United States of Entropy

[Irvine511]

Originally Posted by nathan1977

#racecard

just wait to see how they act when the next president has a vagina. #evenworse

[nathan1977]

Originally Posted by Irvine511

just wait to see how they act when the next president has a vagina. #evenworse

I'm curious to see what you think of Digitize's post. It seemed to be a clear and coherent exploration of the Right's position. I certainly hope dialogue across different ideological lines is still possible.

[Irvine511]

Originally Posted by nathan1977

I'm curious to see what you think of Digitize's post. It seemed to be a clear and coherent exploration of the Right's position. I certainly hope dialogue across different ideological lines is still possible.

i don't think Obama's race can ever be discounted in the sheer level of disdain and nihilism that's come across from the GOP since 2008. they have spent the past 5 years trying to reverse the results of two elections (where they got clobbered). race is a part of the American story, and it's always a factor. to pretend that racial resentment isn't a part of the Obama story, and to pretend that even something like "food stamps" isn't loaded, coded language, is simply wrong. and i think people aren't as willing to admit their subtle prejudices, nor do they quite realize how affected we all are by such things -- we may not even be aware of the reactions we have.

but of course that isn't the whole story. of course digitze's post was coherent and helpful, and i readily admit that my post wasn't helpful, it was intended as a bit of off-the-cuff snark, a little bit funny, and definitely true to an extent.

[Pearl]

Originally Posted by Irvine511

i don't think Obama's race can ever be discounted in the sheer level of disdain and nihilism that's come across from the GOP since 2008. they have spent the past 5 years trying to reverse the results of two elections (where they got clobbered). race is a part of the American story, and it's always a factor. to pretend that racial resentment isn't a part of the Obama story, and to pretend that even something like "food stamps" isn't loaded, coded language, is simply wrong. and i think people aren't as willing to admit their subtle prejudices, nor do they quite realize how affected we all are by such things -- we may not even be aware of the reactions we have.

but of course that isn't the whole story. of course digitze's post was coherent and helpful, and i readily admit that my post wasn't helpful, it was intended as a bit of off-the-cuff snark, a little bit funny, and definitely true to an extent.

I agree that race plays a factor in the high levels of hate Republicans have for Obama. I remember there was a lot of disdain for Bill Clinton, but an obsessive hate for Hillary Clinton back in the 90s. So I do agree that race and gender are playing a role in many of a Republicans' attitude these days. To sum it up, having a black man in the White House can reveal a whole different side of someone.

ETA: But let's not forget that even Laura Bush got some verbal attacks from liberals, even though there seems very little to hate her about. Such is life in a divided country

[PhilsFan]

Originally Posted by digitize

There's more to it than that. INDY can correct me, but I think that the average Republican believes that government investment in solar makes the economy worse while not being worth that tradeoff; that gun control's effects in limiting mass shootings are limited enough to not worth the sacrificing of individual liberty, or that gun control makes crime worse; that stimulus actually hurts job-creation (an opinion shared by most economists, actually); and that state-sponsored health care is bad for health care/the economy enough to not be worth any benefits that it may bring. Those tradeoffs are where policy differs, and it's important to understand them in developing policy positions. I'm not sure that ascribing a cause of cowardice for positions that are somewhat reasonably thought through (even though I certainly don't agree with all of them) is particularly productive.

To which I ask Republicans, "What's the solution?" And to which I usually hear something akin to "Get government off our backs!"

[digitize]

Originally Posted by PhilsFan

To which I ask Republicans, "What's the solution?" And to which I usually hear something akin to "Get government off our backs!"

The solution to the economic stuff, from what I understand, is shrinking the government. This isn't absurd if you accept the premise that an oversized government is directly responsible for our current woes. And is that not just the root of economic differences between the American left and the American right? The former believes more than the latter that the government's intervention in the economy can produce good results. Shrinking the government is not the same thing as doing nothing, and it is a policy suggestion that can be borne by more than selfishness.

[BVS]

Shrinking government is great in theory, but it's not a solution, and the problem is there are no real solutions offered. The space program wouldn't have been done left up to the private sector, it's not profitable. The majority of research will not be done, or at least not started in the private sector, it's not profitable. Healthcare is for the most part "free market" right now and look what it's done.

We even had a poster in here once suggest that highways and interstates should be privatized, can we imagine what a profitable infrastructure would look like?!

Shrinking the government does nothing for the problem, what we need to do is overhaul the government. Remove the pork, don't just talk about it, remove it. That alone would make such an incredible impact it would be ridiculous. Regulate lobbyist more!!!

The partisan divide of today is actually a religious one. There are people on the right that worship the free market, it can do no wrong and there is no place for government. There is a sector of society today that I honestly believe their beliefs are love of free market, love of gun, love of God, in that order.

Then their are people on the left that worship government, it needs to be everywhere and regulation will ultimately give them equality for all.

Both of these sectors are small, but they're loud and have a strong hold on both parties.

[nathan1977]

Originally Posted by Irvine511

i don't think Obama's race can ever be discounted in the sheer level of disdain and nihilism that's come across from the GOP since 2008.

While I don't disagree that race may be a factor for some Republicans, I think it's a cheap and easy distraction to focus on the President's race as opposed to having an honest and open discussion about the deep ideological divides that separate us. The problem is that race-and-gender bias are ephemeral things that can't really be proven easily, and which only prove incendiary and emotionally manipulative. It's far easier to play that card than to actually engage the ideological divide and figure out how to resolve differences. I really like Digitize and BVS' posts in that regard. We need more of that.

I'm not sure that this helps the cause either. I can't imagine what would have happened had Bush likened Senate Democrats in 06 to terrorists.
On Debt Ceiling, WH Compares GOP To Terrorists - Business Insider

[Irvine511]

What did the '06 Democrats do that would warrant a comparison with defunding the government and this debt ceiling nonsense?

