Trump General Discussion VI

[bloodysunday972]

I would argue that bombing the shit out of other countries constantly for decades has had way more impact than a religious text.

Actually believe it or not what you said was right out of a movie that came out in 1990 Called Navy Seals. The scene is the interviewer is interviewing the head of a terror group of out Lebanon and he says something to extent of "You cannot shell our cities and talk about peace. You cannot kill a mans family and talk about human rights."

You are right that foreign policy does play a huge part in this discussion though.

Just ironic that sometimes film and reality do sync sometimes.

 

[bloodysunday972]

sooooooo you mean exactly what we were doing before this asinine executive order was signed?





there appears to be only one side who's lost that point... and here's a hint, his name rhymes with Ronald Dump.

I disagreed with how the order was rolled out. I don't have 100% issue with it but he should have waited and talked to various agencies on what could be done to make vetting more efficient first.

 

[womanfish]

McCain is and has always been disgusting trash, you only have yourself to blame if you thought otherwise.

 

[Babydoll]

What is it that you think is radicalizing people?

I wonder that too.

Religion & Foreign policy of various western nations. Often they go hand in hand.

If you look at Osama Bin Laden's views we became his enemy the second we took up the Kingdom Of Saudi Arabia's request to station troops there. Something about Infidels on Muslim Lands or something like that....

Ah ok, here is an answer. What is it about the religion though? what do you know of Islam besides the 'I wouldn't trust them, because most are terrorists?' (I know it's an exaggeration but there is some truth to it.)

I would argue that bombing the shit out of other countries constantly for decades has had way more impact than a religious text.

This.

I disagreed with how the order was rolled out. I don't have 100% issue with it but he should have waited and talked to various agencies on what could be done to make vetting more efficient first.

And this is exactly what the ISIS idiots want. By creating more hate, you create more hate. It's a vicious circle. By distrusting all from those countries, you create more from other countries who will hate this order.

You're making it seem as if ISIS was an official group with card-carrying members. It is an ideology, not a club. You don't have to run off to Syria and train for months to support their beliefs. There has been an online campaign where they put out a worldwide call for jihad. THAT is what they are taking credit for. They are somehow inspiring people living in several countries they cannot reach to act on their behalf.

The problem is not going to go away by restricting immigration predominantly Muslim countries, nor even getting rid a few of these kids. And yes I say kids because the average age is between 16-25, and because ISIS is mostly made up of disgruntled, drunk petty criminals who are dissatisfied with their way of life, feel misunderstood, etc and then join this group because it gives them a sense of purpose. Give some angsty teenager a new job offer offering them money, guns and girls and it's not hard to see why many join.

 

[PhilsFan]

Actually believe it or not what you said was right out of a movie that came out in 1990 Called Navy Seals. The scene is the interviewer is interviewing the head of a terror group of out Lebanon and he says something to extent of "You cannot shell our cities and talk about peace. You cannot kill a mans family and talk about human rights."

You are right that foreign policy does play a huge part in this discussion though.

Just ironic that sometimes film and reality do sync sometimes.

I'm glad that we see eye to eye on this! I think it's good that there is common ground. I think it is an important point that many often forget or do not understand.

Do you think Donald Trump agrees with us? Washington Republicans?

 

[womanfish]

This is painful to watch. Sanders makes Cruz look intelligent. Sanders, I agree with most of your moral compass, I love your passion, and you have some very charismatic moments, but for fuck sake learn some basic economic theories and practices. This is why you are where you are.

pretty much sums up why i dropped my Bernie support halfway through the primaries in a nutshell...

 

[Salome]

I'm so curious why Trumpeezy and Trumpeters refer to the making the US great 'again.' Which exact great time period are they referring to?

As greatness isn't really objective, you could argue that the best way to measure it is by assessing whether others think you are great.
Ironically enough Trump's America will then never be considered great.
As its president is a lying, racist, misogynistic man-child.

