United States of Entropy

[INDY500]

Originally Posted by Pearl

INDY, I am not sure if I should respond to your most recent post, but this...

Holy crap. Talk about bigotry and severe superiority complex.

Whoa, I hit a nerve didn't I? Must have said one of your buzzwords.

Where is the bigotry in contrasting E German culture with W German culture? Where is the bigotry in noting that American Hispanics don't try to become Mexican citizens but Mexican Hispanics will risk their life to become an American? Forget about economics are you telling me there is no difference between the culture of Israel and its neighbors regarding personal freedom, religious tolerance, the justice system, the arts, the value of life or intellectual curiosity?

This isn't about race its about culture. Blacks can have good values, Mongolians can have good values. Whites can have terrible values and many have and do. It's about culture and behavior. Is culture determined by values or is culture determined by economic conditions and politics.

Question. Generally speaking, are American values superior to most other cultures? If no, is that because you believe all cultures are relatively equal? If yes, what is wrong with believing that and sharing those values with others or passing them on to future generations.

BTW, Mexicans are primarily Catholic - is that an inferior religion in your eyes?

No. This isn't about theology per say either it's about values. Atheists can have good values. Muslims can have good values. Christians can have terrible values but America is great because of the values it has stood for and most Americans have tried to live by all these years. They are not exclusive but neither are they permanent. And they have largely been influenced by Judeo-Christian values and you'd have to be a college professor or ignorant of history think otherwise. In God We Trust is the national motto for a reason.

And what about the Persian Gulf states? They have high GDPs and successful economies, and - shock! - they're Muslim countries.

Quick poll, does anybody agree with this statement?

I don't in any manner. From Northern Africa to the Persian Gulf the Arab States are a economic mess and a societal backwaters. High GDPs? Who? Successful economies? Which of these monarchs, despots, kleptocrats or theocracies are you deeming a "successful economy"?

Yes, and they are Muslims. I have no problem with Islam or its followers, I do have a problem with the values inherent in theocracies and Sharia Law as interpreted by Islamists. Do you see those values as equal to American values? Compatible with Western democracy, individual liberty or equality before the law?

India's economy is developing quickly and they're mostly Hindu. And let's not forget Japan.

Capitalism

I'm just disgusted, and I feel really sorry for you having such narrow, heartless views.

I'm not worried about "will it hurt anyone's feelings?", I am only worried about "Is it true?"

Is it true that some values are better than others?

Is it true Western values historically been derived to a large part from the Bible?

Is it true that values determine culture and economic prosperity or is it the other way around?

Is it true America is prosperous because of our values or is it because of slavery, killing off the Indian tribes, imperialism, greed and our exploitation of 3rd world countries?

Is it true disco still sucks? (Just seeing if anyone made it to the end)

[INDY500]

Originally Posted by digitize

Thanks for your thoughtful response, and welcome back to FYM.

Thank you, it will be a few days but I'll respond to you.

You challenge ideas and think rather than emote. Pretty rare for the internet.

[Jive Turkey]

Originally Posted by INDY500

And they have largely been influenced by Judeo-Christian values and you'd have to be a college professor or ignorant of history think otherwise. In God We Trust is the national motto for a reason.

Your mistrust of educational institutions betrays your preference for horseshit over facts. When unbiased facts don't give you the answers you wish were true, you decide it must be the schools problem and not yours. It's a little pathetic, if I'm being completely honest

And what's the reason for your national motto? Please share with us. Include the religious leanings of your founding fathers

[Jive Turkey]

Originally Posted by INDY500

I am only worried about "Is it true?"

hahahahahahahahahaha.

No you don't. You only worry about "how can I twist this to fit my world view?"

[Jive Turkey]

Originally Posted by INDY500

Is it true Western values historically been derived to a large part from the Bible?

no. Unless you're only picking and choosing certain values that fit with your bible's values. If the values in the bible were the basis for American society, it would be a shithole indeed.

