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Old 04-09-2013, 09:58 PM   #201
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilsFan View Post
Ha! Nice crack (get it?) about the Phillies logo there!

These recent posts have been so awful I had to take a vacation. Hopefully I will be ready to respond soon.
Can I assume that you now realize how misdirected your anger towards my sig was and now properly direct it towards your misinformed education regarding liberty and equality? It’s OK, most people don’t properly understand it. If not, on the occasion of Margaret Thatcher's death let us hear her on the "equality" of the Left vs prosperity and economic freedom (i.e. liberty).



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Old 04-09-2013, 10:04 PM   #202
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God, no. I've just been busy. I'm violently ill today, so I'll take this opportunity to crack my fingers and reply.
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Old 04-09-2013, 10:21 PM   #203
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First of all, you never addressed this post, in which I explained how you were drawing almost entirely incorrect conclusions from my words: http://www.u2interference.com/forums...ml#post7637124

Part of my anger was simply that, once again, you dodged a post, specifically one where I took the time to answer your post in depth, in a step-by-step manner. You can see why I often prefer more blunt replies when my detailed, cordial replies go ignored.

Now, on to this post that you're referring to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by INDY500 View Post
You hate my signature? Odd coming from someone named PhilsFan whose team has in its own logo the, wait for it... Liberty Bell (note the name).



In fact, how many buildings in Philadelphia have the name Liberty in them compared to Equality? You get the point. Now I'm more than happy to respond because your "hate" arises, I think, because we understand and strive for a different definition of equality.
My Lord, this is silly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by INDY500 View Post
Equality--as understood when the Liberty bell was still being rung--was that of a natural (or God given) right to live freely under self-government, to acquire and keep property (including wages) gained through one's own labor and enterprise and to be treated without prejudice before the law.
By "to acquire and keep property (including wages)," are you trying to imply that taxes should not exist at all? Because other than that, I can't possibly see where you are not seeing eye-to-eye with the left so far. These are, to me, universally agreed upon thoughts, albeit with a few (or a vast minority ) exceptions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by INDY500 View Post
That all men are created equal before the law and before God but that inequality is the natural state of man because each individual is born with unique talents and strengths and therefore some will prosper or succeed more than others. We have the right "to pursue happiness," not a right to happiness.
Sure, again, no disagreement. But it is positively infuriating that you think I disagree with this, and it makes me think you're either too lazy or too far gone to bother trying to understand anyone's arguments against you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by INDY500 View Post
These are high ideals but we are mere men so grave injustices and base prejudices have, are and will always exist. The promise of the Constitution, the blindfolded Lady Justice and of natural law demands redress in these cases but when taken too far you have the equality of the Left.

The equality of the Left is not that of equality of opportunity but of equality of economic and social outcomes. The Left envisions an egalitarian society with an ever growing government leveling the playing field through "social justice" and redistribution schemes, i.e., authoritarian collectivism. This form of equality, over time, creates a culture of uniformity and dependence and crushes individual initiative, self-reliance, risk-taking and independence that can only thrive when men live free.
No, it's simply not. The idea that we on the left are putting forth is much closer to moderation than you want to paint it: it's the idea that life is unequal, and that we should govern with at least an understanding of that in mind. If we govern with the idea that if you pull yourself up by your bootstraps you're going to succeed and that if you're poor you didn't, we're going to ignore plenty of major problems in this country.

I don't want rich people to be taxed so heavily that we're all in essentially the same income bracket. No one on the left is suggesting such an idea. So, again, what the hell are you talking about?
Quote:
Originally Posted by INDY500 View Post
Extreme example, North Korea. Now that's a country where equality reigns.
This is fucking stupid.
Quote:
Originally Posted by INDY500 View Post
I should also note one way in which liberty or freedom is defined differently. The freedom of the founders was the "freedom from harassment." This is enumerated in the negative rights of the first ten amendments. The Left from FDR to present pushes "freedom from want" through the Welfare State. This was first enumerated in FDR's Second Bill of Rights if you doubt me.
Doesn't the fact that I have never even heard of FDR's Second Bill of Rights tell you that maybe, just maybe, that's not the current policy on the left in this day and age?
Quote:
Originally Posted by INDY500 View Post
In short, you can't be for; big government, a progressive tax-code, affirmative action, minimum and equal wage laws, quotas, positive rights, etc without realizing they come at a cost... that of liberty.
I don't want big government. You do. You want a government that tells people what they can and cannot do in social situations. I want a government that let's people be free on those issues. Gays can marry. Women can decide if they need an abortion on their own. A drug less harmless than alcohol can legalized with similar precautions put in about actions done under the influence.

