US 08 Presidential Campaign General Discussion Thread #7

[anitram]

I except this 100 %.

and these are legitimate concerns that I share.

Why it is not a deal breaker for me?

Here are a few more dealbreakers for me:

John McCain has received a 0% rating from Naral Pro-Choice America over his past eight years in the Senate. In his career in the House and Senate, John McCain has cast 130 votes on womens’ choice, 125 of which oppose women’s choice. Source: NARAL

His website states, "John McCain believes Roe v. Wade is a flawed decision that must be overturned, and as president he will nominate judges who understand that courts should not be in the business of legislating from the bench." Source: JohnMcCain.com

John McCain has voted against family planning, against access to women’s clinics, and even against funding for teen-pregnancy prevention. He supports abstinence-only education, even though studies show that it only increases pregnancy and puts teens at greater risk for disease. Source: NPR, February 2, 2008, available at NPR.org

John McCain voted to shut down the Title X family-planning program, which provide millions of women with breast cancer screenings and birth control. Source: Huffington Post

John McCain voted against a bill that funded sex education, provided access to emergency contraception to prevent pregnancy, increased funding to family planning services, and expanded teen-pregnancy-prevention programs. Source: OnTheIssues.org

John McCain strongly supports abstinence-only education in schools, despite extensive research demonstrating that it increases teen pregnancy and sexually-transmitted disease rates. Source: San Francisco Gate, February 16, 2007, available at sfgate.com

John McCain opposes fair pay for women. He thinks it is fine for employers to pay women less than men for equal work. In 2008 he refused to vote for the Lily Ledbetter Fair Pay Act, which allows women to receive equal pay for equal qualifications to a man. John McCain said that instead of fair pay for equal work, women need more "education and training." Source: Huffington Post.

In 1990, John McCain also voted against a bill that would have strengthened civil rights in the workplace and banned discrimination on the base of sex. Source: Senate.gov

 

[deep]

let's note that the Obama people haven't used this stuff. maybe they should.

seriously

look at those 10 examples

Here are the Romney campaign's top 10 episodes of "the McCain way"

1. Defending His Amnesty Bill, Sen. McCain Lost His Temper And Screamed, "F*ck You!" At Texas Sen. John Cornyn (R-TX).
2. In 2000, Sen. McCain Ran An Attack Ad Comparing Then-Gov. George W. Bush To Bill Clinton.
3. Sen. McCain Repeatedly Called Sen. Pete Domenici (R-NM) an "A**hole," Causing A Fellow GOP Senator To Say, "I Didn't Want This Guy Anywhere Near A Trigger."
4. Sen. McCain Had A Heated Exchange With Sen. Charles Grassley (R-IA) And Called Him A "F*cking Jerk."
5. In 1995, Sen. McCain Had A "Scuffle" With 92-Year-Old Sen. Strom Thurmond (R-SC) On The Senate Floor.
6. Sen. McCain Accused Sen. Mitch McConnell (R-KY) Of the "Most Egregious Incident" Of Corruption He Had Seen In The Senate.
7. Sen. McCain Attacked Christian Leaders And Republicans In A Blistering Speech During The 2000 Campaign.
8. Sen. McCain Attacked Vice President Cheney.
9. Celebrating His First Senate Election In 1986, Sen. McCain Screamed At And Harassed A Young Republican Volunteer.
10. Sen. McCain "Publicly Abused" Senator Richard Shelby (R-AL).

if Obama uses them

who wins ?

what votes are up for grabs ?


Moderates,
independents,
Reagan Democrats,
some PUMAs?

McCain cursing out a bunch of hard core conservatives
this is a bad thing?

seems like a true maverick to me.

 

[anitram]

seems like a true maverick to me.

Seems like another frat boy who hasn't learned proper adult decorum to me.

Has the world not had enough of that?

 

[Irvine511]

seems like a true maverick to me.

or a sell out.

 

[Strongbow]

Anyway, the Obama campaign is in trouble at this point.

They seemingly haven't seen much uplift in the polls from the combined VP announcement, Hilary's endorsement and the Democrats' conference.

Of course, there is still much to play for.

The Bounce is finally starting to show up in the polls. Just two days ago, McCain jumped ahead in the Gallup poll for the first time since May. Yesterday, he was only down by 1 point, but today, Obama is now leading 48% to 42% or by 6 points. The poll is impacted by the first two nights of the convention and part of the 3rd night. The entire impact of the convention won't be seen in the polls until Saturday though.

The Republican Party is predicting a 15 point bounce for Obama from the convention. With today's Gallup poll, he is nearly half way there.


Gallup Daily: Obama Moves Ahead, 48% to 42%

 

[phillyfan26]

The election occurs in November. Two months later, I turn 18. Two weeks after that, a new president is put into place. And then just seven months after that, I'll be off to college.

