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digitize said:
There's no way in hell the Congressional GOP will go along with it... right?
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Is this a kneejerk policy because he was shunned by the Mexican President? Surely not but looks like it.
 
prbiker15 said:
Fucking insane. Want to see the country collapse once more?
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I just want to hide from politics for four years - to spend it enjoying everything beautiful about the world while ignoring the catastrophe in Washington.

Too bad I work in a fairly cyclical industry, and, even if my job is fine, I have to remember that there are plenty of people far less fortunate than I am.
 
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Headache in a Suitcase said:
there is plenty of blame to go around for why this happened. the arguing back and forth over which holds more water is not productive right now. ALL of the reasons being discussed in here had something to do with it. did the far left/sanders supporters stay home? did third party votes have a negative effect? was there a hidden trump vote that nobody saw? could hillary have done more in the rust belt? did the democratic party lose the optics war? did the comey letter have a debilitating effect on clinton's campaign? racism? sexism? voter suppression? gerrymandering? the left ignoring the rural working class for years?

the answer to all of those things is yes - and those of us in the opposition, no matter far left or centrist, are going to have to figure these things out.
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Strongly disagree. We need a legitimate gameplan on how to start winning seats back, how to win the Senate back, everything. And analyzing how the Democratic Party has fucked up is crucial to starting to turn the tide back around.

Otherwise we'll have Cory Booker in 2020 and Pence will cruise to an easy win.
 
PhilsFan said:
Strongly disagree. We need a legitimate gameplan on how to start winning seats back, how to win the Senate back, everything. And analyzing how the Democratic Party has fucked up is crucial to starting to turn the tide back around.

Otherwise we'll have Cory Booker in 2020 and Pence will cruise to an easy win.
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Analyzing how things went wrong is different than bickering back and forth about how things went wrong.

I agree that there needs to be a discussion of where it went wrong. I actually said that. It needs to be addressed and both sides of the table need to swallow some pride and admit certain things need to be done differently than how they want.

Fighting over it and insisting that one side or the other is the only way to go is kinda how we got into this in the first place.

In the meantime there's a drunk driver behind the wheel.
 
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One day (if we're all still alive) someone will write a book on how the US as a country unravelled in the space of a few weeks because of a mentally ill President.
 
Headache in a Suitcase said:
Analyzing how things went wrong is different than bickering back and forth about how things went wrong.

I agree that there needs to be a discussion of where it went wrong. I actually said that. It needs to be addressed and both sides of the table need to swallow some pride and admit certain things need to be done differently than how they want.

Fighting over it and insisting that one side or the other is the only way to go is kinda how we got into this in the first place.

In the meantime there's a drunk driver behind the wheel.
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Agree with all of this 100%
 
Headache in a Suitcase said:
Analyzing how things went wrong is different than bickering back and forth about how things went wrong.

I agree that there needs to be a discussion of where it went wrong. I actually said that. It needs to be addressed and both sides of the table need to swallow some pride and admit certain things need to be done differently than how they want.

Fighting over it and insisting that one side or the other is the only way to go is kinda how we got into this in the first place.

In the meantime there's a drunk driver behind the wheel.
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Miss me with this "well both the leftists and the traditional Democrats had their faults" line of thinking. I'm failing to see where the leftists failed us here, beyond not having the favor of rich people.

I'm capable of fighting more than one battle at once. I can fight against Trump, call my congressman and senators to file my complaints and have my voice heard, attend rallies and meetings to mobilize people (which I'm doing) ... while also trying to fight back against the centrist tendencies killing the Democratic Party. They're both worthy causes, and important ones.
 
PhilsFan said:
Miss me with this "well both the leftists and the traditional Democrats had their faults" line of thinking. I'm failing to see where the leftists failed us here, beyond not having the favor of rich people.

I'm capable of fighting more than one battle at once. I can fight against Trump, call my congressman and senators to file my complaints and have my voice heard, attend rallies and meetings to mobilize people (which I'm doing) ... while also trying to fight back against the centrist tendencies killing the Democratic Party. They're both worthy causes, and important ones.
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So that brings me back to my original question to Irvine yesterday: Who the hell are us in the middle supposed to vote for then? Because I have ZERO interest in voting for a far left candidate.
 
bono_212 said:
So that brings me back to my original question to Irvine yesterday: Who the hell are us in the middle supposed to vote for then? Because I have ZERO interest in voting for a far left candidate.
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I would like the opportunity to spend a full campaign season convincing you the far left is something you want to vote for.
 