 

[PhilsFan]

pretty much sums up why i dropped my Bernie support halfway through the primaries in a nutshell...

I think you guys mistake your disagreement with his economic policy for him not understanding economic policy.

 

[anitram]

Yeah I have to say, I was a Hillary supporter but I don't think that Bernie Sanders came across as ignorant on policy at all last night.

 

[womanfish]

I think you guys mistake your disagreement with his economic policy for him not understanding economic policy.

No, i don't believe he's ignorant of economic policy, but if you're standing up there with Cruz who can talk his way around pretty much anything, and throw out a torrent of bullshit that is lapped up by conservatives and people who actually don't know much about economic policy (90% of Americans) then you need to come back with solid numbers on how things are going to work.

I think the majority of Americans do want healthcare to be a right, cause its something that touches all of us, at least the upper middle class down. We all have struggled to pay medical bills, have medical debt, have been unable to pay for prescriptions, etc...

But just saying, it should be a right, and its not, it's too expensive, etc... doesn't give people answers or solutions. I totally agreed with Bernie's great point of "access doesn't mean anything if you can't afford it"
That's great, now lay out a plan that shows how we can let everyone afford it.

 

[anitram]

I've offered before to answer questions about the Canadian healthcare system (of which I tend to be probably more critical than your average Canadian) and found that among some Republican posters here their notions of what we go through are completely devoid of reality. Ted Cruz is a lying sack of crap and repeats many of these, so it's no wonder.

 

[LuckyNumber7]

I can say, from the U.K. perspective, that the health system here is miles upon miles better. I can't speak for major surgeries. Aside from that...i t does have all the downfalls noted by Cruz. You wait. Sometimes you get turned aside. The whole 8 hour ambulance thing? Yes, if your situation isn't dire, indeed they might make you wait. Whatever example he shared was quite an anomaly.

The bottom line though? People here get the care they need. There's no fear of getting care. People go to the hospital if they need to go to the hospital. No second guessing. The lines are no longer than in the US. The system here downright works better, even if it's not perfect.

 

[BVS]

I think you guys mistake your disagreement with his economic policy for him not understanding economic policy.

No, it was as if he was befuddled; why couldn't he just tell a small business owner that they would have to raise their prices or cut wages? His answer was just "I believe a business with 50 or more needs to provide healthcare."

Either tell us you understand that prices will go up, or offer me a solution. Don't just tell me 'you believe'. That's always been my main issue with him.

 

[womanfish]

No, it was as if he was befuddled; why couldn't he just tell a small business owner that they would have to raise their prices or cut wages? His answer was just "I believe a business with 50 or more needs to provide healthcare."

Either tell us you understand that prices will go up, or offer me a solution. Don't just tell me 'you believe'. That's always been my main issue with him.

Hallelujah!! Just a hurdle i could never get over with him. I don't care how many damn sparrows land on your podium. Give me some specifics man.

 

[TheFox]

This wouldn't be Trump using his position to help a family business interest would it?! There's no way this can be legal!


https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/829356871848951809

 

[BoMac]

You can find common ground as far as letting immigrants in while vetting the extremists out.

The issue now more and more are people who are born here who are converted to radicalism.
That does seem to be one aspect that in this debate about migrants people have forgotten about.

You mean like the angry, white men who get radicalized online and have committed the vast majority of mass shootings? Like the man in Quebec City who went from being an online troll spewing xenophobic, Islamophobic comments to killing six Muslim men while they peacefully worshiped?

 

[bloodysunday972]

Babydoll.

Back on the Islam part of the discussion as someone who is a Westerner when you look at quotes like this it does put you on edge.

I would very much like for someone who is a moderate to explain these passages to me in context.
Now that being said the bible and the Quran are alike in a lot of ways as with the Quran you can see where the Prophet's teachings change. Much like the old testament vs new.

