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Old 04-20-2008, 05:28 PM   #41
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


But this simply doesn't stand true anymore, it's a BS argument. How is your shotgun going to stand up next to a tank? Please enlighten me...
If you think that the approximately 45-50 million households in the United States that own the roughly 200-300 private guns in the country could not take out a tank, you are sorely mistaken. Soooo...I think your arguement is B.S.

Iraq right now is proof that you don't need the most advanced weapons in the world to bog down the most powerful military in the world.


Anyway, going to my original point. I think it's sad when people want to cherry-pick the parts of the Constitution that they like and say the rest are "outdated." It's funny how today the far left will complain that our 4th Amendment or our 8th Amendment or even how our 1st Amendment has been violated by the Bush administration, but then these very same people would voilate our 2nd Amendment at the first possible chance.

Our Founding Fathers were smart enough to include the "Right to Bear Arms" in the Bill of Rights. It has undoubtedly protected our liberties many times.

They were also smart enough to make it possible to amend the constitution. Thankfully the American public is smart enough to still recognize it's importance.
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Old 04-20-2008, 05:50 PM   #42
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I've yet to hear of a tank that was stopped by a handgun. And I don't think it's favourable to teach the public how to build IED's or tankbusters.
On the other hand, that wouldn't be necessary. History has shown how fast knowledge of how to build bombs spreads.
But is it reasonable to think the citizens in America are still needed as a militia, ever fighting against its own military? I would rather say no.

It's pretty weak to dismiss 2nd amendment criticism with referencing other amendments which are understandably viewed in a whole different light. What is the argument against establishing a state church or promotion of a certain religion, which inevitably leads to a considerable infringement of other's personal religious or non-religious freedom? Or what is the argument against excessive fines and bails, or against the abolition of warrantless search etc.?
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Old 04-20-2008, 05:51 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally posted by ImOuttaControl


If you think that the approximately 45-50 million households in the United States that own the roughly 200-300 private guns in the country could not take out a tank, you are sorely mistaken. Soooo...I think your arguement is B.S.

Iraq right now is proof that you don't need the most advanced weapons in the world to bog down the most powerful military in the world.
An occupation and a take over are implemented completely differently therefore not an equal analogy.

But you are right, 200 shotguns might be able to take out A tank, but what about the other several hundred tanks, jets, and weapons our government has access to?

Quote:
Originally posted by ImOuttaControl


Our Founding Fathers were smart enough to include the "Right to Bear Arms" in the Bill of Rights. It has undoubtedly protected our liberties many times.
They were also smart enough to realize society will change and weren't arrogant enough to think they would be able to foresee everything, therefore the document was designed to evolve and capable of change. I think it's sad when some forget this.
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Old 04-20-2008, 07:59 PM   #44
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Originally posted by ImOuttaControl

.. and went to a local gravel pit to shoot.

Dear god. OK. You grew up with this. It's absolutely normal to you. Whatev.


Your comment, re: cherry picking parts of the constitution which are outdated; how is this somehow a negative thing to do? If laws cannot be organic and continually change to adapt as society does, then you're eventually to face more problems than a few guns in the wrong hands.
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Old 04-20-2008, 11:05 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


QFT

add cowboy hats and you have the wild wild west...


First, you need to check your history.

Example, Dodge City had about ten murders from about 1869-1870.

You wanna compare that to a city today?
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Old 04-21-2008, 12:03 AM   #46
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Originally posted by the iron horse

First, you need to check your history.

Example, Dodge City had about ten murders from about 1869-1870.

You wanna compare that to a city today?
First, I didn't mention anything about the murder rate, did I?

Secondly, what was the population?

Talk about missing a point.
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Old 04-21-2008, 06:44 AM   #47
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Originally posted by the iron horse




First, you need to check your history.

Example, Dodge City had about ten murders from about 1869-1870.

You wanna compare that to a city today?
Quote:
Source: Wikipedia
Origins

The first settlement in the area that became Dodge City was Fort Mann. Built by civilians in 1847, Fort Mann was intended to provide protection for travelers on the Santa Fe Trail. Fort Mann collapsed in 1848 after an Indian attack. In 1850, the U.S. Army arrived to provide protection in the region and constructed Fort Atkinson on the old Fort Mann site. The army abandoned Fort Atkinson in 1853. Military forces on the Santa Fe Trail were reestablished further north and east at Fort Larned in 1859, but the area around what would become Dodge City remained vacant until after the Civil War. In 1865, as the Indian Wars in the West began heating up, the army constructed Fort Dodge to assist Fort Larned in providing protection on the Santa Fe Trail. Fort Dodge remained in operation until 1882.