What are Judeo-Christian values exactly? Can you list some for us? I wonder which ones you'll leave out.
And why combine Jewish and Christian values? Are they the same thing? They're far from the same holy books. Do you know when that phrase came into existence? You might as well call them Pagan-Christian values. It would make a lot more sense, but giving credit to a non-Abrahamic culture wouldn't fit your world view and make your team feel less important and icky

Originally Posted by INDY500

Is it true that some values are better than others?

Yes. But do you really think your xenophobic, homophobic, anti-intellectual values are good? I think they're shit. And you keep talking about "American Values". What makes you think you're representative of American values?

[Jive Turkey]

.

[Pearl]

INDY, when you mentioned those countries initially, it sounded prejudiced to me. Even other posters are voicing that sentiment. You also seem to be backtracking on what you said and acting like I read something wrong or read a "buzzword".

Cute.

The Persian Gulf countries have very good economies and even some of the highest GDP per capita in the world. Qatar ranks first, Kuwait is at 16th and the United Arab Emirates rank 13th. Even Brunei in Southeast Asia, which primarily Muslim, ranks 11th.

Don't believe me? https://www.cia.gov/library/publicat...tryName=United Arab Emirates&countryCode=ae&regionCode=mde&rank=13#ae

Also, many Europeans are relocating to Dubai and Qatar because of the opportunities there. Yes, those places have human rights abuses, their economies are based on oil, and there's not a lot of freedom and their governments are theocratic, but it is just inaccurate to say:

...to the Persian Gulf the Arab States are a economic mess

Furthermore...

Compatible with Western democracy, individual liberty or equality before the law?

I may be changing the subject, but I can't ignore this. You value the above so much, yet you don't believe in same-sex marriage, which is part on individual liberty and equality before the law. So, you are completely - and openly - contradicting yourself.

[BEAL]

Yes. In God We Trust....only took nearly 200 years for America to realize what the Founders wanted right? (And only took nearly half century after to put it on our coins first).

Take the treaty of tripoli "the gov of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion" and signed by George Washington

Please stop trying to rewrite history. A majority of the founders appeared to be deists and not Christian. And had atheism been a term then, it's fair to say a few would have adapted it.

The original constitution had one reference to religion and it was "no religious test shall be required".

All this under god stuff was adapted by congress many, many years later (1954) and its primary reason was to combat the fear of communism

[U2DMfan]

Originally Posted by Indy

Question. Generally speaking, are American values superior to most other cultures? If no, is that because you believe all cultures are relatively equal?

No and no. Not all cultures are equal. And not all of them worship money.

Originally Posted by INDY500

Capitalism

I am a capitalist too. Truly. But there are different types of capitalism.
Generally speaking here...I don't think those countries are unabashed soulless consumers and capitalists (like the U.S. has become) just yet. I don't know but perhaps they are more empathetic cultures. I am unsure. I do know they still care about the elderly and prioritize family and care about things such as integrity and morality and helping their fellow man...while the US is largely becoming more and more a superficial materialistic society. I am not religious but it is no secret that there is a large movement away from those kinds of values. I am talking more about the Golden Rule, generically, than any specific Christian value (although that is one). Maybe that's a discussion unto itself.

So, I think you are wrong in your evaluations of our current "values".
You keep talking about these Biblical Western values as if they still apply.
We would do better to emulate some of those older values, as long as they promote true equality and a separation of church and state. It's just too hard to keep the extremists in line.

Again, I am not religious and haven't been in MOONS but I believe in many of those values still. And I do not see them reflected in much of our society.

Is it true America is prosperous...

Not any longer. Wasn't that the point of this entire thread? "America" is the vast majority of us. We aren't that prosperous. "America" as the military industrial complex? Or the Banking/Corporate leviathan? We're doing great!

Hope I didn't jump into a conversation and fail to grasp the context.
It is an interesting discussion to have.