Quran (4:11) - (Inheritance) "The male shall have the equal of the portion of two females"

Quran (2:223) - "Your wives are as a tilth unto you; so approach your tilth when or how ye will..." A man has dominion over his wives' bodies as he does his land.

Quran (4:24) and Quran (33:50) - A man is permitted to take women as sex slaves outside of marriage.

Quran (5:6) - "And if ye are unclean, purify yourselves. And if ye are sick or on a journey, or one of you cometh from the closet, or ye have had contact with women, and ye find not water, then go to clean, high ground and rub your faces and your hands with some of it"


Quran (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority".

Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief or unrest] is worse than killing... but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun(the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)" (Translation is from the Noble Quran)


Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them

Quran (8:67) - "It is not for a Prophet that he should have prisoners of war until he had made a great slaughter in the land..."


Sahih Bukhari (52:177) - Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."

Tabari 9:69 "Killing Unbelievers is a small matter to us" The words of Muhammad, prophet of Islam.

Sahih Muslim (1:30) - "The Messenger of Allah said: I have been commanded to fight against people so long as they do not declare that there is no god but Allah."

 

[BVS]

This wouldn't be Trump using his position to help a family business interest would it?! There's no way this can be legal!


https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/829356871848951809

Sales were down, how is this unfair you entitled little prick?!

You can't con everyone into bad deals.

 

[bloodysunday972]

You mean like the angry, white men who get radicalized online and have committed the vast majority of mass shootings? Like the man in Quebec City who went from being an online troll spewing xenophobic, Islamophobic comments to killing six Muslim men while they peacefully worshiped?

OK where do I begin with this? Angry, White men who get radicalized online? So are you saying that the number of so called Angry, White men that get radicalized is larger than the people that get influenced by Jihadism and commit acts in the name of Allah?

Also color is something we have got to get out of the discussion because that is pointless. I don't care if he was albino! I am more interested in what prompted him to do it.....NOT HIS BLOODY SKIN COLOR!

I want to point out a couple of examples where when the reports came out instantly they were portrayed as something they were not.

The Naval Yard Shooter- Reports came out pretty fast that he was white and then when it was determined he was in fact black they changed the narrative.

The Florida night club shooter

San Bernadino

IT'S NOT ABOUT RACE! Its about what prompts people to do this?

 

[Babydoll]

Ok. I'll try my best to interpret, contextualize and provide some meaning hopefully this evening. As of right now, I'm trying to finish a chapter of my dissertation as I have a deadline looming!

 

[Diemen]

Babydoll.

Back on the Islam part of the discussion as someone who is a Westerner when you look at quotes like this it does put you on edge.

I would very much like for someone who is a moderate to explain these passages to me in context.
Now that being said the bible and the Quran are alike in a lot of ways as with the Quran you can see where the Prophet's teachings change. Much like the old testament vs new.

Quran (4:11) - (Inheritance) "The male shall have the equal of the portion of two females"

Quran (2:223) - "Your wives are as a tilth unto you; so approach your tilth when or how ye will..." A man has dominion over his wives' bodies as he does his land.

Quran (4:24) and Quran (33:50) - A man is permitted to take women as sex slaves outside of marriage.

Quran (5:6) - "And if ye are unclean, purify yourselves. And if ye are sick or on a journey, or one of you cometh from the closet, or ye have had contact with women, and ye find not water, then go to clean, high ground and rub your faces and your hands with some of it"


Quran (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority".

Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief or unrest] is worse than killing... but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun(the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)" (Translation is from the Noble Quran)


Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them

Quran (8:67) - "It is not for a Prophet that he should have prisoners of war until he had made a great slaughter in the land..."


Sahih Bukhari (52:177) - Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."

Tabari 9:69 "Killing Unbelievers is a small matter to us" The words of Muhammad, prophet of Islam.

Sahih Muslim (1:30) - "The Messenger of Allah said: I have been commanded to fight against people so long as they do not declare that there is no god but Allah."

