Trump Part VIII

[Irvine511]

I hear you, but honestly the blame rests on the candidate. If you look at the Democratic turnout numbers, they were in decline during the primaries as well. All due to lack of enthusiasm for the presumptive nominee. The numbers rebounded somewhat but that was only because of the pro-Bernie/anti-Hillary factions who infused all the energy into the process. Those same people then stayed home on November 8.

Cant blame that on Comey, or the Russians, etc.

She had problems, no question. She also faced a totally unique kind of opposition. And she won the popular vote by 3m. That can't be overlooked.

I also have nothing more to add to this discussion as I feel like we've talked it to death since November.

 

[bono_212]

She had problems, no question. She also faced a totally unique kind of opposition. And she won the popular vote by 3m. That can't be overlooked.

I also have nothing more to add to this discussion as I feel like we've talked it to death since November.

Hence my post.

 

[Iggy Fizz]

She had problems, no question. She also faced a totally unique kind of opposition. And she won the popular vote by 3m. That can't be overlooked.

I also have nothing more to add to this discussion as I feel like we've talked it to death since November.

But I have only been here since March

OK, I hear ya.

Peace.

 

[Irvine511]

Fair enough.

 

[anitram]

I'm just trying to think in probabilities here. I think you and I can both agree that the filibuster has literally zero chance of actually working against Gorsuch, right? So, unless it has a downright negative chance of working against the (potentially much worse, and much more impactful) Trump nominee, what possible incentive do we have to use the filibuster now, other than senseless projection of anger?

Because if the filibuster has no chance working now, it will equally have NO chance working down the road because McConnell will get rid of it.

So it's meaningless, and at a minimum we should require McConnell to own killing it.

 

[Vlad n U 2]

Have I gone so far down the rabbit hole of anti-Trumpism that my first thought when I heard of this St Petersburg attack was false flag?

To put it respectfully, it would reflect pretty poorly on you if you did.

 

[nbelcik]

It's very dispiriting that many on the left are espousing Infowars-style conspiracy theories about Russia. They definitely ran a disinformation campaign and tried to swing the election for Trump. It's also confirmed that members of Trump's campaign met with Russian officials, unfortunately there's no hard evidence that they were coordinating. I desperately want these Russian rumors to be true, but those of us on the left can't fall into the same conspiratorial way of thinking that those on the right often fall into. We're supposed to be better than that.

 

[Vlad n U 2]

It's very dispiriting that many on the left are espousing Infowars-style conspiracy theories about Russia. They definitely ran a disinformation campaign and tried to swing the election for Trump. It's also confirmed that members of Trump's campaign met with Russian officials, unfortunately there's no hard evidence that they were coordinating. I desperately want these Russian rumors to be true, but those of us on the left can't fall into the same conspiratorial way of thinking that those on the right often fall into. We're supposed to be better than that.

Wanted to add that there is a very necessary distinction to be made with regard to leftists and liberals (and yes this is applicable in a US context).

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

To put it respectfully, it would reflect pretty poorly on you if you did.

Oh by all means, don't be so respectful...

https://www.rt.com/news/383363-petersburg-blast-false-flag-theories/


It's hardly a shocking thought, so much as the Russian government's propognda machine was quick to deny it, not to mention that the September '99 bombings are widely thought to have been just that as well.

I'm not saying I believe these ones to be a false flag. But with Russia, the thought isn't insane.

 

[Vlad n U 2]

I'm aware of the '99 bombings - I just believe it's very dangerous to entertain the thought of a false flag every single time such a tragic event occurs, and often immediately after.

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

I'm aware of the '99 bombings - I just believe it's very dangerous to entertain the thought of a false flag every single time such a tragic event occurs, and often immediately after.

I have never seen an event and thought that prior to this - and I even questioned whether my own thought process was slanted in my post. But hey, thanks again ?

 

[Vlad n U 2]

No worries, mate. Happy to help.

