Universality of God...

[FullonEdge]

Ok, I just had to put it out there.

I have sensitive feelings on this topic, and I don't wish to share them for fear of being personally attacked.

I don't want to debate, I just want to observe. Only if anyone is interested, though.

 

[melon]

You won't get personally attacked. Just expect all of your ideas and opinions to be open to full scrutiny and deconstructed into a million pieces.

First off, though, I'd be interested in knowing what you mean by "Universality of God." I think it would be a hard sell, merely because this will be a faith-based approach (read: inarguable "mythic speech"), rather than a scientific or rational approach, most likely.

But, really, I think we should stop insisting that all our belief systems be "rational" or "universal." What's wrong with being "irrational" or "individual" on our approach to God? There's a lot of popular push for "Christian unity," but the last time that happened (pre-Reformation), religion was terribly corrupt. In many ways, if the marketplace is best suited as a competitive marketplace of ideas, rather than a one-choice monopoly, I often believe that religion is best suited similarly. I don't believe God to be a monolithic tyrant to be offended by our capacity to think and reason; after all, that's why we are able to think and reason.

But really...I'm just babbling. I don't even know what you are trying to say yet.

Melon

 

[wolfeden]

eh..
like melon's said, get ready for this to get deconstructed to atoms and then rebuilt to something unrecognizable from the original point....

for my part... I don't recognize any single Deity per se... I'm spiritual but not religious, i guess you could say. and I piss a lot of people off when I tell them that from my personal POV, Jesus and Mohammed and Y'shua and Allah and Odin and Kali-Durga and Krishna and Qwan Yin and Papa Legba and earth, fire, water, wind, sky, spirit, sun moon and stars..... are all just facets that come to people in ways they can accept, all representing the same force, the same life-energy or 'divine spirit'.

Some people get offended by that.. interesting that it's as often been people that claim to be "wiccan" or pagan as more mainstream Judeo-Christian, for all that people like to bash the latter.

personally I tend to find a lot of enlightenment in just relating to it myself without other people's words, without dogma getting between me and what I feel... what I see... what I know.

 

[DaveC]

What gets me is when people say God is male. There's no way that's possible. I see one of 3 options here:

1) There is no God at all
2) God is neither male nor female, but a sort of androgynous spirit
3) God is dual; there is a male supreme being and a female supreme being (ie yin & yang)

 

[TheFirstBigW]

Ok, I just had to put it out there.

In the way that I think you mean "universality", I believe that God is universal in that there is only one creator of us all.
However, if you mean that all of the different religions in the world are really worshipping the same God without realizing it, then I think it's a misconception.

But, really, I think we should stop insisting that all our belief systems be "rational" or "universal." What's wrong with being "irrational" or "individual" on our approach to God? There's a lot of popular push for "Christian unity," but the last time that happened (pre-Reformation), religion was terribly corrupt. In many ways, if the marketplace is best suited as a competitive marketplace of ideas, rather than a one-choice monopoly, I often believe that religion is best suited similarly. I don't believe God to be a monolithic tyrant to be offended by our capacity to think and reason; after all, that's why we are able to think and reason.

Very interesting points, and I actually agree with several of them!

What gets me is when people say God is male. There's no way that's possible.

While I can see how it might contradict your beliefs, I don't know if I would go so far as to say that it's impossible.

 

[melon]

The Hebrew used a gender neutral pronoun, if I remember right, but English doesn't have one. So, as it used to be, by default, if the gender was unknown, "he" would be used. However, some very misogynist religious folk came in and completely disregarded all the gender neutral pronouns and took "he" completely literally.

I tend to think that God is genderless; a pure energy source.

Melon

 

[DaveC]

It just doesn't make sense that God would be male. If God was any single gender it would be female, it seems to me. You know, the whole fertility/reproduction thing...cause that's really what ancient folks worshipped was fertility and they thought that reproduction was the ultimate miracle...the ancient folks would be able to relate more to that so you'd think that the Supreme Being in ancient times would most likely have been a Goddess.