Depending on who that president is, I may or may not be able to pay for that college education.

 

[anitram]

Depending on who that president is, I may or may not be able to pay for that college education.

To be perfectly honest

I don't think it matters all that much. At least not for the immediate future, which is what pertains to you.

 

[phillyfan26]

How long do you believe it will take for policies to take effect?

 

[deep]

The election occurs in November. Two months later, I turn 18. Two weeks after that, a new president is put into place. And then just seven months after that, I'll be off to college.

Depending on who that president is, I may or may not be able to pay for that college education.

I went to college in the 70s.
and most of my friends that went to State Colleges got through without all this unbearable debt.

I don't understand why young people today have so much debt.

 

[anitram]

Well the first thing is pushing this through Congress - we'll see.

Secondly, they can only really regulate state schools effectively. If you are particularly ambitious and have your eyes set on a place like Harvard or Yale, you're going to be paying the going market rate regardless. The public v. private sphere is what has made America the undisputed educational leader in the world. Yes, you have places like Oxbridge, which are right at the top, but by and large, most of the top academic institutions in the world are in the US. The amount of money and endowment value of a private university like Harvard cannot be matched by public international faculties, and this has attracted a lot of the top talent. I think things are evening out a bit and some of the Bush's anti-science stance has certainly helped research institutes abroad flourish. But still, your private schools are mostly what makes you the envy of the world, but they are also places that are out of the reach of the middle class at this point (save for full or nearly full scholarships).

So whatever is done by the government is only going to be a partial solution at best.

 

[anitram]

I went to college in the 70s.
and most of my friends that went to State Colleges got through without all this unbearable debt.

I don't understand why young people today have so much debt.

I'll give you a good example.

My friend got into Harvard with a $12,500 scholarship/year. This was back in 1999. Tuition was around $35,000. Living expenses in Cambridge/Boston easily add another $12K/year. Which means that he had to come up with about $34,000 per year for 4 years.

Where was he going to get this money from? His parents could help him minimally - pay for his flights to come home at Christmas, etc and maybe a couple of thousand bucks + textbooks on top of that. His summer job would maybe yield some $6-8K/year. And the rest? Student loans. x 4 years. And that only leaves you with a measly BA or BS which is pretty much worthless in today's economy.

So he stayed in Canada. There, his tuition was $6K, his living expenses maybe $12K/year. Books and so on add another $1K. So now he was only in debt $10K/year. But still after 4 years, you're looking at $40K. And again, only a BA or a BS. And this is a state school, not an expensive private institution.

Even in Canada, law school cost me about $25K/year to attend. Where are we supposed to get all that $ from, exactly, if our parents are not in a position to pay?

 

[phillyfan26]

I went to college in the 70s.
and most of my friends that went to State Colleges got through without all this unbearable debt.

I don't understand why young people today have so much debt.

My most likely place of education will be Penn State. Its tuition per year is about $12,000 right now. Add $11,000 for room and board, you're at $23,000. For my first year. Then there's living expenses for the whole year. And then all the prices go up each year as I continue to go to college.

And my parents are not paying for my college education. And I'm not eligible for financial aid because of the pay bracket of my father. So, basically, I'll be in the neighborhood of $100,000 in debt, barring any scholarships, by the time I end college, off-set only by the money I make working while attending school.

 

[2861U2]

Depending on who that president is, I may or may not be able to pay for that college education.

I'm sorry, but give me a break.

I don't know what your financial situation is, but as someone in college right now, I know people from all economic backgrounds here. I'm sure people somewhere in this country are going to college who are worse off than you. Don't pretend like if McCain gets elected, nobody will be able to afford college.

ETA: Sorry, that sounds a little harsh. I didn't read what you had posted a few seconds before above me.

 

[deep]

I'm sorry, but give me a break.


ETA: Sorry, that sounds a little harsh. I didn't read what you had posted a few seconds before above me.

let's not be harsh

but I think he really means:

Depending on who that president is, I may be able to pay for his college education.

 

[Dreadsox]

Dude, if you seriously think that military service makes one competent to lead a country, you're an idiot. I know more douchebags who've been in the military than I care to know. Not that I'm saying that military service makes you stupid or that idiots go into the military---my grandfather was a WWII vet and an amazing person. However, you can be a hero in war when your life is on the line and still be an ignorant asshole.

It takes all kinds....just like on a message board....

The difference is though, they are sacraficing their lives and freedom daily. Maybe you should enlist, and get a feel for the love one gets from a Drill Instructor. Enlisting in the military is a sacrafice.

People serve this country in many ways, I think the peace corps is a wonderful way to serve. And hell, if you have ever read my posts, I want a national two year service program, where kids enter some form of national service and get compensated with lower college costs.

