United States of Entropy - Page 14 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 04-18-2013, 12:05 AM   #261
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Jive Turkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 13,646
Local Time: 01:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by INDY500 View Post
Really, you wouldn't teach your children that? If no why, because you don't think it true? If yes then why not teach all children that?
I think you're a perfect example of why we should all keep our kids as far away from church as possible
__________________

Jive Turkey is offline  
Old 04-18-2013, 12:51 AM   #262
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 41,232
Local Time: 12:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by INDY500 View Post
but by far income disparity is a values problem.
You've been given a lot of flack for this comment, but I think I have to agree. We live in a society where you and others no longer value education, science, or sustainability. Hence why used car salesmen, drug reps, and false economy pushers make more than our teachers, scientists, and architects. You've worshiped this system that valued the wrong things for so long that you've become completely blind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by INDY500 View Post
Graduate, get a job, and then have children after you get married and your chances of living in poverty are almost zero. But you can't tell people that anymore because common sense is now deemed "mean."
Paul said this, right?
__________________

BVS is offline  
Old 04-18-2013, 07:05 AM   #263
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Kieran McConville's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Kony Island Baby
Posts: 10,244
Local Time: 03:22 PM
This thread is horseshit almost from start to finish. All the values in the world won't get us out of the bind that we (by 'we' I mean all developed economies) are likely automating away a substantial majority of livelihoods. Well, have been for a century or more, but there was always slack in the system before. Less so now, I suspect.

There are pluses and minuses to this (for example many menial service jobs are pretty fucking boring and/or demeaning), but to pretend that respectable existence, for a smaller or larger majority, in the future can or will hinge on a paying wage occupation is... a bit of a worry.

Death to the protestant work ethic. It is a curse on society. It's the wrong hammer for the wrong problem.
Kieran McConville is offline  
Old 04-18-2013, 10:45 AM   #264
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 33,468
Local Time: 01:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by INDY500 View Post

* as defined by all major religions and civilization throughout all previous generations prior to our current generation.


you realize your boyfriend Charles Murray supports SSM.
Irvine511 is online now  
Old 04-22-2013, 09:24 PM   #265
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: The American Resistance
Posts: 4,754
Local Time: 11:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irvine511 View Post
you realize your boyfriend Charles Murray supports SSM.
No, he's simply chosen not to fight SSM as he feels our economic situation is too perilous to waste debating such an emotional issue.
INDY500 is offline  
Old 04-22-2013, 09:28 PM   #266
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 33,468
Local Time: 01:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by INDY500 View Post

No, he's simply chosen not to fight SSM as he feels our economic situation is too perilous to waste debating such an emotional issue.

No, he actually supports it.

And, unlike you, he doesn't think it's making unmarried black teenagers get pregnant.
Irvine511 is online now  
Old 04-22-2013, 09:47 PM   #267
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: The American Resistance
Posts: 4,754
Local Time: 11:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by anitram View Post
There are two main drivers of income inequality in the US.

First, the current tax system is progressive in terms of marginal rates but it is not really progressive, especially when you get to the 1% of income tax earners. The unfairness arises from things such as: rates too low (not so much on the top 10% but certainly on the top 1% - lowest among all OECD countries), the low tax rate on capital gains, passing of assets to future generation, treatment of luxury assets (like vacation homes, for example) and the absurd carried interest rates which allows hedge fund managers' incomes to be taxed at capital gains rates (!!).
I'm all for tax reform and simplification. I'd do away with separate contributions for S.S. and Medicare since the idea that it's a "contribution" is a joke anyway and go with just one flat rate, maybe two. Allowing workers on the bottom of the tax code to be refunded S.S. and Medicare and not exempting it on the higher scale is the type of fix I could support morally and fiscally.

But again I ask; does a tax code exist for the purposes of raising revenues or for “fairness.”

Quote:
Second, in the last 2 decades or so there has been a stunning rise in return on capital and a corresponding lower return on labour. Plainly speaking, the rich own the capital, the poor have the labour. The rich have experienced huge returns on capital while the poor have not seen returns on their labour (work). The main drivers of this are as follows. First, international trade which has resulted in jobs, particularly manufacturing and industrial sectors, to move abroad. What does this mean? Huge returns on the corporate level (ie. returns on CAPITAL), no return on labour. Second, technology has resulted in corporations being able to split up jobs into tasks. This means that you can do with fewer workers. Again, return on CAPITAL, no return on labour.

As a result of all of this, you have the following corporate profits as a share of GDP outcome:

That's shocking! And as corporate profits rise, inequality grows.
Well now who’s only telling part of the story? Private corporations are indeed making large profits, which for workers with retirement funds invested in the stock market is a good thing. Profits are a good thing. What is not good is that companies are sitting on their profits rather than hiring, expanding or investing in capital projects. Some 2 trillion dollars of liquid assets which greedy companies should be investing in growing and making even more money but aren’t. Why? My guess is economic uncertainty over Obamacare, tax rates and looming regulation.

