Trump Part VIII - Page 20 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 04-04-2017, 11:42 AM   #381
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
mama cass's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 6,293
Local Time: 10:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irvine511 View Post
there is a danger of overstating Russian influence via social media
well, Russia is blatantly meddling in the French presidential elections - Putin recently met with Le Pen and has loaned her millions for her campaign

eta, would be interested to hear Vlad's perspective on that...
__________________

mama cass is offline  
Old 04-04-2017, 12:26 PM   #382
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
BEAL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: San Diego
Posts: 6,516
Local Time: 09:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irvine511 View Post
i still don't know what neoliberalism means. or why Adrian Chen is more informed than actual testimony in front of Congress:



keep in mind, the "Bernie Bros" were victims in all this -- they were as manipulated as any on the right. this isn't to say that there was anything wrong with candidate Sanders, or that they were wrong to prefer his message, or even to think that he would be a more effective general election candidate.

but it is to say that the often shocking depth of hatred of Mrs. Clinton from inside the deep left of her own party was capitalized upon and stoked by the Russians in order to hurt her in the general election. it would have happened to any candidate in the general. can you imagine what the Russians would have done to Bernie had he been the candidate? i also wonder what would have happened with the PUMAs from 2008 and Obama had social media been as pervasive back them.

there is a danger of overstating Russian influence via social media, and that it won't ever change the core components of any campaign. but when a candidate won by 80,000 votes spread over 3 states, while at the same time losing the national popular vote by 3,000,000, i don't think we actually can overstate the fact that such influence/meddling likely was enough to depress turnout on one side (didn't we just discuss that a few pages back?) and fire it up on the other.
Because FEELINGS are more important than FACTS now. Intuition is more important than investigation.

While skepticism is healthy in regards to discovering the truth, we do need some baseline for which the truth can be laid upon. The government isn't always evil. It isn't always in the pocket of the rich. We do have laws, and if this guy is saying that these officials are all lying under oath, then we have nothing to believe anymore.

It's OK to have some faith that the system can and does work for the people. I'm as frustrated by the daily bullshit out of Trump as anyone, but we patience is needed. Regardless if he gets thrown out, or stays in office.
__________________

BEAL is offline  
Old 04-04-2017, 02:37 PM   #383
Blue Crack Distributor
 
corianderstem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Seattle
Posts: 64,498
Local Time: 02:51 PM
Hey, there's a new surprise bit added to Trump's trust that's (LOL) meant to take care of this whole pesky "conflict of interest" thing (LOL). It says that he can take funds from his businesses at any time without having to disclose it.

Money & Power over Ethics & Law.

Keep up the good baffling work, People Still Supporting Trump.

http://www.businessinsider.com/propu...r+-+Politix%29
corianderstem is offline  
Old 04-04-2017, 08:54 PM   #384
Blue Crack Distributor
 
Headache in a Suitcase's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: DC
Posts: 68,205
Local Time: 04:51 PM
Trump is awful.

Have a Pepsi.

Everything's great.
Headache in a Suitcase is online now  
Old 04-04-2017, 09:35 PM   #385
Blue Crack Addict
 
Vlad n U 2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 28,370
Local Time: 08:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diemen View Post
Productive dialogue.
A welcome change from the preceding few pages.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BVS View Post
So we're just going to become the bobsagett of the left?

Cool
How on earth is this even a reasonable response? For fuck's sake, BVS.

Surely you could understand why someone like PFan is alienated from this section of Interference?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mama cass View Post
well, Russia is blatantly meddling in the French presidential elections - Putin recently met with Le Pen and has loaned her millions for her campaign

eta, would be interested to hear Vlad's perspective on that...
I don't doubt that it's in the interest in the Russian state for Le Pen to win, I'm not exactly sure what you want me to say ...
Vlad n U 2 is offline  
Old 04-04-2017, 09:52 PM   #386
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 41,232
Local Time: 04:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vlad n U 2 View Post



How on earth is this even a reasonable response? For fuck's sake, BVS.

Surely you could understand why someone like PFan is alienated from this section of Interference?




How can I understand? Someone offers tweets as backup and 'fuck yous' for retorts. How is that any different than the other side?

Are we suppose to overlook the lack of true discussion and unwillingness to engage because we align more with their ideology?

