United States of Entropy

[maycocksean]

Guys, remember when the Dems shut down the government in 2005 after adding defunding of the Iraq War to the usual extension of spending. See guys, both parties do it.

Oh wait a minute, that never happened...

[Popmartijn]

Originally Posted by digitize

Just to play devil's advocate here: how is President Obama not holding the economy hostage by insisting that he will sign no budget without funding for the potentially economically deleterious Affordable Care Act?

Also, this is not regarding the statements of the president, but regarding the proposal by the senate, but it looks like the senate resolution was already quite a compromise (as in, with a funding quite a bit lower than the original budget).


(from Chart of the Day - Taegan Goddard's Wonk Wire )

[PhilsFan]

Originally Posted by AEON

That doesn't make any sense - a political party is not a "generation"

No, I said that the GOP perfectly encapsulates everything that's wrong with that generation. There's a difference.

I think the last 15 or so years have made it abundantly clear that our markets need at least some regulation, yet the GOP will somehow blame government interference as the reason things are bad, despite government interference in the economy only dwindling over that time period.

[AEON]

Originally Posted by PhilsFan

No, I said that the GOP perfectly encapsulates everything that's wrong with that generation. There's a difference.

I think the last 15 or so years have made it abundantly clear that our markets need at least some regulation, yet the GOP will somehow blame government interference as the reason things are bad, despite government interference in the economy only dwindling over that time period.

Ok, I see what you're saying. Thanks for clarifying.

[Irvine511]

Originally Posted by AEON

I don't see how anyone can seriously think that one political party, made up of your fellow citizens, is actually to blame for all the ills of a nation. It seems so narrow-minded and...boring.

i'm sorry you feel that way.

i've never said "all" the ills of a nation lie at the feet of the GOP. but there's not much question that the mess we're in today is the fault of the Bush administration, the GOP controlled congress, and the Democrats who aided and abetted them as they started multiple wars on credit cards and handed out unfounded tax cuts to the wealthiest among us.

but there's really not much of a question that the GOP no longer functions as an actual political party, and they're willing to hold a nation hostage to appease a minority within a minority. they are willing to bring suffering on the American people simply because they don't want to follow the law.

it's preposterous, and absurd, and as i look at my furloughed friends, the closed museums and zoos, the tourists scratching their heads wondering what's so awful about giving poor people access to health care like every other country in the developed world, and the children who can't go to Head Start while their hard working, low-income parents scramble to find child care so they won't be fired, i get angrier and angrier.

this all exists for the benefit of Ted Cruz, and it demonstrates how a group of mouth breathing idiot radicals -- the "tea party" -- have been taught to so loath people different from them that they'd hurt their neighbors for the political betterment of this vainglorious asshole.

to blame the entirety of Congress or think that the blame lies on both parties equally is to not understand the goals and mission of this radical wing of the Republican Party.

what the wealthy backers of the "tea party" believe is that our government is a hindrance to their goals of maximizing their own profits. their only motivation is to get government out of the way of their own businesses so that they can make more money. this is a strategic long-term campaign to delegitimize any organization, person, or structure that stands in that path.

they believe that government is bad and does not provide for individuals or businesses anything that the private sector could. they do not believe that sometimes individuals fail and should have a safety net or that when we come together collectively we can do things that we'd never be able to do on our own.

so they have set out to change perceptions in the general public and better align the values of America with their own. they work very hard and spend lots of money to make us even more competitive with each other and even more resentful of anyone that we thought might be getting something we were not getting -- and they use coded language ("food stamps=blacks" "amnesty=Mexicans" "anti-family=gays") as a weapon to stir up real fears about modernity. they then assign blame for that to the very structures that actually helped to build a middle class and stabilized our economy for the past 60 years.

they started with the poor. the perception of "welfare queens" and free-loaders is not supported anywhere by data, only anecdote and racist prejudice. the data does not support that food stamps are used incorrectly.

then they went after unions. weekends, overtime, protections against discrimination, medical care, and sick time (yet, no legally paid maternity leave!). this is because of unions. unions are far from perfect, but unions created the middle class. the middle class is, to people like the Koch Brothers and Sheldon Adelson, a hinderance to more capital flowing upwards, so crush the unions.