Do we really want to play the "I can find questionable things in your religious text" game? Have you read the Bible?

 

[bloodysunday972]

Do we really want to play the "I can find questionable things in your religious text" game? Have you read the Bible?

LOL did you not see one of my opening comments?

 

[BEAL]

Ok. I'll try my best to interpret, contextualize and provide some meaning hopefully this evening. As of right now, I'm trying to finish a chapter of my dissertation as I have a deadline looming!

But this is the problem. This is just your opinion on the text. Others can read the text and see something horrific, or inspiring.

It's no different than Christians who try to spin any violent, sexist, or cruel text out of the Bible.

The fact that these texts leave so much open to interpretation is part of the problem. Extremists can latch on to it, use it to motivate others, and even justify abuse or murder.


It's a deflection to say "But the Bible says this!!!" Of course it does, but how often do we see Christians blowing themselves up for their holy text? When Christians do act out violently, we definitely call out the BS that is in their book. Also, I feel we do a great job of calling them out as they try to rewrite laws that break the separation of Church-State.

But as soon as there is a terrorist attack by a Jihadist (self proclaimed or otherwise), we immediately blame everything else but what's casual to the attack, and that's the ideas that turned them, or that they've always held.

We can acknowledge that the West policies, dating fucking long ago, really screwed up that part of the world. That oppressive rule, poorly thought out state mappings with little regard to tribal cultures, and of course our dependency on the natural resource that is oil.

All of that being said, especially in regards to ISIS, even if we pulled everyone out of the ME, got 100% of our energy from Solar or other, no more intervention in the political systems, do you really think ISIS would stop their attacks on the West, or even on other Muslims? And why is it that ISIS goes after Shia sect of Muslim faith? It's their belief system.

ISIS is a small group. They have been greatly reduced thanks to Obama and other nations. Granted the tactics such as drones is a tricky one, but they are much less powerful than they were before. Yes, they will still create terror, and there's no way to truly wipe out an ideology. But they are not the threat the Right makes them out to be.

Steve Bannon pretty much fucked things up even more by this stupid ban, so unfortunately any progress we could make, has probably been stalled for years to come.

My best guess would be to become less involved with their politics, which means less dependency on oil. To give financial Aid to groups or governments that represent values closer to ours, and to educate, educate, educate.

But this is a region that's been fucked for a very long time. We've had very, very smart people all over the world who have tried to find solutions, and nothing has worked/stuck. I think it goes without saying that a solution will not come from Bannon administration

 

[BVS]

OK where do I begin with this? Angry, White men who get radicalized online? So are you saying that the number of so called Angry, White men that get radicalized is larger than the people that get influenced by Jihadism and commit acts in the name of Allah?



Also color is something we have got to get out of the discussion because that is pointless. I don't care if he was albino! I am more interested in what prompted him to do it.....NOT HIS BLOODY SKIN COLOR!



I want to point out a couple of examples where when the reports came out instantly they were portrayed as something they were not.



The Naval Yard Shooter- Reports came out pretty fast that he was white and then when it was determined he was in fact black they changed the narrative.



The Florida night club shooter



San Bernadino



IT'S NOT ABOUT RACE! Its about what prompts people to do this?

But race does have something to do with it. When white men become radicalized it often has to do with feeling displaced, that they are losing their white male establishment, as OReiley called it. Trump supporters talked about it in here, it's part of what Trump tapped into. Don't ever pretend it has nothing to do with it.

 

[bloodysunday972]

But race does have something to do with it. When white men become radicalized it often has to do with feeling displaced, that they are losing their white male establishment, as OReiley called it. Trump supporters talked about it in here, it's part of what Trump tapped into. Don't ever pretend it has nothing to do with it.

It may be just me but I care more about motive.

Everything else is just window dressing for the masses.

 

[BVS]

It may be just me but I care more about motive.



Everything else is just window dressing for the masses.

