U2 AND CHINA

STING2 · 03-04-2002, 03:50 PM

It is rumored on youtwo.net that U2 will be playing four shows in China this year. This raised a few questions in my head.

1. After the Tibetan Freedom Festival in 1997, China stated that artist who were involved would not be allowed to sale product in China or come to China. I wonder what has happened since then to change their minds?
2. There are two sides to debate on China, one is about Engagement and the other is about sanctions because of human rights abuses and support for rogue nations. Where does U2 stand? U2s support for human rights and Amnesty International seem to be the opposite of the Chinese Governments view. Why would China allow them to play there?
Would BONO be gagged from saying anything? If the band did make a statement and attacked the Chinese government, would they be arrested?
One has to remember that for right now, the Chinese tour dates are only rumor. I find it strange though that the Chinese government would be open to this, and U2 will definitely take a lot of flack from liberals and liberal groups who want stiff sanctions against China. Just some thoughts and questions. What do you think?

sulawesigirl4 · 03-04-2002, 04:05 PM

arrested? Ummm, not LIKELY. What century do you think we're living in? If Bono did say something to piss off the establishment, probably the only thing that would happen is that U2 would be 'persona non grata' and nicely asked not to come back.

STING2 · 03-04-2002, 04:40 PM

It would not be the first time a rock star was arrested and this is not the UNITED STATES! ITS CHINA!!!! Much of the way china does things is from another century! Look up what they did to a visiting University professor last year!

sulawesigirl4 · 03-04-2002, 04:47 PM

Right. An internationally acclaimed famous rock star from Ireland. No, that wouldn't cause any diplomatic ruckus at all.

Do you think they WANT to lose their trading status and the economic benefits that they have accumulated? I'm sorry, but that scenario is more than ludicrous. Btw, I have had many many friends, business associates, and aquaintances visit, live and work in China, and contrary to popular opinion it isn't quite the repressive hell-hole some people seem to think it is.

STING2 · 03-04-2002, 06:48 PM

A diplomatic ruckus has not stopped China from detaining people before. I remind you of the unwarrented detention of US military personal last spring. Thats great that westerners go to China and see the more well to do cities and other area's and think its wonderful. Few people, especially those on business get to see what goes on behind the scenes. Few also get to see the substantial poverty that is in the countryside.
China is not a democracy and is essentially a police state unless of course you think the massacre at Tiananmen Square of unarmed students was an example of democracy. Over 2,000 students dead.

Lemonite · 03-04-2002, 08:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sulawesigirl4:
Btw, I have had many many friends, business associates, and aquaintances visit, live and work in China, and contrary to popular opinion it isn't quite the repressive hell-hole some people seem to think it is.

And so those Catholics were imprisoned for Shoplifting?...

L.Unplugged

senrab · 03-04-2002, 09:44 PM

Good point.

Quote:

Originally posted by Lemonite:
And so those Catholics were imprisoned for Shoplifting?...

L.Unplugged

zoomerang II · 03-05-2002, 05:06 AM

Ive been to China, and it sounds here like people are brandishing the whole country with one brush. You just can't do it.

Chinese people are wonderful, surprisingly ethnically and culturally diverse (there are over 50 approved / official languages in addition to mandarin) and religious tolerance is reasonable (granted if it is in private). Ok the state meddles in things that wouldn't be acceptable in an otherwise western democracy, but remember the cultural revolution was only 30 to 40 years ago and since then China has come along in leaps and bounds, growing about 10% a year. China is an eastern capitalist country with a slowly merging democratic evolution - I believe that the real reason we aren't seeing immediate democaracy quickly is because of what happened in Russia - bribery is a huge problem in China. When it makes the transition, as it will, the world needs it done peacefully and calmly with all the structural institutions in place to allow an easy transition.

With respect to Tibet the Chinese do have some historical right to parts of Tibet (i'm not saying the 50's invasion, migration policies and cultural impositions have been acceptable) but I do hope that the Dalai Lama and chinese can come to an agreement in their talks.

No china is not America. But it is a very diverse nation that will be the next superpower - and probably rightly so. China was the most culturally and scientifically advanced nation on earth until just a few hundred years ago, and is rightfully finding its feet again after centuries of imperialism, invasion and poverty.
Lets hope the west learns to understand and empathise with it more than it has in the past.