they demonize public workers too. let's not praise the State Department or Transportation Department experts who have worked tirelessly for years to advance the goals of the US, let's lump them in with the one cranky person at the DMV, who really has a shit job when you think about it, and say that all government employees are lazy, or worthless, or should be furloughed.

the goal is to obliterate the system itself, and the best way to do that is to get the American public to say "Congress is evil and must go." and use the corporate-owned media, including "journalists" who provide the easy villain that every-day Americans are looking for to explain the mess their lives have sometimes become, or why it isn't as good as they thought it was going to be. tell people that a paradise of huge salaries lies after they have destroyed the institutions that created the middle and working classes themselves.

our institutions are not perfect. they need constant attention, refinement, and the ability to adapt to a rapidly changing world. however, the must not be destroyed or denigrated to a point where they can no longer function for those that need them.

there is not blame to go around. it belongs squarely in one place.

McCain and Boehner and McConnell would agree with me.

[AEON]

Originally Posted by maycocksean

See guys, both parties do it.

You are correct, sir.

[Pearl]

What's really wrong about this whole shutdown is that the American people, and the tourists suffer in many ways - but Congress continues to get their paychecks. No wonder why Congress doesn't mind shutting down the government, no matter which party

[AEON]

Originally Posted by Pearl

but Congress continues to get their paychecks.

Their paychecks pale in comparison to the money they make at speaking engagements and books while in office. However, the real money starts flowing once they leave office and their "friends" pay what was promised for supported legislation that made them all rich (or richer).

[Pearl]

Originally Posted by AEON

Their paychecks pale in comparison to the money they make at speaking engagements and books while in office. However, the real money starts flowing once they leave office and their "friends" pay what was promised for supported legislation that made them all rich (or richer).

But they get paid even though thousands of Americans can't because Congress shut down the government. Where's the fairness in that?

We just got our pay stubs at work. Our taxes were taken out as usual, of course. But the joke of the day is how we can take a stand against part of our paycheck going to something that isn't really functioning now.

[U2NativeSon]

I would likely vote if I thought it would make a difference or there was someone I believed could work to make things better. My vote does not make those that are elected not do their jobs. Individuals that did vote for representives expect those elected to do the peoples work.

I think the ACA is a good thing, not properly thought out, but it is what many Americans need. There is a difference though of having Health Insurance and getting the actual care needed. I feel that the increasing or unknown cost is a real problem.

Many of these problems could simply be solved with a real budget, not continuing resolutions. A proper budget with the funds to cover the ACA would mean that both sides would have to agree on cuts elsewhere. We can't continue to borrow and spend what we don't have.

This affects my family as well because my wife is federal, deemed essential and her salary is funded by ACA. The funding needs to be addressed, a budget put in place, cuts on spending put forth and limit our borrowing. Both parties representing the people have valid concerns on each side. Negotiation is necessary now and should be done by the leader or our country.

A lot of the problem still goes back to 9/11, Bush did what he thought he had to. War was not the answer, but Americans at the time felt it was. The attack on America worked. It crippled our economy, divided the nation and the people.

[Pearl]

Originally Posted by U2NativeSon

A lot of the problem still goes back to 9/11, Bush did what he thought he had to. War was not the answer, but Americans at the time felt it was. The attack on America worked. It crippled our economy, divided the nation and the people.

This. I said the same thing once before. The terrorists did their job.

[anitram]

From the archives of "you can't make this shit up":

GOP Congressman Makes Park Ranger Apologize for Shutdown

Video is worth watching.

In an astounding confrontation that took place yesterday at the World War II Memorial in DC, a Tea Party congressman from Texas appeared to blame the Park Service for denying veterans access to the facility — and then made a Park Ranger apologize for the shutdown. "How do you look at them and ... deny them access?" Rep. Randy Neugebauer asked the unidentified Ranger in an incredible exchange that was caught on camera by NBC Washington.

In fact, the Park Service has been invoking the First Amendment in order to allow vets into the memorial despite the shutdown making it illegal for the department to do so.

