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Old 02-12-2004, 10:53 AM   #1
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Urban Terrorism - And It's Legal!!!

American Heritage Dictionary: Terrorism: The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons.

Who gets to threaten force or violence against average citizens?

Unions!

Southern California has been the home to a grocery store labor dispute for the last five months. No progress has been made and until this week, there have been no talks between the parties for months.

Last night, local news showed picketers challenging and intimidating store patrons, following them to their cars, forcing signs in their faces, pushing and shoving, etc. The rally cry of the Union bosses is to "make the shopping experience unpleasant" for those who choose to shop at these grocery stores.

Unions served a great purpose 80-100 years ago. Today, they act to bring fear to everyday shoppers. It is time for a change.
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Old 02-12-2004, 11:34 AM   #2
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My grandpa was in a union. He worked as head plumber for the city for over 50 years. But I don't think he really cared for the union; when they went on strike he had to find other odd jobs. I think the last time he had to strike was 1981. Sometimes people get forced into the union because they're in the minority that has to work to support a large family no matter what the conditions.
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Old 02-12-2004, 11:58 AM   #3
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Re: Urban Terrorism - And It's Legal!!!

Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
American Heritage Dictionary: Terrorism: The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons.

Who gets to threaten force or violence against average citizens?

Unions!

Southern California has been the home to a grocery store labor dispute for the last five months. No progress has been made and until this week, there have been no talks between the parties for months.

Last night, local news showed picketers challenging and intimidating store patrons, following them to their cars, forcing signs in their faces, pushing and shoving, etc. The rally cry of the Union bosses is to "make the shopping experience unpleasant" for those who choose to shop at these grocery stores.

Unions served a great purpose 80-100 years ago. Today, they act to bring fear to everyday shoppers. It is time for a change.

I am SOOOOOOO sick of this strike and the tactics the striking employees have stooped to.

All I can say is that hope when they do go back to work, the shopping public treats them with the same respect they've been treating us with...NONE!
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Old 02-12-2004, 04:32 PM   #4
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What a bunch of jerks. These tactics are disgusting.
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Old 02-12-2004, 07:03 PM   #5
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I don't agree with their tactics. By acting this way they are hurting their cause greatly. They loose a lot of support that they otherwise might have.

I think that unions still play a very important role in our society, cause employers certainly aren't going to look out for the best interests. They are corporations and profit is the bottom line. It's already very difficult to find working class jobs that pay a living wage and without unions i fear that there will soon be even less.
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Old 02-13-2004, 10:00 AM   #6
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I agree, I think unions have an important role to play. Employers are into profits, period. That's why they are using so much cheap labor in China. But I do not like this behavior. It's counterproductive.
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Old 02-13-2004, 10:23 AM   #7
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It is amazing that everyone is lead to believe that Unions are for the little people against big profit oriented corporations. If anyone took a look at unions, they would realize they are just like corporations! Union bosses pull down huge salaries.

Take the grocery store workers for example. They receive $100/week strike pay (for which they must walk picket lines - no taking other full-time jobs), however, they still must pay union dues. The head of the Orange County chapter of this union continues to pull down a salary in excess of $200K! This is a cruel joke on union members.
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Old 02-13-2004, 10:24 AM   #8
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NBC, are you seriously comparing being obnoxious and pushy in a supermarket parking lot to BLOWING UP said supermarket? Your comparison is in poor taste at the least, and it strains credibility.

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Old 02-13-2004, 11:02 AM   #9
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Lighten up and think. Fear can be induced by actions other than blowing up something. It is now the stated goal of the union officials to instill fear in shoppers.
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Old 02-13-2004, 12:15 PM   #10
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Lighten up about false accusations of terrorism? In a word, no.

I was hoping you were using a bit of hyperbole to make a point that union tactics can leave a lot to be desired, and even be counterproductive. That might be a credible stance. You could have even argued that in this case, there isn't much vaild to strike about. Might be true. But that's not the choice you made. You chose to call them terrorists.