I hope U2 play there. What right have we got in discouraging chinese U2 fans?

christiana · 03-05-2002, 05:24 AM

I wish they'll play here... but I don't think the rumour is true.

brettig · 03-05-2002, 05:33 AM

i prettymuch agree with sula and zoom on this one, China's human rights record is abyssmal but in most cases it is a very Capitalist environment over there with every indication this process is continuing...dunno if i wanna see the Olympics there tho

STING2 · 03-05-2002, 06:53 PM

China is becoming a capitalist country, but there is still way to much state involvement in the economy. I've never heard China having a legit claim to Tibet and if they did, they certainly do not now since what is currently going in Tibet is the gradual extinction of the culture there in addition to mass human rights abuses. China continues to threaten Tawain with invasion. I still don't think you can just sweep under the rug the murder of 2,000 unarmed students in 1989.
China is becoming a more capitalist country. But this does not mean it is becoming more liberal. It continues to threaten countries in the region with a large military build up, that serves no purpose but to simply give it a better offensive capacity against its neighbors. China continues to send weapons to countries that support terrorism, and its been reported that they have just recently help to improve Iraq's communication and airdefense system.
Democracy may be possible one day in China, but the Communist party today shows no signs of giving up its power. In the mean time its prudent to continue to engage China but at the same time keep our guard up. China is still potentially a threat to peace and stability in the region there.
China has made great strides, but it has a long way to go before it becomes a Superpower. Per Capita GDP is still lower than Russia. The volume of international trade that China does is only double that of little Tawain. Many people wrongly assume that China will be a superpower one day because of its large population. If that is so then India is just as competitive. In fact, India will have more people than China by 2050.
If U2 can play there with out any problems then I think that would be great. They certainly may have a lot of fans there considering the huge piracy of western CDs in China. I also hear that its possible that U2 may play other Asian/pacific countries they have not been to yet as well.

03-04-2002, 03:50 PM	#1
STING2 Rock n' Roll Doggie FOB Join Date: Oct 2001 Posts: 8,876 Local Time: 04:13 AM	U2 AND CHINA It is rumored on youtwo.net that U2 will be playing four shows in China this year. This raised a few questions in my head. 1. After the Tibetan Freedom Festival in 1997, China stated that artist who were involved would not be allowed to sale product in China or come to China. I wonder what has happened since then to change their minds? 2. There are two sides to debate on China, one is about Engagement and the other is about sanctions because of human rights abuses and support for rogue nations. Where does U2 stand? U2s support for human rights and Amnesty International seem to be the opposite of the Chinese Governments view. Why would China allow them to play there? Would BONO be gagged from saying anything? If the band did make a statement and attacked the Chinese government, would they be arrested? One has to remember that for right now, the Chinese tour dates are only rumor. I find it strange though that the Chinese government would be open to this, and U2 will definitely take a lot of flack from liberals and liberal groups who want stiff sanctions against China. Just some thoughts and questions. What do you think? __________________

03-04-2002, 04:05 PM	#2
sulawesigirl4 Rock n' Roll Doggie ALL ACCESS Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Virginia Posts: 7,415 Local Time: 11:13 PM	arrested? Ummm, not LIKELY. What century do you think we're living in? If Bono did say something to piss off the establishment, probably the only thing that would happen is that U2 would be 'persona non grata' and nicely asked not to come back. __________________

03-05-2002, 06:53 PM	#11
STING2 Rock n' Roll Doggie FOB Join Date: Oct 2001 Posts: 8,876 Local Time: 04:13 AM	China is becoming a capitalist country, but there is still way to much state involvement in the economy. I've never heard China having a legit claim to Tibet and if they did, they certainly do not now since what is currently going in Tibet is the gradual extinction of the culture there in addition to mass human rights abuses. China continues to threaten Tawain with invasion. I still don't think you can just sweep under the rug the murder of 2,000 unarmed students in 1989. China is becoming a more capitalist country. But this does not mean it is becoming more liberal. It continues to threaten countries in the region with a large military build up, that serves no purpose but to simply give it a better offensive capacity against its neighbors. China continues to send weapons to countries that support terrorism, and its been reported that they have just recently help to improve Iraq's communication and airdefense system. Democracy may be possible one day in China, but the Communist party today shows no signs of giving up its power. In the mean time its prudent to continue to engage China but at the same time keep our guard up. China is still potentially a threat to peace and stability in the region there. China has made great strides, but it has a long way to go before it becomes a Superpower. Per Capita GDP is still lower than Russia. The volume of international trade that China does is only double that of little Tawain. Many people wrongly assume that China will be a superpower one day because of its large population. If that is so then India is just as competitive. In fact, India will have more people than China by 2050. If U2 can play there with out any problems then I think that would be great. They certainly may have a lot of fans there considering the huge piracy of western CDs in China. I also hear that its possible that U2 may play other Asian/pacific countries they have not been to yet as well. __________________

