one poll). These states were seriously contested in 2000 and 2004 and look to be again in 2008.

The South. Florida is McCain +5; it was Bush +5 in 2004. North Carolina is McCain +11; it was Bush +12 in 2004 (despite the presence on the Democratic ticket of the now happily forgotten John Edwards). But two North Carolina polls show McCain way ahead (+17 and +20); two others show him, as did most pre-convention polls, narrowly ahead (+3 and +4). I have more respect for the polling firms showing the big McCain margins, but this state still bears watching. Georgia, where Obama has sent scads of organizers, is McCain +16.

The Northeast. One poll shows New Hampshire Obama +6 (Zogby Interactive has McCain ahead there): inconclusive. Three polls show New Jersey as Obama +6; it was Kerry +7 in 2004. Astonishingly, one poll shows New York as Obama +5, but this is Siena, which seems to have a lot more undecideds than other New York polls, which have shown Obama well above 50 percent. The New Jersey and New York numbers may tempt the McCain campaign to start advertising on New York City media. I suspect this is a temptation that will and should be resisted, for the time being.

There are a lot of states with no post-convention polls, including interesting ones like Indiana and (if only because of its 55 electoral votes) California. My overall conclusion is that the playing field has shifted in favor of McCain. He seems competitive now, where he arguably wasn't before the conventions, in Pennsylvania (21 electoral votes), Wisconsin (10), Minnesota (10), Washington (11), and maybe Oregon (7): a total of 59 electoral votes, all carried by John Kerry and Al Gore. Obama no longer seems competitive in North Dakota (3), Montana (3), and Alaska (3): a total of 9 electoral votes.

Or to look at it another way, from Bush's 2004 electoral vote total of 286, you now have to subtract Iowa (7), which is Obama +12 in the latest Des Moines Register poll, and maybe Colorado (9), Virginia (13), and New Mexico (5), which gets the Republican total down to 252. Or to 247, if you include Nevada (5). But in the northern tier there are 63 more electoral votes within reasonable reach of McCain in the northern tier and New Hampshire. And maybe he wants to start looking at New Jersey (15). I see Obama as competitive or leading in states with 338 electoral votes (granting him the 27 in Florida, which looks to me increasingly unlikely). I see McCain as competitive or leading in states with 342 electoral votes. Advantage shifting toward McCain.
McCain Has the Advantage Over Obama in Post-Convention Polls - Michael Barone (usnews.com)
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Old 09-16-2008, 09:53 PM   #878
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"A study coming out Tuesday from scholars at Columbia, Harvard, Purdue and Michigan projects that 20 million Americans who have employment-based health insurance would lose it under the McCain plan."

...the McCain health plan would treat employer-paid health benefits as income that employees would have to pay taxes on."


http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/16/op...on&oref=slogin

My initial reaction was "yeeeeeeeeeeesh." That's quite a bit of an understatement, though.
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Old 09-17-2008, 03:49 AM   #879
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A more accurate way of looking at these figures is to..........
....spin them so they don't look as bad.

Yes, we understand.
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Old 09-17-2008, 08:42 AM   #880
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(CNN) — Top McCain-Palin official Carly Fiorina is facing criticism from some within the campaign for a day of what they call "very Biden-like" comments, after the former Hewlett-Packard CEO told two separate interviewers that neither member of the Republican ticket would be capable of running a company.

Democratic VP nominee Joe Biden is noted for his off-the-cuff gaffes.

Asked by a St. Louis radio station whether she thought Republican vice presidential nominee Sarah Palin could run a company like Hewlett-Packard, Fiorina responded: "No, I don't.

“But that's not what she's running for. Running a corporation is a different set of things."

Asked about that remark on MSNBC, she made the same unprompted assessment of the GOP presidential nominee. "I don't think John McCain could run a major corporation."

She also said she did not believe Democrats Barack Obama or Joe Biden had the right business background either.

But with the economy center stage in the campaign, the words that gave Democrats easy fodder to attack the Republican ticket.

A top McCain official contacted by CNN said, on condition on anonymity, "No big deal, but not how you get on the surrogate all-star team. Very Biden-like."

“This campaign source said Fiorina would be discouraged from additional media interviews.

Another top campaign adviser was far less diplomatic.

"Carly will now disappear," this source said. "Senator McCain was furious." Asked to define "disappear," this source said, adding that she would be off TV for a while – but remain at the Republican National Committee and keep her role as head of the party’s joint fundraising committee with the McCain campaign.

Fiorina was booked for several TV interviews over the next few days, including one on CNN. Those interviews have been canceled.

A third source said "it was another bad day for her, and important people are mad because the timing is horrible… But I would not necessarily buy the Siberia storyline."

Fiorina has forced the campaign off message before. In July, she told reporters women often express frustration over the fact many health insurance plans cover Viagra but not birth control medication.

"Let me give you a real, live example, which I've been hearing a lot about from women. There are many health insurance plans that will cover Viagra but won't cover birth control medication. Those women would like a choice," she said.

It was a topic McCain wasn’t as keen to talk about. "I certainly do not want to discuss that issue," he said, when reporters asked if he shared that view.” That comment, and the pause that preceded it, captured headlines for days.
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