But I digress.

There are many things to admire about people who serve. Douchbags or not, at least they are doing something for the country. Unfortunately, they have douchbags at home typing on message boards not giving a shite about what it takes. Maybe if some internet posters removed their heads from the fourth point of contact, they would see that. But, maybe its easier for them to type stupid shite while it is in there.

http://www.doubletongued.org/index.php/dictionary/fourth_point_of_contact/

 

[anitram]

In the end, I think it will mostly come down to voter turnout. You have a volatile group of younger voters that traditionally do not show up - can Obama repeat Iowa and raid those campuses? Remains to be seen.

Another thing is African American voters. Let's face it, McCain has lost this group, he'll be lucky to get 2-3% if that many. He has absolutely no shot here at all. So the question is numbers. They were discussing Florida specifically on CNN and there were apparently 600,000 registered AA voters who did not cast a vote in Florida in 2004. The Obama campaign believes that mathematically if they can get 15-30% of these voters, that alone swings the election. I don't think that we should discount them, as AA voters had been showing up in huge numbers as the primaries went on. Only time will tell what happens in November, but there are certainly states where their numbers alone may be the deciding factor.

Who would have thought it 50 years ago....

 

[financeguy]

Only time will tell what happens in November, but there are certainly states where their numbers alone may be the deciding factor.

IF they come out and vote.

And that's why people like Jesse Jackson need to get up off their asses, apologise for their absurd insinuations, back at the time of the nominations, that Obama is not really a true black, and start campaigning (even though, if I recall correctly, people defended Jackson's bullshit on here)

 

[anitram]

IF they come out and vote.

And that's why people like Jesse Jackson need to get up off their asses, apologise for their absurd insinuations, back at the time of the nominations, that Obama is not really a true black, and start campaigning (even though, if I recall correctly, people defended Jackson's bullshit on here)

Yes, again this is another group that doesn't always show up.

I am not African American and besides that, the AA community isn't singular. However, from AA people my age, I question the influence of Jesse Jackson in the community, especially among the younger generation.

 

[yolland]

Unfortunately, they have douchbags at home typing on message boards not giving a shite about what it takes. Maybe if some internet posters removed their heads from the fourth point of contact, they would see that. But, maybe its easier for them to type stupid shite while it is in there.

http://www.doubletongued.org/index.php/dictionary/fourth_point_of_contact/

This is worse than what he said to you.

No more back-and-forth on this one, please.

 

[Dreadsox]

This is worse than what he said to you.

No more back-and-forth on this one, please.

So noted.

Having served...I have my thoughts...and will keep them to myself.

 

[financeguy]

As a woman, I have never and would never vote for a person who is not pro-choice. His voting record on women's issues is appalling to me. That's enough for me, it's personal enough that I would not vote for him. Period.

Are your for real? Sorry, but really and truly the above reads what some right wing talking head like Glen Beck would come up with if he trying to satirise left wing opinion.

 

[anitram]

Absolutely for real. My Mom would also not vote for anybody who is not pro-choice and to be honest I can't think of a single woman of my age that I am friendly with who would either. Even the Church going ones.

You seem to think this is a fringe view. I can assure you that it most certainly is not.

 

[Dreadsox]

I do not think I have ever advocated that a candidate should be in the military but I found this sad, how few have served as President without a military conflict:

Presidents who served in wars

George Washington - Commander in Chief of Continental Army during the American Revolution.
James Monroe - served in American Revolution
Andrew Jackson - American Revolution, War of 1812, First Seminole War
William Henry Harrison - Indian wars in the NW territory, War of 1812
John Tyler - War of 1812
Zachary Taylor - War of 1812, Black Hawk, Second Seminole, and Mexican wars
Franklin Pierce - Mexican War
James Buchanan - War of 1812
Abraham Lincoln - Black Hawk War
Andrew Johnson - Civil War
Ulysses Grant - Mexican War, Civil War
Rutherford Hayes - Civil War
James Garfield - Civil War
Chester Arthur - Civil War
Benjamin Harrison - Civil War
William McKinley - Civil War
Theodore Roosevelt - Spanish-American War
Harry Truman - WWI
Dwight Eisenhower - WWII General
John Kennedy - WWII
Lyndon Johnson - WWII
Richard Nixon - WWII
Gerald Ford - WWII
George Bush - WWII

Presidents who were in the military but who saw no action

James Madison
James Polk
Millard Fillmore
Jimmy Carter
Ronald Reagan - kept out of combat due to bad eyesight
George W. Bush

Presidents with no military experience

John Adams
Thomas Jefferson
John Quincy Adams
Martin Van Buren
Grover Cleveland
William Taft
Woodrow Wilson
Warren Harding
Calvin Coolidge
Herbert Hoover
Franklin Roosevelt
Bill Clinton