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03-04-2002, 04:40 PM	#3
STING2 Rock n' Roll Doggie FOB Join Date: Oct 2001 Posts: 8,876 Local Time: 04:13 AM	It would not be the first time a rock star was arrested and this is not the UNITED STATES! ITS CHINA!!!! Much of the way china does things is from another century! Look up what they did to a visiting University professor last year!

03-04-2002, 04:47 PM	#4
sulawesigirl4 Rock n' Roll Doggie ALL ACCESS Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Virginia Posts: 7,415 Local Time: 11:13 PM	Right. An internationally acclaimed famous rock star from Ireland. No, that wouldn't cause any diplomatic ruckus at all. Do you think they WANT to lose their trading status and the economic benefits that they have accumulated? I'm sorry, but that scenario is more than ludicrous. Btw, I have had many many friends, business associates, and aquaintances visit, live and work in China, and contrary to popular opinion it isn't quite the repressive hell-hole some people seem to think it is.

03-04-2002, 06:48 PM	#5
STING2 Rock n' Roll Doggie FOB Join Date: Oct 2001 Posts: 8,876 Local Time: 04:13 AM	A diplomatic ruckus has not stopped China from detaining people before. I remind you of the unwarrented detention of US military personal last spring. Thats great that westerners go to China and see the more well to do cities and other area's and think its wonderful. Few people, especially those on business get to see what goes on behind the scenes. Few also get to see the substantial poverty that is in the countryside. China is not a democracy and is essentially a police state unless of course you think the massacre at Tiananmen Square of unarmed students was an example of democracy. Over 2,000 students dead.

03-05-2002, 05:06 AM	#8
zoomerang II War Child Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: melbourne, terra australis Posts: 657 Local Time: 03:13 PM	Ive been to China, and it sounds here like people are brandishing the whole country with one brush. You just can't do it. Chinese people are wonderful, surprisingly ethnically and culturally diverse (there are over 50 approved / official languages in addition to mandarin) and religious tolerance is reasonable (granted if it is in private). Ok the state meddles in things that wouldn't be acceptable in an otherwise western democracy, but remember the cultural revolution was only 30 to 40 years ago and since then China has come along in leaps and bounds, growing about 10% a year. China is an eastern capitalist country with a slowly merging democratic evolution - I believe that the real reason we aren't seeing immediate democaracy quickly is because of what happened in Russia - bribery is a huge problem in China. When it makes the transition, as it will, the world needs it done peacefully and calmly with all the structural institutions in place to allow an easy transition. With respect to Tibet the Chinese do have some historical right to parts of Tibet (i'm not saying the 50's invasion, migration policies and cultural impositions have been acceptable) but I do hope that the Dalai Lama and chinese can come to an agreement in their talks. No china is not America. But it is a very diverse nation that will be the next superpower - and probably rightly so. China was the most culturally and scientifically advanced nation on earth until just a few hundred years ago, and is rightfully finding its feet again after centuries of imperialism, invasion and poverty. Lets hope the west learns to understand and empathise with it more than it has in the past. I hope U2 play there. What right have we got in discouraging chinese U2 fans?

03-05-2002, 05:24 AM	#9
christiana New Yorker Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Hong Kong Posts: 2,703 Local Time: 12:13 PM	I wish they'll play here... but I don't think the rumour is true.

03-05-2002, 05:33 AM	#10
brettig New Yorker Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: heehee, ask george Posts: 3,194 Local Time: 11:13 PM	i prettymuch agree with sula and zoom on this one, China's human rights record is abyssmal but in most cases it is a very Capitalist environment over there with every indication this process is continuing...dunno if i wanna see the Olympics there tho