What I do want from the government is for my taxes to go towards things private enterprise can supply on its own. I want infrastructure. I want good public education. I want options for people who are not being offered reasonable health insurance by the private sector. I don't think that's big government, and I don't think it's too much to ask for things like that.

And are you really arguing against minimum wage?
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Old 04-09-2013, 11:18 PM   #204
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Indy misrepresents the term equality. Whether that's intentional to stir the pot is up for debate
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Old 04-10-2013, 09:30 AM   #205
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I'm not sure if this one belongs here or in one of the other threads about Obama, Republicans, the (US) economy, etc. But it is an interesting analysis of obstructionism and moving goalposts:
Another moment of real clarity in the fiscal debate
Quote:
There is literally nothing that Obama can offer Republicans — not even things they themselves have asked for — that would induce them to agree to a compromise on new revenues.
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Old 04-10-2013, 01:27 PM   #206
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Originally Posted by INDY500 View Post
Can I assume that you now realize how misdirected your anger towards my sig was and now properly direct it towards your misinformed education regarding liberty and equality? It’s OK, most people don’t properly understand it. If not, on the occasion of Margaret Thatcher's death let us hear her on the "equality" of the Left vs prosperity and economic freedom (i.e. liberty).





you realize Obama is to the right of Ms. Thatcher, correct? that she talked about "social services" by which we can infer that she means the NHS, you know, socialist medicine miles and miles to the Left of Obamacare?

or are you yelling at Eastwood's chair again?
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Old 04-10-2013, 03:26 PM   #207
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CNN - Obama Administration Solely to Blame for Plummeting Job Creation
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Old 04-10-2013, 04:14 PM   #208
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CNN, and that writer in particular, have a bias
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Old 04-15-2013, 07:23 PM   #209
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Before I start I am going to use the term “the Left” rather than liberal, progressive or Democrat. The Left is anti-capitalist and frankly anti-American values. But unfortunately they are swallowing up the Democratic party and liberals and now push the economic and social agenda in this country. You will have to tell me where you differ from the Left’s philosophies as there many Americans that have been taught to hate conservatives but have no idea how damaging support of the modern Democratic party is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by INDY500
You hate my signature? Odd coming from someone named PhilsFan whose team has in its own logo the, wait for it... Liberty Bell (note the name).

In fact, how many buildings in Philadelphia have the name Liberty in them compared to Equality? You get the point. Now I'm more than happy to respond because your "hate" arises, I think, because we understand and strive for a different definition of equality.

Philly:
My Lord, this is silly.
Actually it’s not silly. The point is there is a reason that in America we treasure liberty, through our words and monuments, more than any other virtue; including equality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by INDY500
Equality--as understood when the Liberty bell was still being rung--was that of a natural (or God given) right to live freely under self-government, to acquire and keep property (including wages) gained through one's own labor and enterprise and to be treated without prejudice before the law.

Philly:
By "to acquire and keep property (including wages)," are you trying to imply that taxes should not exist at all? Because other than that, I can't possibly see where you are not seeing eye-to-eye with the left so far. These are, to me, universally agreed upon thoughts, albeit with a few (or a vast minority ) exceptions.
Conservatives have little problem paying taxes for the constitutionally prescribed duties of the federal government. Where in the Constitution is the government given the power to tax from one party to give to another party merely for the purpose of “fairness” however? Is the purpose of a tax code to raise revenue for the function of government in the most efficient manner or for equality? Well, I would argue that the Left favors fairness over efficiency and here is but one example from the 2008 Presidential debates:

GIBSON: All right. You have, however, said you would favor an increase in the capital gains tax. As a matter of fact, you said on CNBC, and I quote, "I certainly would not go above what existed under Bill Clinton," which was 28 percent. It's now 15 percent. That's almost a doubling, if you went to 28 percent.
But actually, Bill Clinton, in 1997, signed legislation that dropped the capital gains tax to 20 percent.
OBAMA: Right.
GIBSON: And George Bush has taken it down to 15 percent.
OBAMA: Right.
GIBSON: And in each instance, when the rate dropped, revenues from the tax increased; the government took in more money. And in the 1980s, when the tax was increased to 28 percent, the revenues went down.
So why raise it at all, especially given the fact that 100 million people in this country own stock and would be affected?
OBAMA: Well, Charlie, what I've said is that I would look at raising the capital gains tax for purposes of fairness.


Quote:
Originally Posted by INDY500
These are high ideals but we are mere men so grave injustices and base prejudices have, are and will always exist. The promise of the Constitution, the blindfolded Lady Justice and of natural law demands redress in these cases but when taken too far you have the equality of the Left.

The equality of the Left is not that of equality of opportunity but of equality of economic and social outcomes. The Left envisions an egalitarian society with an ever growing government leveling the playing field through "social justice" and redistribution schemes, i.e., authoritarian collectivism. This form of equality, over time, creates a culture of uniformity and dependence and crushes individual initiative, self-reliance, risk-taking and independence that can only thrive when men live free.

Philly
No, it's simply not. The idea that we on the left are putting forth is much closer to moderation than you want to paint it: it's the idea that life is unequal, and that we should govern with at least an understanding of that in mind. If we govern with the idea that if you pull yourself up by your bootstraps you're going to succeed and that if you're poor you didn't, we're going to ignore plenty of major problems in this country.

I don't want rich people to be taxed so heavily that we're all in essentially the same income bracket. No one on the left is suggesting such an idea. So, again, what the hell are you talking about?
They do suggest just that but unfortunately there aren’t enough rich people to tax to shrink the income gap without, as Margaret Thatcher noted, prosperity being lowered for everyone. But when your goal is equality not prosperity that makes little difference.

But here is Al Sharpton who ran for president as a Democrat and has his own show on MSNBC.
.
Video: Al Sharpton: We Won’t Have True Social Justice Until Everything Is ‘Equal In Everybody’s House’ | Intellectual Takeout (ITO)

Quote:
Al Sharpton: We Won’t Have True Social Justice Until Everything Is ‘Equal In Everybody’s House’
The Left has taken the “equality of opportunity” and turned it into the “rights” of entitlement and unearned security. The right to a living wage, the right to healthcare, etc.

Here is another very recent example from a college student in a question asked of Rand Paul.

Howard Student To Rand Paul: "I Want A Government That Is Going To Help Me" | RealClearPolitics

Quote:
"Good afternoon, Senator. My name is Keenan Glover, I’m an administration of justice major from Rochester, New York. A freshman, as well. You say you want to provide a government that leaves us alone. Quite frankly, I don’t want that. I want a government that is going to help me. I want a government that is going to help me fund my college education.
By the government he means other taxpayers so let’s be clear about that first. Now Philly, what is the great American Experiment? What is the promise of America? That our government would provide equal and maximum opportunity for me to prosper and, through my labor and talents, take care of myself, my family and my community or that government would provide a certain level of security and freedom from want by taking the wages of others?
Actually let’s let the student answer that.

Quote:
Do you, Senator Rand Paul, have a solution to come up with new American values so that the citizens of this nation have a worth of more than dead presidents and Ben Franklin?”
New American values. Just know that when you support the Left you support “new American values.”


Quote:
Originally Posted by INDY500
Extreme example, North Korea. Now that's a country where equality reigns.

Philly:
This is fucking stupid.
Stupid? Remember, this whole debate is on liberty vs. equality. This is a perfect example that...

equality without liberty is tyranny.

Slaves in America had neither liberty or equality but what had to be secured first for the other to occur?