The problem is that "far left" as a concept is so misunderstood in the United States. A Bernie candidate is basically a social democrat anywhere else in the world, perhaps one with some antiquated views on some stuff like trade, but still. Not sure if that's what PFan means, but the first step in convincing people to vote for a candidate like that is to stop calling him/her a far left candidate.
 
PhilsFan said:
I would like the opportunity to spend a full campaign season convincing you the far left is something you want to vote for.
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I'm sorry, but this statement is really illustrated an attitude on the American Left that concerns me.

It's entirely possible for people like you and I - a centrist and a leftist (insert all the usual caveats about "leftist by American standards" here; I'm using shorthand for the sake of convenience) - to have reasonable, substantive debate about policy. However, an attitude that that sort of leftism is just something that we'll all be happy to come around to given the chance is dangerous. It's dangerous because it ignores the fact that there are people with different political persuasions, and we can't just assume that the country will march forward towards some image of "progress", haters be damned and ignored. Sometimes, those haters may even have valid concerns.

I mentioned earlier that the DNC is moving leftward, and I still believe it. It's strongly true on social issues, but also on economic ones, as again illustrated by the official DNC platform. Three short months ago, Democrats were pushing a wishlist of free public college education, $15/hour minimum wage, heavy and unspecified new banking regulations, and half the time a new Glass-Steagall.

Now, we're just hoping that George Orwell isn't a prophet.

What does that mean? It means that it's arrogant to assume that the left can and should pursue a constant march leftward, and that everyone else can be ignored. Because "everyone else" came to bite with a vengeance this election cycle.


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If you want to keeping marching to the center every time, you're more than welcome to have 2016 repeat itself over and over again.
 
I'm happy to have it. I needed a couple of months to decompress after the election but his first few days have me recognizing that I don't have time to rest. So let's get to it.

In the meantime, it seems that this heavy resistance is at least having some impact, as Spicer had to walk back the Mexico tariff comments and Trump canceled his event to order an investigation into voter fraud.
 
PhilsFan said:
If you want to keeping marching to the center every time, you're more than welcome to have 2016 repeat itself over and over again.
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1) I still do not at all buy that there's a DNC march to the center. Exactly the opposite was true under the Obama years in my mind, even if Obama himself probably moved to the center in his second term. Again, DNC platform.

2) I also think it's a highly, highly dubious statement to claim that the DNC would somehow win more votes - presumably from the center - by being more left-wing. It's a counterintuitive statement, and the burden of the proof should lie with it, not the alternative. I'll grant you that Sanders might have performed better with WWC voters than Clinton, but only because of his more Trump-ish positions (e.g. protectionism), which is both terrifying and a little removed from the left-right spectrum. And he also would have probably lost plenty of college-educated whites on top of it.

I do think it's possible that the tradeoff might have turned into more EC votes for Sanders in 2016, because of trade. But I also don't at all buy that there's some sort of repeatable model for moving the DNC further to the left in general (especially on social issues, but also on redistributional economics) and getting more votes because of it. Maybe the country will drift left over time (especially on social issues, I generally agree), but that doesn't mean that the DNC should race to the left as quickly as possible for more votes from the center.


Sent from my iPhone using U2 Interference
 
PhilsFan said:
I'm happy to have it. I needed a couple of months to decompress after the election but his first few days have me recognizing that I don't have time to rest. So let's get to it.

In the meantime, it seems that this heavy resistance is at least having some impact, as Spicer had to walk back the Mexico tariff comments and Trump canceled his event to order an investigation into voter fraud.
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I appreciate it, too.

And thank goodness.


Sent from my iPhone using U2 Interference
 
on the bright side of all this, produce (especially avocados) is going to be absolutely dirt cheap here in canada for the forseeable future. i :heart: nafta
 
Except that you can't impose unilateral tariffs as part of NAFTA, so you are fucked too (also, NAFTA may well disappear).
 
PhilsFan said:
If you want to keeping marching to the center every time, you're more than welcome to have 2016 repeat itself over and over again.
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I do, though, so if there's are centralist candidate on the Republican side, you could probably kiss my vote goodbye against a Bernie type.
 
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