The town of Dodge City can trace its origins to 1871 when rancher Henry J. Sitler built a sod house west of Fort Dodge to oversee his cattle operations in the region. Conveniently located near the Santa Fe Trail and Arkansas River, Sitler's house quickly became a stopping point for travelers. With the Santa Fe Railroad rapidly approaching from the east, others saw the commercial potential of the region. In 1872, just five miles west of Fort Dodge, settlers platted out and founded the town of Dodge City. George M. Hoover established the first bar in a tent to service thirsty soldiers from Fort Dodge. The railroad arrived in September to find a town ready and waiting for business. The early settlers in Dodge City traded in buffalo bones and hides and provided a civilian community for Fort Dodge. However, with the arrival of the railroad, Dodge City soon became involved in the cattle trade.
Population in 1880 (the earliest figure provided): 996 citizens

If you took the murder rate per 100,000 inhabitants and the figure of 1880, which is not really accurate since the town is set to be established only in 1872 and most probably had a lot less inhabitants in 1869/70, you would come to a murder rate of 1,004 per 100,000 inhabitants. So, with figures of that year it would be much higher.
Not even the deadliest US cities of today have a murder rate higher than 100.
And back in 1870 it should be safe to say that everyone had a gun.

But, well, one cannot really compare those times with today, honestly.
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Old 04-21-2008, 08:13 AM   #48
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Facts, don't let them get in your way...
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Old 04-21-2008, 04:08 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally posted by Angela Harlem



Dear god. OK. You grew up with this. It's absolutely normal to you. Whatev.
Is that supposed to be an insult?

I was merely pointing out that the area of the country I live in, it is completely normal for kids to get gun education/safety courses because sport shooting and hunting is not only common but a part of the local culture.
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Old 04-21-2008, 04:35 PM   #50
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Far from an insult. The opposite, in fact. It illustrates where your position on this began. My views aren't based on comfortable familiarity, whereas yours seem to be. You've got to understand that to hear someone say they went shooting at piles of gravel as a child is a rather foreign concept.
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Old 04-21-2008, 05:16 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally posted by Angela Harlem
Far from an insult. The opposite, in fact. It illustrates where your position on this began. My views aren't based on comfortable familiarity, whereas yours seem to be. You've got to understand that to hear someone say they went shooting at piles of gravel as a child is a rather foreign concept.
Okay, thanks for clarifying.

And as far as shooting in gravel pits--that was the "final test" in our gun safety class. Comfortable familiarity is a good way to put it. The only times I have ever been uncomfortable around guns is when there is someone that hasn't been trained to safely use/respect the weapon, which around here is not that many people.
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Old 04-21-2008, 05:48 PM   #52
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Originally posted by ImOuttaControl


Our Founding Fathers were smart enough to include the "Right to Bear Arms" in the Bill of Rights. It has undoubtedly protected our liberties many times.


i've been exposed to plenty of gun culture through my work -- it's weird to me, but i get where it comes from. i know people like to hunt. i know people think that guns are interesting.

but what i don't understand is how the ownership of guns protects our liberties.

could you just say that you think guns are fun and that's why you like the 2nd Amendment? and stop hiding behind philosophical arguments?
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Old 04-21-2008, 05:57 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally posted by ImOuttaControl

The only times I have ever been uncomfortable around guns is when there is someone that hasn't been trained to safely use/respect the weapon, which around here is not that many people.
Probably because you've never been shot at.

I guarantee you that your view of guns tends to change a bit in those circumstances. Or a lot, as the case may be.
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Old 04-21-2008, 06:10 PM   #54
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it seems that a gun is the best way to deprive someone of life, and therefore liberty and certainly the pursuit of happiness.
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Old 04-22-2008, 12:22 PM   #55
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Originally posted by Irvine511




i've been exposed to plenty of gun culture through my work -- it's weird to me, but i get where it comes from. i know people like to hunt. i know people think that guns are interesting.

but what i don't understand is how the ownership of guns protects our liberties.

could you just say that you think guns are fun and that's why you like the 2nd Amendment? and stop hiding behind philosophical arguments?
Guns are fun? Well yes, to me they are. I enjoy hunting and sport shooting. But do I also have a very strong philosophical arguement as well? Absolutely. Not all people are one dimensional.

Neext.
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Old 04-22-2008, 12:23 PM   #56
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Probably because you've never been shot at.

I guarantee you that your view of guns tends to change a bit in those circumstances. Or a lot, as the case may be.

Hmmm...Well considering I have nearly been shot, (within a matter of feet), I think your arguement is pretty much shit.
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Old 04-22-2008, 08:59 PM   #57
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Hmmm...Well considering I have nearly been shot, (within a matter of feet), I think your arguement is pretty much shit.
Nearly being shot and actively being shot AT and seeing people SHOT and killed are two extremely different things.

But I am glad you can remain naive and think it's a shit argument. I wouldn't wish the above scenario on you or on anyone else.
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Old 04-22-2008, 11:26 PM   #58
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Guns are fun? Well yes, to me they are. I enjoy hunting and sport shooting. But do I also have a very strong philosophical arguement as well? Absolutely. Not all people are one dimensional.

Neext.


could you knock the chip off the shoulder and answer the question -- what's the philosophical argument?

haven't seen one yet.
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Old 04-23-2008, 07:53 PM   #59
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" what's the philosophical argument?

haven't seen one yet.


Weapons...

~a rock

~a knife

~a stick

~a pen

~a club

~a piece of glass

~a gun



"what's the philosophical argument?"


evil?
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Old 04-23-2008, 08:03 PM   #60
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Yes, and I could strangle you with this mouse cord, or slowly beat you to death with this keyboard. I've got a fork, a stapler, a metallic ruler, a small LCD tv and a really heavy hole punch within reach as well. Your point?
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