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Old 07-29-2008, 07:59 PM   #21
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so how would we feel if this guy had shot up a black church or a latino church, and then we found racist literature after the fact?
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Old 07-31-2008, 06:17 AM   #22
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Excellent point Irvine. In a country that prides itself on "liberty and justice for all." These words don't ring true for all of it's citizens. The "right wing" media would have been all over this.
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Old 07-31-2008, 07:57 AM   #23
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But those kind of books can contribute to an environment of hate against liberals where liberals are painted as subversive, mentally ill, anti-American, or whatever.
Just like Jonah Goldberg's Liberal Fascism: The Secret History of the American Left, from Mussolini to the Politics of Meaning. If Allan Bloom's book represented the starting salvo and "highest point" of the "culture wars," then this deceptive, intellectually dishonest garbage represents how low the discourse has sunk.
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Old 07-31-2008, 08:54 AM   #24
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so how would we feel if this guy had shot up a black church or a latino church, and then we found racist literature after the fact?
There's quite a difference between true racist literature and a Sean Hannity book, Irvine. By the way, O'Reilly's book and Hannity's book don't even mention gay marriage. People like Hannity or whoever else can discuss their opposition to gay marriage, but never in a million years would they or I EVER wish violence on a gay person or for all homosexuals to be killed. Now unfortunately, this guy did. But that is not what a vast majority of conservatives believe (the world has no use for the small portion of people who DO). That is what a racist believes.

Please, for all our sakes, tell me you're not equating racism with opposition to gay marriage.
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Old 07-31-2008, 08:56 AM   #25
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Please, for all our sakes, tell me you're not equating racism with opposition to gay marriage.
I'm not Irvine and frankly racism and anti-homosexual bigotry are one and the same in my book.
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Old 07-31-2008, 09:32 AM   #26
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Please, for all our sakes, tell me you're not equating racism with opposition to gay marriage.
Oh yes because they are miles apart. How are they different in your mind?
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Old 07-31-2008, 10:45 AM   #27
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There's quite a difference between true racist literature and a Sean Hannity book, Irvine. By the way, O'Reilly's book and Hannity's book don't even mention gay marriage. People like Hannity or whoever else can discuss their opposition to gay marriage, but never in a million years would they or I EVER wish violence on a gay person or for all homosexuals to be killed. Now unfortunately, this guy did. But that is not what a vast majority of conservatives believe (the world has no use for the small portion of people who DO). That is what a racist believes.

Please, for all our sakes, tell me you're not equating racism with opposition to gay marriage.
I'm curious why it's off-base to discuss this nut's reading material while the right have blamed rappers and Marilyn Manson for teen suicide, gang violence, and school shootings for years.

And how is opposing same-sex marriage any different than opposing interracial (or interfaith for that matter) marriage? Not to induce another same-sex marriage argument but I'm curious.
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Old 07-31-2008, 11:50 AM   #28
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How to tell people they sound racist

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Old 07-31-2008, 03:28 PM   #29
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There's quite a difference between true racist literature and a Sean Hannity book, Irvine. By the way, O'Reilly's book and Hannity's book don't even mention gay marriage.
but, seriously, look at some of their titles:

Godless: The Church of Liberalism
Slander: Liberal Lies About the American Right
The Enemy Within: Saving America from the Liberal Assault on Our Schools, Faith, and Military
Liberalism is a Mental Disorder
Treason
Culture Warrior
Let Freedom Ring: Winning the War of Liberty Over Liberalism

Deliver us from Evil: Defeating Terrorism, Despotism, and Liberalism

i mean, honestly, who's equating being liberal with being a terrorist or a despot?





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Please, for all our sakes, tell me you're not equating racism with opposition to gay marriage.

yes, i am. it's pretty much the same thing. judging people on form, not content.
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Old 07-31-2008, 05:39 PM   #30
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You know, as one of those hated gay liberals, I can't help but reply to this. But I just posted something on my politics blog about this guy...and it's pandering, and it's manipulative, and it's all the things that the Fox News Conservatives do...but I'll give you a hint. It's called: Why Sean Hannity and Other Conservatives Are Dangerous for Americans.

I may be exaggerating, but then it's exactly what the Neo-cons have been doing about Liberals. So I'm a pea in the other pot.

Whatever. I hope that guy goes to prison forever. And I really do believe Neo-Cons such as this guy and his Fox Cronies pose a threat to gays, Liberals, and people of color in the U.S.

One of the things I have really missed is the Free Your Mind forum.
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Old 08-01-2008, 08:45 AM   #31
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Welcome, camiloj! It's good to have you here.
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Old 08-01-2008, 12:21 PM   #32
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Godless: The Church of Liberalism
Slander: Liberal Lies About the American Right
The Enemy Within: Saving America from the Liberal Assault on Our Schools, Faith, and Military
Liberalism is a Mental Disorder
Treason
Culture Warrior
Let Freedom Ring: Winning the War of Liberty Over Liberalism

Deliver us from Evil: Defeating Terrorism, Despotism, and Liberalism
What happens when someone goes on a shooting rampage in, or torches a, church and we later find his den full of books like;

1) The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins

2) God Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything by Christopher Hitchens

3) The End of Faith: Religion, Terror, and the Future of Reason by Sam Harris

4) Breaking the Spell: Religion as a Natural Phenomenon by Daniel C. Dennett

Would that qualify as a hate crime?
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Old 08-01-2008, 02:39 PM   #33
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What happens when someone goes on a shooting rampage in, or torches a, church and we later find his den full of books like;

1) The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins

2) God Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything by Christopher Hitchens