[Kieran McConville]

Jesus Jumping Jehosapha there is some serious horseshit going on in this thread. The teachings of Christianity are 100% opposed to a phenomenon like capitalism in its modern form. American civilisation is a hybrid with a little bit of protestant Christianity, a little bit of Enlightenment self-improvement, a little bit of plain old gold-digging, a dash of romance... it's no one single thing.

FUCK!

[Irvine511]

so that INDY doesn't feel alone, there's lots of people out there who are worried about our collective descent into chaos due to the Obama presidency, and the overrunning of traditional American society by hordes who's values aren't as good as ours:

Stand and Fight
Posted By Wayne LaPierre On 4:32 PM 02/13/2013

By Wayne LaPierre

Before I tell you how the NRA and our members are going to Stand And Fight politically and in the courts, let’s acknowledge that all over this country, tens of millions of Americans are already preparing to Stand And Fight to protect their families and homes.

These good Americans are prudently getting ready to protect themselves.

It has always been sensible for good citizens to own and carry firearms for lawful protection against violent criminals who prey on decent people.

During the second Obama term, however, additional threats are growing. Latin American drug gangs have invaded every city of significant size in the United States. Phoenix is already one of the kidnapping capitals of the world, and though the states on the U.S./Mexico border may be the first places in the nation to suffer from cartel violence, by no means are they the last.

The president flagrantly defies the 2006 federal law ordering the construction of a secure border fence along the entire Mexican border. So the border today remains porous not only to people seeking jobs in the U.S., but to criminals whose jobs are murder, rape, robbery and kidnapping. Ominously, the border also remains open to agents of al Qaeda and other terrorist organizations. Numerous intelligence sources have confirmed that foreign terrorists have identified the southern U.S. border as their path of entry into the country.

When the next terrorist attack comes, the Obama administration won’t accept responsibility. Instead, it will do what it does every time: blame a scapegoat and count on Obama’s “mainstream” media enablers to go along.

A heinous act of mass murder—either by terrorists or by some psychotic who should have been locked up long ago—will be the pretext to unleash a tsunami of Gun Control.

No wonder Americans are buying guns in record numbers right now, while they still can and before their choice about which firearm is right for their family is taken away forever.

After Hurricane Sandy, we saw the hellish world that the gun prohibitionists see as their utopia. Looters ran wild in south Brooklyn. There was no food, water or electricity. And if you wanted to walk several miles to get supplies, you better get back before dark, or you might not get home at all.

Anti-gun New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg had already done everything he could to prevent law-abiding New Yorkers from owning guns, and he has made sure that no ordinary citizen will ever be allowed to carry a gun. He even refused to allow the National Guard into the city to restore civil order because Guardsmen carry guns!

Meanwhile, President Obama is leading this country to financial ruin, borrowing over a trillion dollars a year for phony “stimulus” spending and other payoffs for his political cronies. Nobody knows if or when the fiscal collapse will come, but if the country is broke, there likely won’t be enough money to pay for police protection. And the American people know it.

Hurricanes. Tornadoes. Riots. Terrorists. Gangs. Lone criminals. These are perils we are sure to face—not just maybe. It’s not paranoia to buy a gun. It’s survival. It’s responsible behavior, and it’s time we encourage law-abiding Americans to do just that.

Since the election, millions of Americans have been lining up in front of gun stores, Cabela’s and Bass Pro Shops exercising their freedom while they still have it. They are demonstrating they have a mass determination to buy, own and use firearms. Millions of Americans are using market forces like never before to demonstrate their ardent support for our firearm freedoms. That’s one of the very best ways we can Stand And Fight.

Inevitably, the anti-gun media and the gun-ban lobbies are demonizing the purchase of firearms. They call us “extremists” because we wonder whether we will be able to buy a semi-auto in three years or, even in some states, later this year. That’s despite the fact that President Obama long ago made clear that he wants to ban them all!