A guy I know says that the Bible has been revised so much that it's incredibly different than it was when it was written. Apparently the whole pillar of cloud/fire in Exodus was a testament to the duality of God. Fire represented male, Cloud represented female (the whole fertility thing coming back into play). Also he said that the Temple in Jerusalem was not just consecrated to YHWH (Yahweh) but also to SHKNH (Shekinah). Yahweh was the male God, Shekinah was the female God...the reason this has disappeared was because of Constantine and the Council of Nicaea in the 4th century AD. I guess they voted on whether Jesus was divine and things like that and also vastly rewrote the Bible, Judaism and Christianity themselves to fit in better with the pagan religions of the time, to make Christianity (which had all of a sudden become the official Roman Empire religion in 313 AD) more palatable to the people of the time who had been worshipping the sun and pagan gods at the time.

There's also some other stuff some guy said to me about the Holy Grail and Mary Magdalene and Jesus but that's a whole other can of worms.

 

[Pearl]

originally posted by DaveC
God is dual; there is a male supreme being and a female supreme being (ie yin & yang)

Do you mean that there are two gods - a male and a female, or God has two aspects, with both male and female features at once?

 

[BVS]

God is not human nor animal etc. and wouldn't need or have a gender. God comes in many different forms and has many different names and is worshipped in many different ways.

 

[anitram]

and I piss a lot of people off when I tell them that from my personal POV, Jesus and Mohammed and Y'shua and Allah and Odin and Kali-Durga and Krishna and Qwan Yin and Papa Legba and earth, fire, water, wind, sky, spirit, sun moon and stars..... are all just facets that come to people in ways they can accept, all representing the same force, the same life-energy or 'divine spirit'.

I completely agree.

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

I'd always thought of God as a male, for some reason, and an elderly one at that. But I'm perfectly willing to accept the idea of God being genderless, or a female. And as I've said before, I don't personally tie God down to any specific religion-I'm in agreement with BonoVoxSupastar about God coming in many different forms, having many different names, and being worshipped in many different ways.

Also, off the topic somewhat for a second-when I saw the title of this thread, I thought it said "University of God". .

Anywho, on with our regularly scheduled discussion.

Angela

 

[FullonEdge]

It just doesn't make sense that God would be male. If God was any single gender it would be female, it seems to me. You know, the whole fertility/reproduction thing...cause that's really what ancient folks worshipped was fertility and they thought that reproduction was the ultimate miracle...the ancient folks would be able to relate more to that so you'd think that the Supreme Being in ancient times would most likely have been a Goddess.

A guy I know says that the Bible has been revised so much that it's incredibly different than it was when it was written. Apparently the whole pillar of cloud/fire in Exodus was a testament to the duality of God. Fire represented male, Cloud represented female (the whole fertility thing coming back into play). Also he said that the Temple in Jerusalem was not just consecrated to YHWH (Yahweh) but also to SHKNH (Shekinah). Yahweh was the male God, Shekinah was the female God...the reason this has disappeared was because of Constantine and the Council of Nicaea in the 4th century AD. I guess they voted on whether Jesus was divine and things like that and also vastly rewrote the Bible, Judaism and Christianity themselves to fit in better with the pagan religions of the time, to make Christianity (which had all of a sudden become the official Roman Empire religion in 313 AD) more palatable to the people of the time who had been worshipping the sun and pagan gods at the time.

There's also some other stuff some guy said to me about the Holy Grail and Mary Magdalene and Jesus but that's a whole other can of worms.

I think this guy of yours might be pulling your tail a little bit

(sorry if that seems to be a personal attack)

 

[FullonEdge]

I'm actually quite in agreement with you, ThefirstBigW.

I think that the emerging idea of universalism where all religions worship the same God and merely take different paths to either "oneness" or heaven is a dangerous one. It's more like wishful thinking. The Bible says God is a "jealous God" who punishes sin and is in fact the only deity.

As for atheism, I think everyone is aware that a deity exists, some may deny the existence out of stubborness (seeing how religions can be corrupted and how evil human nature is) or out of ignorance (thinking they don't need a god) even though God promises hell to be real. Why would you want to risk unimagineable torture for eternity? Yes, I do think rationalism has gone a little too far.

Ok, I've gone a little far, and now i'll just wait to be personally attacked or whatever.

 

[wolfeden]

*eyeroll*
So basically all you really wanted oiut of this thread was to beat people with your Bible. Lovely. I'll be off now, thanks. Cheers.

 

[FullonEdge]

I'm sorry

 

[BVS]

The Bible says God is a "jealous God" who punishes sin and is in fact the only deity.

What Bible are you reading?