3) The End of Faith: Religion, Terror, and the Future of Reason by Sam Harris

4) Breaking the Spell: Religion as a Natural Phenomenon by Daniel C. Dennett

Would that qualify as a hate crime?


first, i want to echo what i thought i had made clear -- i don't think that any kind of writing (or music, or movies) "causes" violence. i think people prone to violence are more apt to consume certain kinds of media and be unduly and unhealthily influenced by such things. thus, if the scenario you described above were to come to pass, no of course it would not surprise me -- though i hardly think you can compare the intelligence of Hitchens or Dawkins (whether you agree or not) to Sean Hannity, Ann Couler, or Michael Savage -- if someone had these books and, yes, i do think there is such a thing as a hate crime against a "believer" (for lack of a better word ... and, out of curiosity, how many atheists commit hate crimes against "believers"? do we know?)

but, again, step back: do the above titles even compare in their incendiariness to the titles i picked out by Hannity, Coulter, et al? i think you've made an equivocation between the two -- atheist intellectuals vs. conservative popular entertainers -- that really doesn't exist.
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Old 08-01-2008, 03:59 PM   #34
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What happens when someone goes on a shooting rampage in, or torches a, church and we later find his den full of books like;

1) The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins

2) God Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything by Christopher Hitchens

3) The End of Faith: Religion, Terror, and the Future of Reason by Sam Harris

4) Breaking the Spell: Religion as a Natural Phenomenon by Daniel C. Dennett

Would that qualify as a hate crime?
-


This strains credulity

as an agnostic, I could care less, what "belief system" people do within their own communities


the believer acts, because he believes he has a higher power on his side and the "others" are evil

and after his action, there is a better place waiting for him.


there are some odd exceptions, the uni-bomber, was legally insane, I am not sure if he was a "believer" or "non-believer"

and if any of these enviro 'Earth First' fanatics are non-believers their crimes are more against property, burning developments and hummers, not shooting people.
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Old 08-01-2008, 04:29 PM   #35
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I'm not Irvine and frankly racism and anti-homosexual bigotry are one and the same in my book.
I'm not Irvine either, and I also feel this way.

Unfortunately there is a large group of African-Americans & Afro-Carribeans who mostly because of some of the more conservatve churches have alot of homophobic beleifs.

I can even site myself as a white person who b/c of the religion I grew up in did take in, and formarly had those views to an extent, plus in the late 50's early 60's [pre-Stonewall] those views were quite more openly prevalent, and thus more easily "absorbed"-
though nowehre near wanting death/imprisonment or governmental second-class citizenship as I understood back it then (marriage was not an isssue back then) for gays & lesbians.

I chalk up not having really virulent anti-gay views to my parents who didn't go on & on & on about it, and thus amplify the effects of what I'd already taken in.

They were usually too busy (besides trying to care of my very asthmatic mom from when I was 5 yrs on) to teaching me about Art/ Music/ Nature/Sports & the Liberal POV.

They allowed me to have friends of all religious, ethic & racial backgrounds from a young age....and as I met these various people over time at school, summer play-programs, or in the neighborhood, and those who clicked personality & interests-wise with me became my friends.

From these above 2 paragraphs I'll now contrast....how my homophobic beleifs were mostly ( not completely, but I'm working on it when the little that is left shows up).

It's actually somewhat like how some people broguth up to be rascists eventually lose that form of "sickness".

There were very few people in my earlier schooling who were so "flaming" that it was rather obvious that they could be gay, or bi-sexual. I made fun of them in my mind, or when some straight guys were making fun in a gerneral way of gay men- not at some one in particular I'd laughed right along.

Then I got to College. I met all kinds of cool people there, too. Including one particular smart, kind creative guy who I'd hang out with him & his friends. I fell in love with him, eventually.

He did not recipretcate. Two years in there was the first Gay Dance in our college ( a few years after Stonewall)- a serious coming-out event. And there he was dancing with other guys.
Oh, the big ole tear-drops that I wept over weeks!

But once I got over that I realized I never wanted any harm to come to him because he was gay (or for any other reason, of course). Two more of his friends - one came out, one never really came out. But there were all people I liked.

SO from that point i had to confront my old POV and start to change it. And some it more naturally faded away without much internal "confrontation".

When you start to see "The Other" as yourself real biogtry can be extinguished, or at the very least very, very diminished & easier to note, and continue to be worked on.
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Old 08-01-2008, 04:46 PM   #36
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"....... though i hardly think you can compare the intelligence of Hitchens or Dawkins (whether you agree or not) to Sean Hannity, Ann Couler, or Michael Savage........"








sorry Mods........

I couldn't resist!


(and I am a Spiritual person, butnot in any organized religion)
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Old 08-02-2008, 04:27 PM   #37
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Welcome, camiloj! It's good to have you here.
Thanks!
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Old 08-02-2008, 05:56 PM   #38
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i hardly think you can compare the intelligence of Hitchens or Dawkins (whether you agree or not) to Sean Hannity, Ann Couler, or Michael Savage --
So only Bubba hate is dangerous, intellectual hate is ok?

The answer is of coarse to concentrate on the crime(s), with motivation only a mitigating factor in a small minority of cases.
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Old 08-03-2008, 12:51 AM   #39
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So only Bubba hate is dangerous, intellectual hate is ok?
I do find Dawkins very snide about people who have spiritual /or religious beliefs, and I do not like that AT all.
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Old 08-03-2008, 07:42 AM   #40
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Any kind of hate is wrong......even if someone is "uncomfortable" with homosexuality. It doesn't ever justify any acts of violence. Thankfully, I have lived long enough to see that most people are decent and hardworking. As we age, we all have the same needs and problems. Paying rent or mortgage, and hopefully having enough cash left over, for the food store.
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