Look, for the most part pfan and I align in our thinking, but am I suppose to just turn a blind eye on the fact that his posting has turned into the style of ih and bobsagett? He's more anger and tweets than actual substance.

It saddens me, but if we allow that then we are truly the echo chamber that the right has labeled us.
BVS is online now  
Old 04-04-2017, 11:37 PM   #387
Paper Gods
Forum Administrator
 
KhanadaRhodes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: a vampire in the limousine
Posts: 60,685
Local Time: 03:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vlad n U 2 View Post
A welcome change from the preceding few pages.
yep. i'm disgusted with both parties. nothing anyone can say can change my mind. the wounds are too fresh and i'm too angry about it. i won't post in here anymore unless it's in some sort of mod/admin capacity, which is a shame. oh well, that's life.
__________________
KhanadaRhodes is offline  
Old 04-05-2017, 03:32 AM   #388
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
mama cass's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 6,293
Local Time: 10:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vlad n U 2 View Post
I don't doubt that it's in the interest in the Russian state for Le Pen to win, I'm not exactly sure what you want me to say ...
well, i was just interested to hear your thoughts on it really - wasn't a trick question or anything lol

i think, to some extent, there are clearly some reasons for the anti-Putin paranoia - and with Le Pen it's just blatant, it's not all just a big conspiracy... have you looked at the Cambridge Analytica thing? seems to be very far-reaching and intrusive...
mama cass is offline  
Old 04-05-2017, 08:23 AM   #389
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 33,471
Local Time: 05:51 PM
Trump at 34% approval. That's some late 2nd term W territory and it's barely been 2 months. Sad!
Irvine511 is offline  
Old 04-05-2017, 08:45 AM   #390
Blue Crack Addict
 
PhilsFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: South Philadelphia
Posts: 19,218
Local Time: 05:51 PM
I had a lengthy post in response to some of what was thrown at me above but Interference ate it. So I'll instead link to this. That's right guys ... it's time for some game theory.

Trump Conspiracy Tweetstorms Are The Infowars Of The Left

Quote:
The explanation that we’re living in a spy novel absolves Democrats of responsibility for the election results. Garland’s view fits perfectly with how some liberals would prefer to see the world: that leftists and right-wingers alike are nothing more than useful idiots of an all-knowing Putin, Hillary Clinton’s campaign couldn’t have done anything differently (like, say, go to Wisconsin), and, at its core, America is great because America is good. It is wish-fulfillment in its purest form.
PhilsFan is offline  
Old 04-05-2017, 09:00 AM   #391
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 41,232
Local Time: 04:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilsFan View Post
I had a lengthy post in response to some of what was thrown at me above but Interference ate it. So I'll instead link to this. That's right guys ... it's time for some game theory.

Trump Conspiracy Tweetstorms Are The Infowars Of The Left


If there are any that believe a meddling was the only reason Hillary lost, that it absolves anything, and there was nothing else she could have done can join the ranks of the right and left that fall for fake news.

Anyone who puts ideology over fact, right or left, shouldn't be voting. They are the ones that gave us Trump.
BVS is online now  
Old 04-05-2017, 09:06 AM   #392
Blue Crack Addict
 
PhilsFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: South Philadelphia
Posts: 19,218
Local Time: 05:51 PM
There are many! And they're almost all establishment/pundit class Democrats. Many of them spout the same stuff that I see in this thread decrying leftists.
PhilsFan is offline  
Old 04-05-2017, 09:22 AM   #393
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 41,232
Local Time: 04:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilsFan View Post
There are many! And they're almost all establishment/pundit class Democrats. Many of them spout the same stuff that I see in this thread decrying leftists.


I know they exist, I'm not denying that.

But I'm still not convinced there was any big "decrying leftists" in here.
BVS is online now  
Old 04-05-2017, 09:22 AM   #394
Blue Crack Addict
 
anitram's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: NY
Posts: 18,918
Local Time: 05:51 PM
Unfortunately the reality of US politics is that "leftists" probably as defined by Pfan have zero chance of governing similarly to how the freedom caucus has little chance of governing. Until and unless there is a multi-party system which appears to be a non-starter for the establishment for obvious reasons but even more disappointingly a non-starter for many establishment type voters, you are going to be stuck with what you have now. And in that context, it's foolish to allow perfect to be the enemy of good.