 

[FullonEdge]

NIV

If you think i've made a mistake, please tell me, but I think its in exodus or something

 

[Angela Harlem]

Why would someone willingly subscribe to that? I know you have rewritten it into your own words, but if the essence is the same, then chalk that up to another aspect I find highly offensive about religion.

 

[BVS]

NIV

If you think i've made a mistake, please tell me, but I think its in exodus or something

Yes please tell me where God is jealous...

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

Before I go on, FullonEdge, this isn't me flaming anything you've said, just so you know. .

I think that the emerging idea of universalism where all religions worship the same God and merely take different paths to either "oneness" or heaven is a dangerous one.

I don't understand how that can be a dangerous belief. I don't understand this whole idea of God only favoring one group of people. Why can't we all share God? Why does he have to belong to one group of people? Last I heard, he loved all his children, not just a select portion. It's the whole "God is on our side and not yours" belief that's caused a lot of the fighting between religious people in this world, and I don't mean that to be offensive, either.

Originally posted by FullonEdge
It's more like wishful thinking. The Bible says God is a "jealous God" who punishes sin and is in fact the only deity.

Well, I personally don't agree with the Bible on a lot of things, and that's one of them. I personally fail to understand why someone would want to worship a god who would like only a small group of people.

It's not wishful thinking, either. I seriously believe that God loves us all, no exceptions, and lets us use our free will to choose any path we deem right for us to get to him.

I mean, don't get me wrong, believe whatever you want regarding God. I just personally feel otherwise.

Originally posted by FullonEdge
As for atheism, I think everyone is aware that a deity exists,

No, not everyone.

Originally posted by FullonEdge
some may deny the existence out of stubborness (seeing how religions can be corrupted and how evil human nature is) or out of ignorance (thinking they don't need a god)

Actually, a lot of the atheists I know say they don't believe in God simply because they just haven't seen sufficient enough proof that he exists. Besides that, every single religion out there claims that they have the proof. And Christianity's got a bunch of denominations, meaning that even people within the same religion have disagreements regarding God and everything. So is it any wonder why some people are wary to be religious?

A few people may not believe in a god because of the reasons you've stated, sure. But those are not what the atheists I've talked to state as their reason for not believing in a god.

Originally posted by FullonEdge
even though God promises hell to be real.

Supposedly. Hell is supposedly real. A book claims that it exists. That doesn't automatically mean that that's true, though.

Besides that, I dunno, if people are going to be Christians, I would think they should become Christians because they truly feel that's the right religion for them, they truly get something out of it, and not just because they want to avoid a potential eternity of hellfire. That's what it seems some Christians out there are like to me-they only do things because they don't want to go to a place that may or may not exist, and not for any other reason. Not saying that you're like that or anything, but that's what it's seemed like with some other Christians I've met.

Originally posted by FullonEdge
Why would you want to risk unimagineable torture for eternity?

Well, hey, let's turn this the other way-why would you want to risk whatever punishment another religion has for eternity. Perhaps you should start believing in the god of another religion, just in case that's the one we all should've been following this entire time, right?

You have your reasons for why you don't follow any other religion, and those reasons are also the ones of people who choose to not follow Christianity as well.

Originally posted by FullonEdge
Yes, I do think rationalism has gone a little too far.

I beg to differ. I think it's very important to question religious dogma of any kind.

Angela

 

[melon]

Originally posted by FullonEdge I think that the emerging idea of universalism where all religions worship the same God and merely take different paths to either "oneness" or heaven is a dangerous one. It's more like wishful thinking. The Bible says God is a "jealous God" who punishes sin and is in fact the only deity.

I am not going to personally attack you. The fact of the matter, most likely, is that one cannot justify "universalism" using the Bible. The Bible is, for all intensive purposes, a very "jealous" book, written by a highly xenophobic culture. But not everyone bases their faith experience from the Bible.

As for atheism, I think everyone is aware that a deity exists, some may deny the existence out of stubborness (seeing how religions can be corrupted and how evil human nature is) or out of ignorance (thinking they don't need a god) even though God promises hell to be real. Why would you want to risk unimagineable torture for eternity? Yes, I do think rationalism has gone a little too far.