Now the drivers you don’t mention. The main driver of inequity is that we live in a meritocracy which, due to technology, the licensing of professions and other factors increasingly rewards brain power and unique talents. Due to globalization, automation and immigration the value of low-skill labor is decreasing.
One example; in 1980 Nolan Ryan became the first major league baseball player to make one million dollars per year. 30 years later the average salary is well over one million dollars. Why should CEO’s, Wall St fund managers and others be different, which in no way endorses everything that goes on in boardrooms or Wall St.
There is a return on labor, just not all labor.

Quote:
So then what you have is low rates of savings among Americans. Here you'll come in to tell us about everyone who overspent on a large house or who can't manage their money, but the truth is that by and large, most Americans cannot afford to save adequate amounts of money.
Why is personal savings low? For one why would you when interest rates for savings accounts are zero, held artificially low because of what would happen to our debt service costs should they rise to normal levels? Two, taxes. Mid to low income populations might save more if they were allowed to keep more of their money. Here are tax burdens and Tax Freedom Day by decade. Would I go back to 1920 levels of taxation and give up interstates, the CDC, SDI, NASA and other things that make us safer or assist in my pursuit of happiness, no. But higher taxation does come out of the family budget.
Year TFD Percentage tax burden
1900 January 22 5.9%
1910 January 19 5.0%
1920 February 13 12.0%
1930 February 12 11.7%
1940 March 7 17.9%
1950 March 31 24.6%
1960 April 11 27.7%
1970 April 19 29.6%
1980 April 21 30.4%
1990 April 21 30.4%
2000 May 1 33.0%
2012 April 17 29.2%

Quote:
Which translates to relying on the government to make up the difference. In 1929, the share of government subsidy in a person's disposable income was 1%. Today, it is 20%. One fifth of an average American's disposable income comes from the government! This is what the Republicans want to cut. BUT if you cut that, then the private sector needs to step in. There are essentially two ways: by raising corporate taxes and taxes on top income earners OR by corporations voluntarily starting to pay people considerably more money such that they make a living wage (instead we have full-time Walmart employees on food stamps).
No surprise since 2/3rds of federal spending is now entitlement spending. And how much is that going up with Obamacare subsidies available well into the middle class?
But to the point, male participation rate is at its lowest point since they began taking figures in 1948. How much of this 20% is the government stepping in to supply what wage-earning fathers used to supply? Ever watch the Obama administration's "Life of Julia"— the cartoon explaining the cradle-to-grave government programs that provide for Julia's happy, successful and husbandless life?


You may not want to admit that there are good and poor lifestyle choices and that they contribute to income disparity but, for example, single mothers are six times more likely to live in poverty than married mothers.
Again, libertarianism and the welfare state can’t coexist for long.
Quote:
The point being is that this isn't about values or gay marriage or sluts having sex outside of marriage or people not getting degrees or cohabiting before marriage or not going to Church on Sunday. It is a long process that has been punctuated by runaway corporate profits which have NOT filtered down to the lower and middle classes and the rich benefiting by virtue of holding all the capital. Every economist out there will tell you that this is not sustainable. You can keep yammering about values or you can wake up and smell the coffee and educate yourself about the statistics and the data.
Marxist yammering.
Corporations only make profits when the services or products they provide find favor with consumers, including lower and middle income consumers. By the way, what happens to the employees of a company that fails to make a profit? And profits do filter down in compensation other than wages such as health care, paid family leave as well as 401K contributions. If you think corporation X is making “runaway profits” why aren’t you on the phone buying stock in their company?
And finally, what is sustainable about a government that borrows 40 cents of every dollar they spend and has unfunded liabilities on $70 trillion. What happens to the truly needy when it all implodes?
INDY500 is offline  
Old 04-22-2013, 09:53 PM   #268
Blue Crack Addict
 
anitram's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: NY
Posts: 18,918
Local Time: 01:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by INDY500 View Post
If you think corporation X is making “runaway profits” why aren’t you on the phone buying stock in their company?
Don't worry, my partner and I have done extremely well. I'd be willing to wager good money that we've done exponentially better than you under the current "meritocracy" system. If I were to adopt your attitude, I'd have to conclude that you're lazier than us and/or have made worse life choices. Because it's really that simple in life?
anitram is offline  
Old 04-22-2013, 11:28 PM   #269
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 33,468
Local Time: 01:22 AM
By this logic of profit is everything, my homo values and choices are likewise superior to INDY.

Making matters worse, one of us is a media executive and the other is a Fed. Horrors. And our disposable income is spent on foreign travel.