"It's difficult," the Ranger replied. "Well, it should be difficult," scorned the congressman. "It is difficult," the Ranger repeated. "I'm sorry, sir."

"The Park Service should be ashamed of themselves," said Neugebauer. "I'm not ashamed," the Ranger retorted.

"You should be," sneered Neugebauer.

The good news is that, despite the GOP's best efforts to divert blame to literally anybody else, most Americans know full well who's truly to blame.

A just-released CBS News poll found that 44% fault the Republicans for the shutdown, while 35% fault Obama and the Dems.

Meanwhile, a whopping 72% disapprove of holding the entire budget hostage over Obamacare, including nearly 50% of all Republicans surveyed.

The day before he was taped harassing a Park Ranger for doing her job, Neugebauer went on The Chad Hasty Show to state that he will keep the government shut down for "as long as it takes" to ensure that Obamacare is not funded, claiming it was the will of the American people.

NO, this simply is not an issue on "both sides".

[AEON]

Originally Posted by Pearl

But they get paid even though thousands of Americans can't because Congress shut down the government. Where's the fairness in that?
.

I'm not saying it's fair - I'm saying it wouldn't matter to them if they lost their paychecks.

[AEON]

Originally Posted by anitram

NO, this simply is not an issue on "both sides".

Of course it is. Polls only show how effective news/marketing/PR is performing.

Politicians are expected to play politics just like hockey players are expected to play hockey.

Hey - I'm all for another way of running the nation (maybe run it with software), but until then - I expect nothing more/less from these clowns - on all "sides."

[anitram]

No, it really isn't. I'm so tired of the false equivalence.

Please find me 50 House members on the Democratic side that are akin to the Tea Party, both in terms of loudness, vulgarity, obstructionism and IMPACT. Really, go ahead.

[AEON]

Originally Posted by anitram

No, it really isn't. I'm so tired of the false equivalence.

Is "false equivalence" the term of the month or something?

In the end, you seem entrenched in your thought patterns so what's the use in going back and forth with specific examples that you will refute and then we go another round of examples that I will refute and so on so on...

If you think the Democrats are some noble angels that are untainted by the mire of politics - then I would tend to disagree with you.

None of these people care about you (or any of us peasants). They care about their careers, their immediate circle of friends and family (building up their wealth), and perhaps their "legacy" - you are only a means to achieving their goals. Nothing more.

[AEON]

Also - did you not see the chart I posted? ^

[AEON]

Austin Powers and the art of flip-flopping

Flip-Flop 101

[PhilsFan]

Originally Posted by AEON

Is "false equivalence" the term of the month or something?

In the end, you seem entrenched in your thought patterns so what's the use in going back and forth with specific examples that you will refute and then we go another round of examples that I will refute and so on so on...

If you think the Democrats are some noble angels that are untainted by the mire of politics - then I would tend to disagree with you.

None of these people care about you (or any of us peasants). They care about their careers, their immediate circle of friends and family (building up their wealth), and perhaps their "legacy" - you are only a means to achieving their goals. Nothing more.

What are you talking about? Who called them untainted and angelic? This isn't just dodging the question, this is a strawman.

Maybe you keep hearing about false equivalences because you keep employing them.

[anitram]

Originally Posted by AEON

If you think the Democrats are some noble angels that are untainted by the mire of politics - then I would tend to disagree with you.

I think the Democrats are pathetic. I'm absolutely serious. Nowhere else in the world (yes I know the rest of us don't matter as we're not as free as ya'all) would they be considered a liberal party. I have very little idea of what they stand for and their leadership has been poor on a number of fronts over the last decade or so.

But the Tea Party behaviour is unprecedented and it is plain dishonest to suggest that there is the same sort of faction on the other side. It is NOT TRUE. Period, end of story.

Your chart isn't helpful at all because there is no context there. Yes, we can establish that previous shutdowns happened and that they were driven by both Parties. But without providing context for each particular situation it is precisely false equivalence.

That's like looking at WW2 and stating that all parties involved had started warfare in the past. So?