 

[PhilsFan]

I'm sure the Russians will be hard at work playing the leftist base as unwitting tools in yet another disinformation campaign.

Now I remember why I left this forum!

 

[Irvine511]

Don't take my word for it.

https://www.google.com/amp/www.raws...nformation-campaign-senate-intel-witness/amp/

 

[Vlad n U 2]

Now I remember why I left this forum!

I only venture into FYM sporadically now but every time I do it seems like it's stuck in a loop of tired discourse.

 

[PhilsFan]

don't take my word for it.

https://www.google.com/amp/www.raws...nformation-campaign-senate-intel-witness/amp/

[tweet]848590300213915648[/tweet]

 

[PhilsFan]

Fuck neoliberalism, and fuck the Democratic Party.

 

[Diemen]

Productive dialogue.

 

[BVS]

[tweet]848590300213915648[/tweet]

Fuck neoliberalism, and fuck the Democratic Party.

So we're just going to become the bobsagett of the left?

Cool

 

[Irvine511]

i still don't know what neoliberalism means. or why Adrian Chen is more informed than actual testimony in front of Congress:

“Senator, I think what they were trying to do was drive a wedge within the Democratic Party between the Clinton group and the Sanders group,” said Alexander. “And then in our nation between Republicans and Democrats.”

Supporters of Vermont Sen. Bernie Sanders (I) reported earlier this month that during the 2016 election, their social media feeds and pro-Sanders Facebook groups were inundated with what they now believe were Russian bots spewing anti-Hillary memes including fake news stories about Clinton using a body double and murdering her ideological opponents. Over time the anti-Clinton online faction became known by the nickname “Bernie Bros.”

On Thursday morning, counterterrorism expert Clinton Watts told the Senate Committee that Russia is still carrying out cyber-operations against the country. Russia, he said, floods Twitter with bots linking to conspiracy theories that will appeal to Trump at times when the president is likely to be online.

keep in mind, the "Bernie Bros" were victims in all this -- they were as manipulated as any on the right. this isn't to say that there was anything wrong with candidate Sanders, or that they were wrong to prefer his message, or even to think that he would be a more effective general election candidate.

but it is to say that the often shocking depth of hatred of Mrs. Clinton from inside the deep left of her own party was capitalized upon and stoked by the Russians in order to hurt her in the general election. it would have happened to any candidate in the general. can you imagine what the Russians would have done to Bernie had he been the candidate? i also wonder what would have happened with the PUMAs from 2008 and Obama had social media been as pervasive back them.

there is a danger of overstating Russian influence via social media, and that it won't ever change the core components of any campaign. but when a candidate won by 80,000 votes spread over 3 states, while at the same time losing the national popular vote by 3,000,000, i don't think we actually can overstate the fact that such influence/meddling likely was enough to depress turnout on one side (didn't we just discuss that a few pages back?) and fire it up on the other.

 

[mama cass]

there is a danger of overstating Russian influence via social media

well, Russia is blatantly meddling in the French presidential elections - Putin recently met with Le Pen and has loaned her millions for her campaign

eta, would be interested to hear Vlad's perspective on that...

 

[BEAL]

i still don't know what neoliberalism means. or why Adrian Chen is more informed than actual testimony in front of Congress:



keep in mind, the "Bernie Bros" were victims in all this -- they were as manipulated as any on the right. this isn't to say that there was anything wrong with candidate Sanders, or that they were wrong to prefer his message, or even to think that he would be a more effective general election candidate.

but it is to say that the often shocking depth of hatred of Mrs. Clinton from inside the deep left of her own party was capitalized upon and stoked by the Russians in order to hurt her in the general election. it would have happened to any candidate in the general. can you imagine what the Russians would have done to Bernie had he been the candidate? i also wonder what would have happened with the PUMAs from 2008 and Obama had social media been as pervasive back them.

there is a danger of overstating Russian influence via social media, and that it won't ever change the core components of any campaign. but when a candidate won by 80,000 votes spread over 3 states, while at the same time losing the national popular vote by 3,000,000, i don't think we actually can overstate the fact that such influence/meddling likely was enough to depress turnout on one side (didn't we just discuss that a few pages back?) and fire it up on the other.