And yet, I've never made anyone a single mother.
Irvine511 is online now  
Old 04-22-2013, 11:50 PM   #270
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Jive Turkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 13,646
Local Time: 01:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by anitram View Post
Don't worry, my partner and I have done extremely well. I'd be willing to wager good money that we've done exponentially better than you under the current "meritocracy" system. If I were to adopt your attitude, I'd have to conclude that you're lazier than us and/or have made worse life choices. Because it's really that simple in life?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irvine511 View Post
By this logic of profit is everything, my homo values and choices are likewise superior to INDY.

Making matters worse, one of us is a media executive and the other is a Fed. Horrors. And our disposable income is spent on foreign travel.

And yet, I've never made anyone a single mother.

I think both these statements perfectly support Indy's hypothesis when we take into consideration the values he displays here
Jive Turkey is offline  
Old 04-23-2013, 12:09 AM   #271
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 33,468
Local Time: 01:22 AM
Taking another step back, the blue states have vastly superior "values" than the Red States.
Irvine511 is online now  
Old 04-23-2013, 06:21 AM   #272
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: The American Resistance
Posts: 4,754
Local Time: 11:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by anitram View Post
Don't worry, my partner and I have done extremely well. I'd be willing to wager good money that we've done exponentially better than you under the current "meritocracy" system. If I were to adopt your attitude, I'd have to conclude that you're lazier than us and/or have made worse life choices. Because it's really that simple in life?
Is it not possible for you to argue public policies, political philosophies or value systems strictly on their merits rather than making everything, EVERYTHING, personal?

Good grief.
INDY500 is offline  
Old 04-23-2013, 06:31 AM   #273
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: The American Resistance
Posts: 4,754
Local Time: 11:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irvine511 View Post
Taking another step back, the blue states have vastly superior "values" than the Red States.

Quote:
Americans Are Migrating To More Free Republican States
Wed, Mar 27 2013 00:00:00 E 00_WEB
By JOHN MERLINE, INVESTOR'S BUSINESS DAILY


Americans are migrating from less-free liberal states to more-free conservative states, where they are doing better economically, according to a new study published Thursday by George Mason University's Mercatus Center.

The "Freedom in the 50 States" study measured economic and personal freedom using a wide range of criteria, including tax rates, government spending and debt, regulatory burdens, and state laws covering land use, union organizing, gun control, education choice and more.

It found that the freest states tended to be conservative "red" states, while the least free were liberal "blue" states.


The freest state overall, the researchers concluded, was North Dakota, followed by South Dakota, Tennessee, New Hampshire and Oklahoma. The least free state by far was New York, followed by California, New Jersey, Hawaii and Rhode Island.





Freedom in the 50 States 2013 | Overall Freedom | Mercatus Center






Americans Migrating To More Free GOP States With Better Income Growth - Investors.com
INDY500 is offline  
Old 04-23-2013, 07:36 AM   #274
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Jive Turkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 13,646
Local Time: 01:22 AM
Did Indy just post a quantitative diagram on 'freedom'?

hahahahaha

Sorry, Vermont. You're down 3 freedoms from 4 years ago.
Jive Turkey is offline  
Old 04-23-2013, 08:17 AM   #275
Blue Crack Addict
 
anitram's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: NY
Posts: 18,918
Local Time: 01:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by INDY500 View Post
Is it not possible for you to argue public policies, political philosophies or value systems strictly on their merits rather than making everything, EVERYTHING, personal?
Some cognitive dissonance you have going on there.

YOU are the one who insists on making these matters personal because rather than arguing on economic, political, social merits, YOU constantly bring up values, individual choices (typically poor unless they agree with your values) and gay/unideal marriage. Every single time.
anitram is offline  
Old 04-23-2013, 10:08 AM   #276
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 33,468
Local Time: 01:22 AM

Oh come on.
Irvine511 is online now  
Old 04-23-2013, 12:44 PM   #277
Resident Photo Buff
Forum Moderator
 
Diemen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Somewhere in middle America
Posts: 13,663
Local Time: 11:22 PM
The irony is that the very people that, by indy's account, lack the proper values to get off the government teat, are most populous in these states that have higher degrees of this so-called "freedom."
Diemen is offline  
Old 04-23-2013, 12:50 PM   #278
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 33,468
Local Time: 01:22 AM
When I lived in Belgium, I once got very sick. I went to the doctor and waited for maybe 5 minutes. I say with him as he did a thorough examination in slow, but careful Wnglish. He then diagnosed what was wrong (strep throat) and wrote me a prescription that I took to the pharmacy one block away. I waited for 10 minutes. Paid $20. Got a receipt that I was instructed to mail in and 2 weeks later I was fully reimbursed.