I don't think false equivalence are helpful either.

I think race has been a political motivator since 1789, and most certainly wielded by the GOP since 1964.

[martha]

Originally Posted by Irvine511

just wait to see how they act when the next president has a vagina. #evenworse

No shit.

[INDY500]

Originally Posted by digitize

There's more to it than that. INDY can correct me, but I think that the average Republican believes that government investment in solar makes the economy worse while not being worth that tradeoff; that gun control's effects in limiting mass shootings are limited enough to not worth the sacrificing of individual liberty, or that gun control makes crime worse; that stimulus actually hurts job-creation (an opinion shared by most economists, actually); and that state-sponsored health care is bad for health care/the economy enough to not be worth any benefits that it may bring. Those tradeoffs are where policy differs, and it's important to understand them in developing policy positions. I'm not sure that ascribing a cause of cowardice for positions that are somewhat reasonably thought through (even though I certainly don't agree with all of them) is particularly productive.

I wouldn't correct a thing except to add that conservatives are all for solar and wind when and if they make economic sense. We're more interested in controlling criminals and nutjobs than guns. We understand that Washington doesn't create wealth it only redistributes it. And we would point out what will soon be painfully obvious to everyone but the drones; Obamacare isn't about providing healthcare it's about controlling healthcare.

[INDY500]

Originally Posted by Irvine511

just wait to see how they act when the next president has a vagina. #evenworse

Yes, please lecture conservatives on unhinged reactions to a woman occupying the White House.

[nathan1977]

Originally Posted by Irvine511

What did the '06 Democrats do that would warrant a comparison with defunding the government and this debt ceiling nonsense?

You mean besides unanimously voting against raising the debt ceiling, as advocated by then-Senator Barack Obama in 2006?

The fact that we are here today to debate raising America’s debt limit is a sign of leadership failure. It is a sign that the U.S. Government can’t pay its own bills. It is a sign that we now depend on ongoing financial assistance from foreign countries to finance our Government’s reckless fiscal policies. … Increasing America’s debt weakens us domestically and internationally. Leadership means that “the buck stops here.” Instead, Washington is shifting the burden of bad choices today onto the backs of our children and grandchildren. America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better. ... ... I therefore intend to oppose the effort to increase America’s debt limit.

Incidentally, the then-Senator opposed raising the debt ceiling to $9T. Now it's at $14.3T.

[AEON]

Originally Posted by INDY500

I wouldn't correct a thing except to add that conservatives are all for solar and wind when and if they make economic sense.

Well, with solar power dropping an average of 7% per year and fossil fuels rising an average of 4.5% a year - it won't be long before we finally have you on board. Better late than never...

[Irvine511]

Originally Posted by nathan1977

You mean besides unanimously voting against raising the debt ceiling, as advocated by then-Senator Barack Obama in 2006? Incidentally, the then-Senator opposed raising the debt ceiling to $9T. Now it's at $14.3T.

Here's some honesty:

I think that it's important to understand the vantage point of a senator versus the vantage point of a president. When you're a senator, traditionally what's happened is, this is always a lousy vote. Nobody likes to be tagged as having increased the debt limit — for the United States by a trillion dollars. As president, you start realizing, you know what, we, we can't play around with this stuff. This is the full faith and credit of the United States. And so that was just an example of a new senator making what is a political vote as opposed to doing what was important for the country. And I'm the first one to acknowledge it.

Read more at http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama...L1WcMTUKtPs.99

This also comes nowhere close to shutting down the government over Obamacare.

So, again, false equivalence.

[Irvine511]

Originally Posted by INDY500

Yes, please lecture conservatives on unhinged reactions to a woman occupying the White House.

Setting aside the fuckability factor, which, alongside being anti-choice, seems to have been this delusional Alaskan grifter's only qualifications for office, we have a long, long, long list of unhinged conservative reactions to Hillary Clinton.

[Irvine511]

Originally Posted by AEON

Well, with solar power dropping an average of 7% per year and fossil fuels rising an average of 4.5% a year - it won't be long before we finally have you on board. Better late than never...

But will the GOP be on board? Exxon Mobile controls a lot of politicians.

I should be more clear -- my revulsion is more about the GOP's than conservatives themselves.

[nathan1977]

Originally Posted by Irvine511

again, false equivalence.

It's not. The vote in 2006 was along party lines for the Democrats, who voted unanimously against raising the debt limit. You asked what the Dems in 2006 that was equivalent to voting against raising the debt ceiling. The answer is clear: the exact same damn thing.

So accusing the GOP of playing the exact same play book the Dems did, but calling the GOP's tactics racist, feels like an obfuscation and a smoke screen.

Let's hope our politicians can get beyond the political votes and start doing what's best for the country.

[AEON]

Originally Posted by Irvine511

I should be more clear -- my revulsion is more about the GOP's than conservatives themselves.

I can appreciate that...especially as a former Republican. I'm not to fond of the GOP these days either.

IS there a political party that supports personal conservatism, social libertarianism, and fiscal liberalism?

[anitram]

Originally Posted by nathan1977

It's not. The vote in 2006 was along party lines for the Democrats, who voted unanimously against raising the debt limit. You asked what the Dems in 2006 that was equivalent to voting against raising the debt ceiling. The answer is clear: the exact same damn thing..

Really?

The meaningless and symbolic vote that the Democrats took, on political grounds as is par for the course for them and everyone else in Washington, which had no chance of passing and caused no worry in the markets is the same as what's happened during Obama's term?

When the AAA rating was lost? And Republican shenanigans reached unheard of levels?

You're being disingenuous.