The media try to make rank-and-file Americans feel guilty about buying a gun. The enemies of freedom demonize gun buyers and portray us as social lepers. But we know the truth. We know that responsible gun ownership exemplifies what is good and right about America.

Responsible Americans realize that the world as we know it has changed. We, the American people, clearly see the daunting forces we will undoubtedly face: terrorists, crime, drug gangs, the possibility of Euro-style debt riots, civil unrest or natural disaster.

Gun owners are not buying firearms because they anticipate a confrontation with the government. Rather, we anticipate confrontations where the government isn’t there—or simply doesn’t show up in time.

To preserve the inalienable, individual human right to keep and bear arms—to withstand the siege that is coming—the NRA is building a four-year communications and resistance movement. The enemies of the Second Amendment will be met with unprecedented defiance, commitment and determination. We will Stand And Fight.

First, we are going to devise legal capability like never before. I fervently hope that President Obama does not get to appoint another anti-gun Supreme Court justice like Sonia Sotomayor or Elena Kagan. But he probably will, and we must meet that challenge. His chances of appointing a replacement for one of the five pro-rights justices in the 5-4 Heller and McDonald majorities are high. And there’s no doubt he is going to appoint a huge number of new judges to lifetime positions in the lower federal courts.

That means the federal courts are going to get worse and worse. So some cases, on which we might have improved our chances of victory by waiting a while, are going to have to be brought now.

Besides bringing affirmative pro-rights cases, we will also have to litigate against the flood of new anti-gun federal regulations that are coming, and against anti-gun laws that are going to be enacted in some of the states.

Second, we must strengthen the NRA like never before. We are, and always have been, a genuine grassroots organization. And never has your membership been more important. Never has the nra been more in need of your support.

The national media, with its slanted and inaccurate “news” coverage of the gun issue, has given the gun-ban groups the equivalent of hundreds of millions of dollars of free advertising.

Now, the threat is even greater. Michael Bloomberg and George Soros are each, individually, far wealthier than the entire National Rifle Association. When the NRA spends money on political advertising, we have to raise those funds from you—$20, $50, $250, or $1,000 at a time. In the last election, Bloomberg alone spent $16 million and that doesn’t even count the indirect spending by groups funded by Soros and his fellow billionaires.

The hard truth is that due to Bloomberg, Soros, and the rest of their ilk, the dangers require that we increase our presence all across the country—in Congress, the state capitols, and in your city and towns.

As we Stand And Fight, the third, and most important, part of our action plan demands that we organize like never before. That’s the most important part of all.

Every gun owner should be an active member of the NRA. Every gun owner should be sure that every member of his or her family is an active member.

For most of the last hundred years, a strong NRA has been the indispensable shield against the destruction of our nation’s Second Amendment rights. Now, an even stronger nra is the only chance gun owners have to withstand the coming siege.

This begins with remembering to keep your own membership active, or reactivate it if it has lapsed. It means reminding yourself, “I have a son and daughter who aren’t members and should be.” It means reaching out to your hunting and shooting friends and personally telling them why it’s so important that they join the NRA now, during this time of peril.

The NRA is launching a nationwide, full-court initiative to urge every gun owner, and every non-gun-owning lover of freedom, to join the NRA and fight this battle. I will personally be traveling all over America enlisting new members.

We must reach out to the tens of millions of gun owners who are not yet NRA members—to the gun owners who care about their own rights but who have been duped by Obama and the national media into believing that the Obama and Bloomberg gun controls will only affect other people. They are naively sitting on the sidelines, imagining themselves immune from the coming siege.

Yet no matter how much I travel, I can’t be everywhere. NRA members, though, can be everywhere. We already are. The 4 million of us belong to every community in the United States. We are the largest civil rights organization in the world, and we have been part of the fabric of America ever since 1871. So it is you, proud NRA members, who are the key to enlisting new members in the ranks of our army of freedom.

NRA grassroots has always been our Association’s greatest strength. To compete with Bloomberg and his gang, it must be much stronger still. Historically, we have always been able to rely on volunteers, and I’m going to ask you and need you to answer the call to help throughout the next four years.