I've always liked and respected you and your views, even when I didn't agree. This has ended that, if you seriously believe that murder and shouting are the same thing.



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Old 02-13-2004, 12:19 PM   #11
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That is why I included an independent definition of terrorism. Killing people does not equal terrorism. That's murder. Threatening force or violence to create fear is terrorism.
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Old 02-13-2004, 01:33 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sherry Darling
Lighten up about false accusations of terrorism? In a word, no.

I was hoping you were using a bit of hyperbole to make a point that union tactics can leave a lot to be desired, and even be counterproductive. That might be a credible stance. You could have even argued that in this case, there isn't much vaild to strike about. Might be true. But that's not the choice you made. You chose to call them terrorists.

I've always liked and respected you and your views, even when I didn't agree. This has ended that, if you seriously believe that murder and shouting are the same thing.



sd
Sherry I think you should look at the definition or terrorism that was provided by Nbcrusader in the first post. Terrorism does not have to involve killing. I think Nbcrusader is right unions are extremely curropt and use methods of striking fear into individuals in order to get there way. I've had some experience working with unions up in the Northeast since I work in the construction industry and believe me I think Nbc's comparison is closer than you think. Unions have also had a history of having ties with the mafia and using violence to get their way.

I'm not saying every union or every individual in a union are like this. In fact many individuals join union because it's a neccesary evil.
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Old 02-13-2004, 03:34 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
Fear can be induced by actions other than blowing up something.
You bet.

This administration is a perfect example.

Quote:
Originally posted by Sherry Darling
You chose to call them terrorists.
Well, organizations like the ELF/ALF are considered to be domestic terrorists and I would agree with that assessment, although they are not necessarily involved in bombing buildings or murder.
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Old 02-13-2004, 03:59 PM   #14
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In NB's defense, if I were to walk up to someone and say "I'm going to kill you" I could be arrested for making a terrorist threat, at least in California.
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Old 02-13-2004, 04:38 PM   #15
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If they are threatening to *kill* people I can see why that could be construed as terrorism. I personally wouldn't call lesser threats terrorism, although I would certainly consider this sort of behavior as very reprehensible, disgusting and totally counterproductive. My paranoia level has definitely jumped since all of that happened at the library.
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Old 02-13-2004, 07:02 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
It is amazing that everyone is lead to believe that Unions are for the little people against big profit oriented corporations. If anyone took a look at unions, they would realize they are just like corporations! Union bosses pull down huge salaries.

Take the grocery store workers for example. They receive $100/week strike pay (for which they must walk picket lines - no taking other full-time jobs), however, they still must pay union dues. The head of the Orange County chapter of this union continues to pull down a salary in excess of $200K! This is a cruel joke on union members.

I'm not saying that unions are perfect. I know that there are abuses and corruption, but if grocery workers were not union I seriously doubt they would be making much more than minimum wage with few benefits (like most service sector/retail jobs pay).
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Old 02-13-2004, 09:04 PM   #17
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Wow, NBCrusader! You can't say anything wihtout getting yourself in trouble inhere! I guess you need to be more politically correct!

For what it's worth, I agree that such harassment as that sometimes employed by modern-day union thugs is terrorism as its sole intent is to TERRORIZE people who are not heeding their cause by harrasing said people to the point of putting fear and intimidation into them, or, if they harass the WRONG person, provoking a violent, defensive reaction from that person and thus creating a spectacle of violence ("That SCAB attacked me on the picket line!").

I am not entirely against unions as I think in some instances their purpose is necessary. However, I do not think they are always right, and I sure as hell don't think they are anywhere close to being clean.

In Alabama, which is a right-to-work state, factory employees at the two (soon to be three) non-union automotive plants make higher wages and enjoy better benefits than their counterparts at the predominantly unionized steel plants up the road. Productivity and morale are higher at the auto plants, while turnover is much lower.

The executive director of Alabama's tlargest teachers union makes over $200,000 annually; this is more than the Governor or the state superintendent of schools make, and teachers in this state's public schools make anywhere from $22,000 to $48,000 annually.

Something's not right.