Even in the scenario where you have a billionaire (absolute requirement) like Bloomberg or somebody running as an independent candidate for president, it won't really matter so long as the Congress is made up of two parties which (a) hate each other and (b) have little to no incentive to help an independent president achieve anything for which they may not personally get credit.

I understand to an extent American reticence about parliamentary democracies and how they can devolve into endless elections and fragile coalitions which make governance hard, but truthfully, how good is the governance system in the US now? It's one party in power and the other obstructing.
anitram is offline  
Old 04-05-2017, 09:40 AM   #395
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 41,232
Local Time: 04:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by anitram View Post
And in that context, it's foolish to allow perfect to be the enemy of good.


BVS is online now  
Old 04-05-2017, 10:38 AM   #396
Blue Crack Distributor
 
Headache in a Suitcase's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: DC
Posts: 68,205
Local Time: 04:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilsFan View Post
I had a lengthy post in response to some of what was thrown at me above but Interference ate it. So I'll instead link to this. That's right guys ... it's time for some game theory.

Trump Conspiracy Tweetstorms Are The Infowars Of The Left
it's not as simple as "it's all the russian's fault" just like it's not as simple as "she was a terrible candidate."

i don't even know if anyone here even puts the russian interference as the prime reason for her defeat. outrage at a presidential candidate (and no potus) colluding with a foreign adversary does not automatically mean that you feel clinton was all bunnies and rainbows.

she was a flawed candidate from day one. i don't think you can point to a single candidate on either side of the election who wasn't flawed. even my ideal candidate in mike bloomberg has serious issues that he would have to answer to and address - from stop and frisk to income equality.

i simply have a few major problems with the anti-Hillary, anyone else would have beat trump line of thought.

1) flawed candidate does not mean she was a bad candidate. the woman was highly qualified for the job, probably more qualified than her husband was when he was elected. she was a multi-term senator from one of the largest states in the nation, and a highly respected secretary of state. her and her husband's foundation was among the most highly respected and well run non-profits in the world, and produced real, meaningful change in some of the poorest undeveloped regions of the world. this doesn't change that she had faults, that she had issues connecting with people, that her "deplorable" comment was incredibly harmful with the section of the electorate that ultimately sunk her, nor does it change that the democratic party misjudged the influence of the rural white vote in the rust belt region, nor does it hide the fact that the DNC has largely ignored the plight of white rural Americans in the rust belt and Appalachia, and has done next to nothing on the public stage to help fight the incredible opiate addiction problem in that region. but...

2) Clinton was dominating every major poll at the time the Comey letter came out. the letter brought her numbers back down to within the margin of error. it's hardly crazy to believe that she would have won, probably be a comfortable margin, if not for the release of the letter. that doesn't change that she had flaws, nor does it take her and the DNC off the hook for ignoring the rust belt. but 10 days out from election day, despite all the faults, she held a dominating lead. one event changed that.

3) there is no way to know how Sanders would have performed when finally faced with the spotlight and vetting that comes from being on the big stage. clinton never fully attacked his weak points during the debates, for fear of alienating his base. he never faced the public scrutiny she did. it's impossible to know how he would have fared once the spotlight was fully on him. parts of the republican war book on sanders have leaked out, and it wasn't pretty. could he have survived through that? maybe. faced up against trump? yea, maybe he could. i think the best argument for Sanders over Clinton was that there would have been no Sanders Comey letter, but it's impossible to know if there wouldn't have been something else.
Headache in a Suitcase is online now  
Old 04-05-2017, 10:43 AM   #397
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
BEAL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: San Diego
Posts: 6,516
Local Time: 09:51 PM
I think a lot of the frustrations in here are because of the lack of solutions proposed by someone like Bernie. I think 99% of us in here would like to see universal health coverage.

But how do we accomplish that? Are we OK with higher taxes? Are we OK with regulations on corporations causing some unemployment (right or wrong on the corporation doing so).

When Bernie was asked how he would break up the banks, he said he didn't know.