Felt pretty free to me.
Irvine511 is online now  
Old 05-07-2013, 09:50 PM   #279
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Jive Turkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 13,646
Local Time: 01:22 AM
I hope you're enjoying your grapes, Indy



(I'm actually not posting this as any sort of commentary. Just thought it was funny and kinda fit in here in a weird way....Maybe if we had a Morality thread, then I'd be illustrating a point )
Jive Turkey is offline  
Old 09-22-2013, 08:41 PM   #280
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: The American Resistance
Posts: 4,754
Local Time: 11:22 PM
33 Shocking Facts Which Show How Badly The Economy Has Tanked Under Obama | Zero Hedge
Quote:
#1 When Barack Obama entered the White House, 60.6 percent of working age Americans had a job. Today, only 58.7 percent of working age Americans have a job.

#2 Since Obama has been president, seven out of every eight jobs that have been "created" in the U.S. economy have been part-time jobs.

#3 The number of full-time workers in the United States is still nearly 6 million below the old record that was set back in 2007.

#4 It is hard to believe, but an astounding 53 percent of all American workers now make less than $30,000 a year.

#5 40 percent of all workers in the United States actually make less than what a full-time minimum wage worker made back in 1968.

#6 When the Obama era began, the average duration of unemployment in this country was 19.8 weeks. Today, it is 36.6 weeks.

#7 During the first four years of Obama, the number of Americans "not in the labor force" soared by an astounding 8,332,000. That far exceeds any previous four year total.

#8 According to the U.S. Census Bureau, the middle class is taking home a smaller share of the overall income pie than has ever been recorded before.

#9 When Obama was elected, the homeownership rate in the United States was 67.5 percent. Today, it is 65.0 percent. That is the lowest that it has been in 18 years.

#10 When Obama entered the White House, the mortgage delinquency rate was 7.85 percent. Today, it is 9.72 percent.

#11 In 2008, the U.S. trade deficit with China was 268 billion dollars. Last year, it was 315 billion dollars.

#12 When Obama first became president, 12.5 million Americans had manufacturing jobs. Today, only 11.9 million Americans have manufacturing jobs.

#13 Median household income in America has fallen for four consecutive years. Overall, it has declined by over $4000 during that time span.

#14 The poverty rate has shot up to 16.1 percent. That is actually higher than when the War on Poverty began in 1965.

#15 During Obama's first term, the number of Americans on food stamps increased by an average of about 11,000 per day.

#16 When Barack Obama entered the White House, there were about 32 million Americans on food stamps. Today, there are more than 47 million Americans on food stamps.

#17 At this point, more than a million public school students in the United States are homeless. This is the first time that has ever happened in our history. That number has risen by 57 percent since the 2006-2007 school year.

#18 When Barack Obama took office, the average price of a gallon of regular gasoline was $1.85. Today, it is $3.53.

#19 Electricity bills in the United States have risen faster than the overall rate of inflation for five years in a row.
#20 Health insurance costs have risen by 29 percent since Barack Obama became president, and Obamacare is going to make things far worse.

#21 The United States has fallen in the global economic competitiveness rankings compiled by the World Economic Forum for four years in a row.

#22 According to economist Tim Kane, the following is how the number of startup jobs per 1000 Americans breaks down by presidential administration...

Bush Sr.: 11.3

Clinton: 11.2

Bush Jr.: 10.8

Obama: 7.8

#23 In 2008, that total amount of student loan debt in this country was 440 billion dollars. At this point, it has shot up to about a trillion dollars.

#24 According to one recent survey, 76 percent of all Americans are living paycheck to paycheck.

#25 During Obama's first term, the number of Americans collecting federal disability insurance rose by more than 18 percent.

#26 The total amount of money that the federal government gives directly to the American people has grown by 32 percent since Barack Obama became president.

#27 According to the Survey of Income and Program Participation conducted by the U.S. Census, well over 100 million Americans are enrolled in at least one welfare program run by the federal government.

#28 As I wrote about the other day, American households are now receiving more money directly from the federal government than they are paying to the government in taxes.

#29 Under Barack Obama, the velocity of money (a very important indicator of economic health) has plunged to a post-World War II low.

#30 At the end of 2008, the Federal Reserve held $475.9 billion worth of U.S. Treasury bonds. Today, Fed holdings of U.S. Treasury bonds have skyrocketed past the 2 trillion dollar mark.

#31 When Barack Obama was first elected, the U.S. debt to GDP ratio was under 70 percent. Today, it is up to 101 percent.

#32 During Obama's first term, the federal government accumulated more new debt than it did under the first 42 U.S presidents combined.

#33 When you break it down, the amount of new debt accumulated by the U.S. government during Obama's first term comes to approximately $50,521 for every single household in the United States.
A sad record of economic malaise, growing entitlement, debt and people are suffering for it.
__________________

INDY500 is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:22 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com
×