Did you not read my post?! Race is part of the motive in these instances. What part of that do you not understand?

 

[anitram]

It's a deflection to say "But the Bible says this!!!" Of course it does, but how often do we see Christians blowing themselves up for their holy text?

There is a lot to unpack here.

One issue is that the Islamic world largely has not undergone a modern renaissance (again, think of the role of secular education) and therefore is decades or in some instances centuries "behind" what are perceived to be acceptable social norms by most of the rest of the world.

Another issue is that Islam by definition (much like Judaism) permeates the entire social fabric of the its societies. Putting aside for now the relatively small number of wacko Christian end-timers, the reality is that from its very insception, Christianity focused on the spiritual world and not this one. Christ's early followers were instructed to prepare for the imminent arrival of the kingdom following Jesus' death which would come "like a thief in the night". One of the reasons that the early Christians did not join the Jews in their revolt against the Romans when the second temple was destroyed is precisely this - the Jews could not stomach the idea of living under a polytheistic society, it was an affront to their very being. Meanwhile the early Christians thought Jesus was about to come back and they were readying their souls for that and not particularly caring one way or another about the implications of Roman rule. This preparation of your soul for the kingdom, the emphasis that this life is transient and we should look forward to the next life has made it acceptable throughout the last 2 millenia that Christians could live as minority communities and did not require their nations to be theocratic in order to still be "proper" Christians. Islam and Judaism ("slay the polytheist wherever you may find him") are based on a different principle.

This may all sound esoteric and silly in today's world where you most certainly have a political Christianity behaving totally contrary to its roots (nevermind the Crusades!), but it goes to explain some of the very fundamental differences between the 3 monotheisms.

 

[BEAL]

My point I guess was more about how we see deflections in any argument.

Trump has admitted to abusing women sexually.....

Yes, but Bill Clinton raped a woman!!!

We have to find a way to focus on the current problem.

Polls showed that Islamic Terrorism was a top priority for voters, and they went towards Trump. What ideas will the Left come up with to combat what is clearly a horrible solution by this administration?

Shutting down conversation seems to be what happens a lot. I can criticize Islam, without making it personal to the billions of Muslims in the world. Just as I can be very critical of those of the Mormon faith, without scapegoating those who hold those beliefs.

 

[LuckyNumber7]

No, it was as if he was befuddled; why couldn't he just tell a small business owner that they would have to raise their prices or cut wages? His answer was just "I believe a business with 50 or more needs to provide healthcare."

Either tell us you understand that prices will go up, or offer me a solution. Don't just tell me 'you believe'. That's always been my main issue with him.

You know what's irresponsible? Making assumptions.

1. Sanders doesn't know what her books look like. He tried to make that clear. 'I don't know anything about hairdressing salons in Ft. Worth.' He doesn't know if this woman, who owns 5 stores, is making 150k a year, 50k a year, or 500k a year. Fair enough, it's a difficult dollar value to estimate.

2. He isn't exactly in a position to ask how much gross income her business reels in.

3. He's not a business advisor to her. Theoretically, the 'simple answer' is that either cutting wages or raising prices would have an impact. It's not his job to determine that -- that's her job. It's definitely not his job to make that recommendation if he has no idea what kind of money she deals in.

All in all, she still brings up a fair point. Is the number 50 some arbitrarily chosen number that was nice and round? Or was research placed to determine that number? Should that number be a function based upon location? (Probably). He didn't come off with a robust answer on that question, but to his credit, he didn't pansy around the question like Cruz does, and he didn't flat out lie to her (like plenty of other politicians would). He missed a chance at getting points, but he hardly looked stupid in the face of an incredibly generalized scenario that requires far more information to be able to answer.

 

[Oregoropa]

Do we really want to play the "I can find questionable things in your religious text" game? Have you read the Bible?

This one is my favorite. Doesn't demean women. It just says if kids make fun of you fun you for being Bald you are fully authorized to summon Bears to rip them apart.



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