This is a very diverse nation, and IMO I feel like we need to govern in the middle. Those that don't feel something like the government shouldn't be involved in healthcare has a right to voice that opinion, and I would like to hear it....assuming it's not the same old talking points. And vice versa from the other side. Denmark being the example doesn't cut it either. I don't feel it's fair to compare nordic countries to the USA

It would just be nice to have discussions on solutions, and to find middle ground when the answers just aren't so obvious or easy.
BEAL is offline  
Old 04-05-2017, 10:50 AM   #398
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
BEAL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: San Diego
Posts: 6,516
Local Time: 09:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Headache in a Suitcase View Post
it's not as simple as "it's all the russian's fault" just like it's not as simple as "she was a terrible candidate."

i don't even know if anyone here even puts the russian interference as the prime reason for her defeat. outrage at a presidential candidate (and no potus) colluding with a foreign adversary does not automatically mean that you feel clinton was all bunnies and rainbows.

she was a flawed candidate from day one. i don't think you can point to a single candidate on either side of the election who wasn't flawed. even my ideal candidate in mike bloomberg has serious issues that he would have to answer to and address - from stop and frisk to income equality.

i simply have a few major problems with the anti-Hillary, anyone else would have beat trump line of thought.

1) flawed candidate does not mean she was a bad candidate. the woman was highly qualified for the job, probably more qualified than her husband was when he was elected. she was a multi-term senator from one of the largest states in the nation, and a highly respected secretary of state. her and her husband's foundation was among the most highly respected and well run non-profits in the world, and produced real, meaningful change in some of the poorest undeveloped regions of the world. this doesn't change that she had faults, that she had issues connecting with people, that her "deplorable" comment was incredibly harmful with the section of the electorate that ultimately sunk her, nor does it change that the democratic party misjudged the influence of the rural white vote in the rust belt region, nor does it hide the fact that the DNC has largely ignored the plight of white rural Americans in the rust belt and Appalachia, and has done next to nothing on the public stage to help fight the incredible opiate addiction problem in that region. but...

2) Clinton was dominating every major poll at the time the Comey letter came out. the letter brought her numbers back down to within the margin of error. it's hardly crazy to believe that she would have won, probably be a comfortable margin, if not for the release of the letter. that doesn't change that she had flaws, nor does it take her and the DNC off the hook for ignoring the rust belt. but 10 days out from election day, despite all the faults, she held a dominating lead. one event changed that.

3) there is no way to know how Sanders would have performed when finally faced with the spotlight and vetting that comes from being on the big stage. clinton never fully attacked his weak points during the debates, for fear of alienating his base. he never faced the public scrutiny she did. it's impossible to know how he would have fared once the spotlight was fully on him. parts of the republican war book on sanders have leaked out, and it wasn't pretty. could he have survived through that? maybe. faced up against trump? yea, maybe he could. i think the best argument for Sanders over Clinton was that there would have been no Sanders Comey letter, but it's impossible to know if there wouldn't have been something else.
For all her faults, just imagine how things would be different right about now. Of course the GOP would be opening up their 4 billionth investigation into Bengazhi and emails, but the nation can survive that.

The only part I could see being about the same is Foreign Affairs/Policy. North Korea would still be doing stupid shit. Syria and Middle East would still be a mess. The difference in my head at least is we'd not be on the verge of going to war in those countries.

But the level of complete bullshit/scandals coming out daily from a Clinton administration would be much, much smaller (aside from the Right Wing echo chamber).

I doubt Clinton would have a 34% approval rating too
BEAL is offline  
Old 04-05-2017, 12:32 PM   #399
Self-righteous bullshitter
 
BoMac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Soviet Canuckistan — Socialist paradise
Posts: 16,900
Local Time: 06:51 PM
Bannon is out of the National Security Council.
__________________

BoMac is offline  
Old 04-05-2017, 12:48 PM   #400
Rock n' Roll Doggie
ALL ACCESS
 
womanfish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: moons of Zooropa
Posts: 7,233
Local Time: 09:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irvine511 View Post
i still don't know what neoliberalism means. or why Adrian Chen is more informed than actual testimony in front of Congress:



keep in mind, the "Bernie Bros" were victims in all this -- they were as manipulated as any on the right. this isn't to say that there was anything wrong with candidate Sanders, or that they were wrong to prefer his message, or even to think that he would be a more effective general election candidate.
I think you are being far too kind. How were Bernie Bros victims??? Everyone was presented with the same information. Berniebots just were stupid and naive enough to believe it instead of doing actual fact checking.

I was one that would present actual facts to these types of people, but anything that was contrary to their propaganda was dismissed and anyone who disagreed was a neo-liberal, oligarch, shill, paid troll, etc...

Bernie bros were most certainly not the victims, reasonable people that looked for facts about all candidates were the victims.
__________________

womanfish is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:51 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com
×