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Old 02-14-2004, 06:10 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
Unions are ...big profit oriented....
Sorry for the edit...I now agree with this.

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Old 02-14-2004, 06:15 AM   #19
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The executive director of Alabama's tlargest teachers union makes over $200,000 annually; this is more than the Governor or the state superintendent of schools make, and teachers in this state's public schools make anywhere from $22,000 to $48,000 annually.
DO not get me started. I am amazed at what the local Union Leadership makes never mind the executive leadership. ANy time I have a a problem for example:

I was the coach of the Regional and State Championship Robotics Team. I applied for a position to coach robotics during the summer for 8-14 year olds. The school system hired an uncertified person to teach it. Never mind uncertified, but they did not like teaching 3rd, 4th and fifth graders. The next year they cut the 3rd-5th graders out of the program. They never gave me an interview.

I went to the Union because I had not been given an interview, I had not been sent a letter thanking me for applying to acknowledge my application. I found out I did not get the job from the brochure that came to school to send home with the kids.

Now, you would think coaching the regional and state championship team would mean something. You would thing that working with the age group would mean something. You would thing the teching certificate and the degrees would mean something. The program got cut down the next year because this person did not want the younger kids in there. The Union would not do anything.

Or, and I love this, in Massachusetts teacher were given "PERMANENT" certificates. Everyone in the state who had been teaching before 1993, had these words on their certificates. In 1993 the state waived its magoc wand and made them NOT PERMANENT. Every teacher now has to pay money to recertify every five years. The new certificates no longer have the words permanent on them and we have to pay good money every five years to the state.

The theory was that teachers are not taking courses to keep themselves current. What a crock, I take courses all of the time because I am trying to move of the pay scale. I do not get paid based on my job performance. If all of the students in my class pass the standardized state testing, nothing happens. If you perform well at your job, get good evaluations, you are very likely to get a raise.

One final example of the uselessness of the Union. My elementary school was ranked #7 out of around 1,200 elementary schools in the state. We redistricted our town and lost a good chunk of our population of students. We gained what could be labeled a more "difficult" population into our building. Every three years the schools are graded based on the state testing. With redistricting, we dropped to #30. The other school moved up inheriting our students. The killer is, they did not move up that much, and we actually DROPPED less than they moved up. The State labeled my school (#30) a FAILING TO PERFORM because we dropped. The other school moved up was labeled a HIGH PERFORMING SCHOOL (Rank#235) Does this make sense? I am still listening to the silence on the airwaives from the union.

The Union is in the business of making $$$. I watch the younger staff get shafted in negotioations. My wife, 10 years into this career really got shafted during this negotiation. My wife, got shafted during her maternity leave for child number two. My wife was directly told she was not welcome at school in the beginning of the school year by the superintendant of schools because she was pregnant and due in the first month of school. The Union would not adress the issue. If it is not about making money for the Union forget it.

My rookie year teaching, the Union Rep came to my building and said DO NOT STUFF THOSE envelopes. We were supposed to stuff envelopes with test results home from state testing. The people in the building felt this was a secretarial job. They did not want us to stuff them. I taught my class how to fold and stuff envelopes themselves. I NEVER did it myself.

Same year my great-grandmother died A HUGE BLIZZARD was coming in the day of the wake and it was a two hour drive in good conditions to get there. I was DENIED a funeral day because she was not an IMMEDIATE relative. The Union would do nothing for me. Can you imagine.


I have NO use for the Union yet......I am waiting.....maybe someday.
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Old 02-14-2004, 06:34 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox
Same year my great-grandmother died A HUGE BLIZZARD was coming in the day of the wake and it was a two hour drive in good conditions to get there. I was DENIED a funeral day because she was not an IMMEDIATE relative. The Union would do nothing for me. Can you imagine.
I can. This happens to gay couples all the time, because they cannot legally marry. So...just imagine...losing your significant other of 20 years or so and being told that you have no right to time off, because you weren't legally married?

Unions are the least of our worries. Our cowardly and bigoted politicians are the greatest threat.

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