Presidents during wartime

George Washington: war with Native Americans in Ohio
Thomas Jefferson: Tripolitan War, 1800-1805, against the Barbary pirates
James Madison - War of 1812, 1812-1814, against the British
James Monroe - First Seminole War, 1817-1818
Andrew Jackson - Black Hawk War, 1832
Martin Van Buren - Aroostook War, 1839; Second Seminole War - ended 1842
William Henry Harrison - Second Seminole War - ended 1842
John Tyler - Second Seminole War - ended 1842
James Polk - Mexican War
James Buchanan - beginning of the Civil War
Abraham Lincoln - Civil War, 1861-1865
William McKinley - Spanish-American War, 1898; Boxer Rebellion, 1899-1900
Woodrow Wilson - WWI, 1914-1918
Warren Harding - formally concluded WWI
Franklin Roosevelt - WWII, 1941-1945
Harry Truman - conclusion of WWII, Korean War - 1950-1953
Dwight Eisenhower - conclusion of Korean War
John Kennedy - Bay of Pigs Invasion, 1961; beginning of Vietnam War
Lyndon Johnson - Vietnam War, Dominican Republic, 1965
Richard Nixon - Vietnam War
Ronald Reagan - Grenada Invasion, 1983
George Bush - Invasion of Panama, 1989-1990; Persian Gulf War, 1990-1991
George W. Bush - War against the Taliban, Iraq, 2001 to present.

Presidents who did not preside over war during their terms

John Adams
John Quincy Adams
Zachary Taylor
Millard Fillmore
Franklin Pierce
Andrew Johnson
Ulysses Grant
James Garfield
Chester Arthur
Grover Cleveland
Theodore Roosevelt
William Taft
Calvin Coolidge
Herbert Hoover
Jimmy Carter

 

[namkcuR]

Presidents with no military experience

John Adams
Thomas Jefferson
John Quincy Adams
Martin Van Buren
Grover Cleveland
William Taft
Woodrow Wilson
Warren Harding
Calvin Coolidge
Herbert Hoover
Franklin Roosevelt
Bill Clinton

One could argue that's a good handful of the best presidents we've ever had.

 

[deep]

Presidents during wartime


Ronald Reagan - Grenada Invasion, 1983

Presidents during wartime


Presidents who did not preside over war during their terms

Bill Clinton is not on either list ?

 

[Dreadsox]

Gave Clint his last war movie...lol

 

[deep]

The election occurs in November. Two months later, I turn 18. Two weeks after that, a new president is put into place. And then just seven months after that, I'll be off to college.

Depending on who that president is, I may or may not be able to pay for that college education.

I went to Obama site

and found this information

Make Community College and College Education Affordable

Obama will create a new American Opportunity Tax Credit that will make tuition at the nation’s community
colleges completely free and will cover up to two-thirds the cost of tuition at the nation’s public colleges and
universities. This $4,000 tax credit will be fully refundable and available at the time of enrollment in college
– when families need the money.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

So do I, but that doesn't mean I'd resort to making light of their experiences to make my point if I felt they were exploiting them.

People were making light of the way he is bringing up being a POW, not of his actual experience being a POW. That's what I was doing. Sorry, I'm confused as to why anyone would think otherwise. That's all, nothing more to say about that.

 

[Dreadsox]

You can look at it multiple ways. The "lying down" comment in this forum and "he's been lying ever since" while a funny play on words to some, I found quite offensive to twist what he went through and imply the man is nothing but a liar.

I made my point that Obama's camp has also committed falshoods. I am satisfied my point has been made.


I find it childish to say your guy has lied more than my guy or worse than my guy. It is sad, that right left cannot just admit that campaigns lie and move on.

 

[Irvine511]

You can look at it multiple ways. The "lying down" comment in this forum and "he's been lying ever since" while a funny play on words to some, I found quite offensive to twist what he went through and imply the man is nothing but a liar.

i don't see how Dieman's clearly satirical quote is all that different from this quote, given on Leno, of all glib places:

LENO: For a million dollars, how many houses do you have?

McCAIN: Could I just mention to you, Jay, that, in a moment of seriousness, I spent five-and-a-half years in a prison cell. I didn’t have a house. I didn’t have a kitchen table. I didn’t have a table. I didn’t have a chair. And I spent those five-and-a-half years because, not because I wanted to get a house when I got out.

I find it childish to say your guy has lied more than my guy or worse than my guy. It is sad, that right left cannot just admit that campaigns lie and move on.

and i will stand by my statement that the degree of distortion -- particularly in that "tiny" ad -- is far greater than any that Obama has committed.