Every year, shooting is becoming more and more popular, with more people engaging in the shooting sports for fun. More people are buying guns and trying new disciplines, such as 3-gun competitions, sporting clays, practical shooting and so on.

As we Stand And Fight, let’s continue to make the shooting sports one of the fastest-growing recreational activities in America. By doing so, and by telling others about it, we’ll popularize and make gun owning and shooting more mainstream than ever before. That will be even more effective if we remember to invite new people to participate and provide them with the responsible mentorship and guidance that the NRA has exemplified for over 140 years.

We can’t win the political war if we lose the cultural war. One of the great protectors of the Second Amendment is the popular, active, responsible use of firearms for shooting and hunting.

We don’t want America to become like England, where some of that nation’s outstanding rifle competitors keep their hobby a dark secret from their neighbors for fear of social disapproval. We’re not going to let the anti-gunners push us into that zone. As I remind people every day, we are the majority.

We have so much to be proud of as gun owners, shooters and freedom lovers. That pride, especially when it’s not hidden in the closet, is itself a form of protection for the Second Amendment.

We will not surrender. We will not appease. We will buy more guns than ever. We will use them for sport and lawful self-defense more than ever. We will grow the NRA more than ever. And we will be prouder than ever to be freedom-loving NRA patriots. And with your help, we will ensure that the Second Amendment remains America’s First Freedom.

We will Stand And Fight.

The Daily Caller � Stand and Fight � Print

[BEAL]

I really want to own a gun and an american flag now

[Diemen]

That fear mongering screed is everything that is wrong with American political discourse.

[BEAL]

Yep. Better get your guns now before mexicans and muslims come across our border.

[LemonMelon]

Originally Posted by Kieran McConville

Jesus Jumping Jehosapha there is some serious horseshit going on in this thread. The teachings of Christianity are 100% opposed to a phenomenon like capitalism in its modern form. American civilisation is a hybrid with a little bit of protestant Christianity, a little bit of Enlightenment self-improvement, a little bit of plain old gold-digging, a dash of romance... it's no one single thing.

FUCK!

Co-signed

[U2DMfan]

There's a fuckload more than a "little bit of gold-digging" going on.

[maycocksean]

Originally Posted by Diemen

That fear mongering screed is everything that is wrong with American political discourse.

Exactly.

And intelligent people are buying this nonsense.

It's not just that the right-wing media and associated mouthpieces are biased--it's that they are just blatantly untruthful.

[Moonlit_Angel]

Originally Posted by maycocksean

It's not just that the right-wing media and associated mouthpieces are biased--it's that they are just blatantly untruthful.

Exactly.

And I'm not sure which option would be worse: them being untruthful because they're genuinely ignorant, or them knowing full well what they're saying is untrue, but choosing to say it anyway.

[LJT]

I do not understand how the success of an economy or nation or culture is tied to it's morals. And I know you have mentioned these yourself Indy: Was slavery not part of the US' early success? How about what was done to the native Americans? Was the war with Mexico that gained the US California etc an example of being a morally superior economy and nation or just a stronger one? The Japanese American Internments?

Were the British successful because they were superior morally as a culture at the time of Empire?

At what point do any of these things make a culture morally superior?

It really is a dumb conclusion to draw.

Plenty of land with natural resources and cheap labour, with a well trained army is often pretty much all it takes to come out on top.

You might as well say the poor deserve to be poor because they are immoral, sinful, while the rich are God's shining beacon unto the world. Can success not be attained through wrongful means?

[Irvine511]

Originally Posted by LJT

You might as well say the poor deserve to be poor because they are immoral, sinful, while the rich are God's shining beacon unto the world. Can success not be attained through wrongful means?

All success is by definition good. We have makers, and then we have takers.

This is what the Republicans have been saying since 1981.

Makes it much easier to slash entitlements.