That is why we have a Liberty Bell and a Statue of Liberty. Equality is a natural right and a promise of our country but it cannot be our animating principle. Equality is the animating principle to the Left however. Socialism, Marxism, Communism; all promise equality while the modern Left in America pushes social justice and fairness. You don’t hear Barack Obama talk about prosperity or individual liberty or responsibility your hear him talk about "fairness," "collective redemption" and “shared prosperity.”

Quote:
Originally Posted by INDY500
I should also note one way in which liberty or freedom is defined differently. The freedom of the founders was the "freedom from harassment." This is enumerated in the negative rights of the first ten amendments. The Left from FDR to present pushes "freedom from want" through the Welfare State. This was first enumerated in FDR's Second Bill of Rights if you doubt me.

Philly:
Doesn't the fact that I have never even heard of FDR's Second Bill of Rights tell you that maybe, just maybe, that's not the current policy on the left in this day and age?
Does Barack Obama count?
Obama, FDR and the Second Bill of Rights - Bloomberg

Quote:
As the actions of his first term made clear, and as his second inaugural address declared, President Barack Obama is committed to a distinctive vision of American government. It emphasizes the importance of free enterprise, and firmly rejects “equality of result,” but it is simultaneously committed to ensuring both fair opportunity and decent security for all.

In these respects, Obama is updating Franklin Delano Roosevelt’s Second Bill of Rights. To be sure, his second term has barely started, and his precise place in history remains to be established. Yet we can’t appreciate the arc of American politics, or the nation’s current situation and prospects, without understanding the Second Bill.
-Cass R. Sunstein, the former administrator of the White House Office of Information and Regulatory Affairs
Well, to begin with Cass is not being truthful in the opening. The president hardly “emphasizes the importance of free enterprise.” He emphasizes “you didn’t build that”and ”spread the wealth around,” Nor does he “reject equality of result” because all he talks about is “pay their fair share” and “shared prosperity.”


This is FDR’s 2nd Bill of Rights by the way (with a partial list of modern government programs and bureaucracies that support them). All of these the Left seeks to expand regardless of cost, effectiveness or that they are bankrupting the country.

The right to a useful and remunerative job in the industries or shops or farms or mines of the nation.
(Labor Dept)
The right to earn enough to provide adequate food and clothing and recreation.
(minimum wage laws, living wage argument, food stamps)
The right of every farmer to raise and sell his products at a return which will give him and his family a decent living.
(farm subsidies, Ag Dept)
The right of every businessman, large and small, to trade in an atmosphere of freedom from unfair competition and domination by monopolies at home or abroad.
The right of every family to a decent home.
(Sec 8, Community reinvestment Act, Sub-prime loans, Fanny and Freddie mortgage securities)
The right to adequate medical care and the opportunity to achieve and enjoy good health.
(Medicaid, Obamacare, HHS)
The right to adequate protection from the economic fears of old age, sickness, accident and unemployment.
(Social security, Medicare, unemployment compensation)
The right to a good education.
(student loan guaranties, Dept of Education, and $$$$$)

Quote:
Originally Posted by INDY500
In short, you can't be for; big government, a progressive tax-code, affirmative action, minimum and equal wage laws, quotas, positive rights, etc without realizing they come at a cost... that of liberty.

Philly:
And are you really arguing against minimum wage
http://www.u2interference.com/forums...se-172423.html

One several nice discussions we had on the topic.

There isn’t one economic argument for the minimum wage. How is whacking off the lower rungs of the economic ladder or making labor more expensive economically prudent?

Milton Friedman in under a minutes explains:



Philly, please remember that I am talking about Leftism, If something I said doesn't apply to your views I'd love to hear that. But by the same standard, please don't throw things back at me that I didn't say. I didn't say there is no role for a government safety net. No need to pay taxes. I didn't say that government intervention is never needed to end systemic inequality. I didn't say that inequality doesn't exist.
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Old 04-15-2013, 07:46 PM   #210
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Indy, I think you should do yourself a favour and stop using the word equality. The way you use it is not the way most people use it and it hurts your argument/makes you sounds like a dick. Despite your borderline paranoid fears about becoming North Korea and your poorly thought out stance on minimum wage (that video is one of the dumbest arguments I've ever heard. "Have people live in squalor and you can get your hamburgers for cheaper!"), your ideas about your 'equality' aren't that radical. Do yourself a solid and ditch the term and your reductio ad absurdum talking points; people might actually respect your opinion. might
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Old 04-15-2013, 07:56 PM   #211
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You don’t hear Barack Obama talk about prosperity or individual liberty or responsibility your hear him talk about "fairness," "collective redemption" and “shared prosperity.”
There was a very good article from Joseph Stiglitz in the NYT today about the current tax code and the American sense of fairness. The bottom line is that America is the worst place in the developed world in terms of income inequality right now. And that is not sustainable in the long term, as people who live in such anti-meritocratic borderline kleptocracies will tell you. You scoff at fairness; but eventually the complete lack of fairness which will become emblematic of America is the stuff of revolutions and the ruling class getting their heads chopped off. Even the dumbest student of history recognizes that.
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Old 04-15-2013, 10:05 PM   #212
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Income inequality is real and it is a problem (made all the worse by envy-merchants like our president). Part of it is how much more valuable brains are than brawn in today's economy but by far income disparity is a values problem.

Graduate, get a job, and then have children after you get married and your chances of living in poverty are almost zero. But you can't tell people that anymore because common sense is now deemed "mean."
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Old 04-15-2013, 10:11 PM   #213
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values problem.

Graduate, get a job, and then have children after you get married and your chances of living in poverty are almost zero. But you can't tell people that anymore because common sense is now deemed "mean."
Oh, jesus christ. You know you're a caricature, right?
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Old 04-15-2013, 10:35 PM   #214
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Income inequality is real and it is a problem (made all the worse by envy-merchants like our president). Part of it is how much more valuable brains are than brawn in today's economy but by far income disparity is a values problem.

Graduate, get a job, and then have children after you get married and your chances of living in poverty are almost zero. But you can't tell people that anymore because common sense is now deemed "mean."

I think everyone wants everyone to graduate, get a job, and then get married and have children (should they wish to).

The difference is that you think people are weak if they fail to do so.

Last week, I interviewed a woman who couldn't spell her own last name. Nor did she have teeth. She was poor, white, rural, and very Christian. Do you really think that's a *values* problem?

Or is "values" a buzzword conservatives use to absolve themselves of feeling any sense of social responsibility?
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Old 04-15-2013, 10:36 PM   #215
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Life is just that simple.

Astonishing.
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Old 04-15-2013, 10:42 PM   #216
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I see a ton of shitty, shitty parenting in my inner-city neighborhood.

Values aren't doing a thing about it.

Better funding for pre-school on the other hand might.
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Old 04-15-2013, 10:46 PM   #217
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Last week, I interviewed a woman who couldn't spell her own last name. Nor did she have teeth. She was poor, white, rural, and very Christian. Do you really think that's a *values* problem?
I don't like labels, and 'values' sounds like a phony slogan to me

but, I will say that woman sounds like a problem, I don't know why she ended up like this, I would like to see a way to get people to be self-suffuent

perhaps we should have government communes where people can contribute while they are being provided for, yeah I know that is close to work camps, but just giving people money for nothing is like stealing from the tax payers
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Old 04-15-2013, 10:50 PM   #218
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Graduate, get a job, and then have children after you get married and your chances of living in poverty are almost zero. But you can't tell people that anymore because common sense is now deemed "mean."
there is some good advice here

children born to or adopted by people that are in sound financial positions and in stable households is a good practice, I would even call that, ideal
we call that planned parenthood
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Old 04-15-2013, 10:53 PM   #219
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Values is an intangible, vague, and unfalsifiable term Indy invokes when he's got nothing substantial to say.
Maybe Indy can list all his values so we can adjust our lives accordingly. I'll start it for him and he can add:

Narcissistic
Bigoted
Homophobic
Elitist
Xenophobic
Selfish
Christ-like
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Old 04-16-2013, 06:29 AM   #220
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Graduate, get a job, and then have children after you get married and your chances of living in poverty are almost zero.
It really is just that simple, folks.
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