I am not an atheist, but I do base my Christian beliefs on rational footing. This runs inherent to my upbringing and religious education, so it was not as if my "rationale" was due to being rebellious. But what I do know, and is scientifically observed, is that one's religiosity is often determined by the level of the neurotransmitter, dopamine, in the brain. Higher levels tend to equate to higher levels of religiosity, and, subsequently, low levels of dopamine (often linked to high levels of serotonin) make people feel far less spiritual. In fact, that's one of complaints that people on SSRIs (Prozac, Paxil, etc.) make: they feel as if they lose their faith. But simultaneously, extremely high levels of dopamine creates schizophrenia, and it is theorized that many of the highly religious "visionaries" in history are likely that: schizophrenic.

But I digress...my point is not to say that the religious are schizophrenic (and most clearly aren't), but that I am not about to judge an atheist, because there are many matters that come into play, whether it be natural brain chemistry or disillusionment with organized religion. Frankly, such bombastic judgmentalism is precisely what drove many people away from religion in the first place! If anything, I avoid the "hellfire and brimstone" preaching and live by example. And, sure, religion certainly does come up in conversations, and when they do, I discuss my POV in a non-judgmental manner. Being "nice" does get you farther than you think; after all, that was part of Jesus' success.

Take care...

Melon

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

Frankly, such bombastic judgmentalism is precisely what drove many people away from religion in the first place! If anything, I avoid the "hellfire and brimstone" preaching and live by example. And, sure, religion certainly does come up in conversations, and when they do, I discuss my POV in a non-judgmental manner. Being "nice" does get you farther than you think; after all, that was part of Jesus' success.

.

Angela

 

[FullonEdge]

Whoa! I never expected such an emotional response!

No, really, I am sorry if I got carried away and if I seem like a fire and brimstone enthusiast, which I'm not. I personally take comfort in Jesus' saving grace. Ok, I hope I just didn't open a whole other can of worms with that one!

If I'm not mistaken, dopamine is the neurotransmitter that causes a feeling of happiness, so isn't it possible that some religious people are just very happy? The part about schizophrenia is interesting.

When I have some time I'll try to find that part about a "jealous God."

Um, need I say that I disagree with a bunch of the points made so far? Nevertheless, I really do appreciate your comments because they are interesting. Maybe I'll go further into detail later.

 

[Angela Harlem]

So if you dont follow Christianity you're going to hell, and if you do, you're schizophrenic.

Choices, choices....

 

[Salome]

to quote the mighty AC/DC: "Hell Ain't A Bad Place To Be"

 

[BVS]

So if you dont follow Christianity you're going to hell, and if you do, you're schizophrenic.

Choices, choices....

 

[melon]

If I'm not mistaken, dopamine is the neurotransmitter that causes a feeling of happiness, so isn't it possible that some religious people are just very happy? The part about schizophrenia is interesting.

It does several things, but, mostly, it is one's emotional center--not to mention that dopamine is necessary for sexual function (hence, why SSRI users complain of sexual dysfunction).

And you're correct. Most religious folk are not schizophrenic, and I didn't wish to imply that. There are some out there, though, and they tend to manifest themselves as "mystics" or "seers," or, in the case of Anne Catherine Emmerich, write a blood-filled, anti-Semitic tale of Jesus' death, and get a movie ("The Passion of Christ") made out of it 200 years later. I guess I wanted to point that out as an extreme to point out how important dopamine is to faith, interestingly enough, and point out a theory as to why *some* may be atheist. I know of at least one person who doesn't believe in God solely because he doesn't feel Hs existence and hence why my hypothesis may hold some water.

Melon

 

[Pearl]

Do you mean faith all depends on how happy you are, and how chemically balanced you are? What about people who suffer from depression but still feel God's existence? I've known people who were depressed and they turned to God, and their lives and emotions improved.

 

[melon]

Do you mean faith all depends on how happy you are, and how chemically balanced you are? What about people who suffer from depression but still feel God's existence? I've known people who were depressed and they turned to God, and their lives and emotions improved.

Well, there are different causes of depression and one's chemical balance doesn't necessarily mean that they are depressed. It's just that only those whose chemical balance lends itself to depression does something about it. It wasn't meant to be a generalization about all depressed people or all instances of depression; just one very specific example and subsequent hypothesis.

Melon

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

Um, need I say that I disagree with a bunch of the points made so far?

LOL, I had a feeling you would. But it's cool. .

Originally posted by FullonEdge
Nevertheless, I really do appreciate your comments because they are interesting. Maybe I'll go further into detail later.

Good. I look forward to hearing your thoughts on my thoughts. .

Angela