Because FEELINGS are more important than FACTS now. Intuition is more important than investigation.

While skepticism is healthy in regards to discovering the truth, we do need some baseline for which the truth can be laid upon. The government isn't always evil. It isn't always in the pocket of the rich. We do have laws, and if this guy is saying that these officials are all lying under oath, then we have nothing to believe anymore.

It's OK to have some faith that the system can and does work for the people. I'm as frustrated by the daily bullshit out of Trump as anyone, but we patience is needed. Regardless if he gets thrown out, or stays in office.

 

[corianderstem]

Hey, there's a new surprise bit added to Trump's trust that's (LOL) meant to take care of this whole pesky "conflict of interest" thing (LOL). It says that he can take funds from his businesses at any time without having to disclose it.

Money & Power over Ethics & Law.

Keep up the good baffling work, People Still Supporting Trump.

http://www.businessinsider.com/prop...insider/politics+(Business+Insider+-+Politix)

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

Trump is awful.

Have a Pepsi.

Everything's great.

 

[Vlad n U 2]

Productive dialogue.

A welcome change from the preceding few pages.

So we're just going to become the bobsagett of the left?

Cool

How on earth is this even a reasonable response? For fuck's sake, BVS.

Surely you could understand why someone like PFan is alienated from this section of Interference?

well, Russia is blatantly meddling in the French presidential elections - Putin recently met with Le Pen and has loaned her millions for her campaign

eta, would be interested to hear Vlad's perspective on that...

I don't doubt that it's in the interest in the Russian state for Le Pen to win, I'm not exactly sure what you want me to say ...

 

[BVS]

How on earth is this even a reasonable response? For fuck's sake, BVS.

Surely you could understand why someone like PFan is alienated from this section of Interference?

How can I understand? Someone offers tweets as backup and 'fuck yous' for retorts. How is that any different than the other side?

Are we suppose to overlook the lack of true discussion and unwillingness to engage because we align more with their ideology?

Look, for the most part pfan and I align in our thinking, but am I suppose to just turn a blind eye on the fact that his posting has turned into the style of ih and bobsagett? He's more anger and tweets than actual substance.

It saddens me, but if we allow that then we are truly the echo chamber that the right has labeled us.

 

[KhanadaRhodes]

A welcome change from the preceding few pages.

yep. i'm disgusted with both parties. nothing anyone can say can change my mind. the wounds are too fresh and i'm too angry about it. i won't post in here anymore unless it's in some sort of mod/admin capacity, which is a shame. oh well, that's life.

 

[mama cass]

I don't doubt that it's in the interest in the Russian state for Le Pen to win, I'm not exactly sure what you want me to say ...

well, i was just interested to hear your thoughts on it really - wasn't a trick question or anything lol

i think, to some extent, there are clearly some reasons for the anti-Putin paranoia - and with Le Pen it's just blatant, it's not all just a big conspiracy... have you looked at the Cambridge Analytica thing? seems to be very far-reaching and intrusive...

 

[Irvine511]

Trump at 34% approval. That's some late 2nd term W territory and it's barely been 2 months. Sad!

 

[PhilsFan]

I had a lengthy post in response to some of what was thrown at me above but Interference ate it. So I'll instead link to this. That's right guys ... it's time for some game theory.

Trump Conspiracy Tweetstorms Are The Infowars Of The Left

The explanation that we’re living in a spy novel absolves Democrats of responsibility for the election results. Garland’s view fits perfectly with how some liberals would prefer to see the world: that leftists and right-wingers alike are nothing more than useful idiots of an all-knowing Putin, Hillary Clinton’s campaign couldn’t have done anything differently (like, say, go to Wisconsin), and, at its core, America is great because America is good. It is wish-fulfillment in its purest form.