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Old 01-26-2017, 04:42 PM   #221
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Analyzing how things went wrong is different than bickering back and forth about how things went wrong.

I agree that there needs to be a discussion of where it went wrong. I actually said that. It needs to be addressed and both sides of the table need to swallow some pride and admit certain things need to be done differently than how they want.

Fighting over it and insisting that one side or the other is the only way to go is kinda how we got into this in the first place.

In the meantime there's a drunk driver behind the wheel.
Agree with all of this 100%
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Old 01-26-2017, 04:43 PM   #222
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Analyzing how things went wrong is different than bickering back and forth about how things went wrong.

I agree that there needs to be a discussion of where it went wrong. I actually said that. It needs to be addressed and both sides of the table need to swallow some pride and admit certain things need to be done differently than how they want.

Fighting over it and insisting that one side or the other is the only way to go is kinda how we got into this in the first place.

In the meantime there's a drunk driver behind the wheel.
Miss me with this "well both the leftists and the traditional Democrats had their faults" line of thinking. I'm failing to see where the leftists failed us here, beyond not having the favor of rich people.

I'm capable of fighting more than one battle at once. I can fight against Trump, call my congressman and senators to file my complaints and have my voice heard, attend rallies and meetings to mobilize people (which I'm doing) ... while also trying to fight back against the centrist tendencies killing the Democratic Party. They're both worthy causes, and important ones.
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Old 01-26-2017, 04:44 PM   #223
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In other news, here is the Trump voter's essence distilled in one back-and-forth:

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Old 01-26-2017, 04:48 PM   #224
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Miss me with this "well both the leftists and the traditional Democrats had their faults" line of thinking. I'm failing to see where the leftists failed us here, beyond not having the favor of rich people.

I'm capable of fighting more than one battle at once. I can fight against Trump, call my congressman and senators to file my complaints and have my voice heard, attend rallies and meetings to mobilize people (which I'm doing) ... while also trying to fight back against the centrist tendencies killing the Democratic Party. They're both worthy causes, and important ones.
So that brings me back to my original question to Irvine yesterday: Who the hell are us in the middle supposed to vote for then? Because I have ZERO interest in voting for a far left candidate.
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Old 01-26-2017, 04:53 PM   #225
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More rogue tweeting: NASA scientists reportedly launch rogue Twitter accounts to defy Trump - Business Insider
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Old 01-26-2017, 04:54 PM   #226
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Sanctions to be lifted from Russia now?

Trump to speak to Merkel and Putin on Sunday.

https://twitter.com/FabricePothier/s...12841932533763


https://twitter.com/sbg1/status/824734913790349313


https://twitter.com/peterjukes/statu...40036402958336

Also seems the Mexican tariff wasn't real?!
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Old 01-26-2017, 05:41 PM   #227
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So that brings me back to my original question to Irvine yesterday: Who the hell are us in the middle supposed to vote for then? Because I have ZERO interest in voting for a far left candidate.
I would like the opportunity to spend a full campaign season convincing you the far left is something you want to vote for.
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Old 01-26-2017, 05:44 PM   #228
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The problem is that "far left" as a concept is so misunderstood in the United States. A Bernie candidate is basically a social democrat anywhere else in the world, perhaps one with some antiquated views on some stuff like trade, but still. Not sure if that's what PFan means, but the first step in convincing people to vote for a candidate like that is to stop calling him/her a far left candidate.
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Old 01-26-2017, 05:45 PM   #229
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Because we haven't considered it before?
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Old 01-26-2017, 05:52 PM   #230
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I present to you Exhibit# 857848302028394

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/26/b...rref=t.co&_r=1
Hey Bannon, the media is supposed to be an opposition party to those actively misleading lying to the American people.
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Old 01-26-2017, 06:02 PM   #231
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Trump General Discussion V

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I would like the opportunity to spend a full campaign season convincing you the far left is something you want to vote for.

I'm sorry, but this statement is really illustrated an attitude on the American Left that concerns me.

It's entirely possible for people like you and I - a centrist and a leftist (insert all the usual caveats about "leftist by American standards" here; I'm using shorthand for the sake of convenience) - to have reasonable, substantive debate about policy. However, an attitude that that sort of leftism is just something that we'll all be happy to come around to given the chance is dangerous. It's dangerous because it ignores the fact that there are people with different political persuasions, and we can't just assume that the country will march forward towards some image of "progress", haters be damned and ignored. Sometimes, those haters may even have valid concerns.

I mentioned earlier that the DNC is moving leftward, and I still believe it. It's strongly true on social issues, but also on economic ones, as again illustrated by the official DNC platform. Three short months ago, Democrats were pushing a wishlist of free public college education, $15/hour minimum wage, heavy and unspecified new banking regulations, and half the time a new Glass-Steagall.

Now, we're just hoping that George Orwell isn't a prophet.

What does that mean? It means that it's arrogant to assume that the left can and should pursue a constant march leftward, and that everyone else can be ignored. Because "everyone else" came to bite with a vengeance this election cycle.


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Old 01-26-2017, 06:05 PM   #232
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If you want to keeping marching to the center every time, you're more than welcome to have 2016 repeat itself over and over again.
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Old 01-26-2017, 06:11 PM   #233
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Just what to say that I think this is a productive conversation at the moment -- I look forward to reading more.
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Old 01-26-2017, 06:15 PM   #234
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http://www.miamiherald.com/news/loca...128984759.html
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Old 01-26-2017, 06:15 PM   #235
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I'm happy to have it. I needed a couple of months to decompress after the election but his first few days have me recognizing that I don't have time to rest. So let's get to it.

In the meantime, it seems that this heavy resistance is at least having some impact, as Spicer had to walk back the Mexico tariff comments and Trump canceled his event to order an investigation into voter fraud.
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Old 01-26-2017, 06:18 PM   #236
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If you want to keeping marching to the center every time, you're more than welcome to have 2016 repeat itself over and over again.

1) I still do not at all buy that there's a DNC march to the center. Exactly the opposite was true under the Obama years in my mind, even if Obama himself probably moved to the center in his second term. Again, DNC platform.

2) I also think it's a highly, highly dubious statement to claim that the DNC would somehow win more votes - presumably from the center - by being more left-wing. It's a counterintuitive statement, and the burden of the proof should lie with it, not the alternative. I'll grant you that Sanders might have performed better with WWC voters than Clinton, but only because of his more Trump-ish positions (e.g. protectionism), which is both terrifying and a little removed from the left-right spectrum. And he also would have probably lost plenty of college-educated whites on top of it.

I do think it's possible that the tradeoff might have turned into more EC votes for Sanders in 2016, because of trade. But I also don't at all buy that there's some sort of repeatable model for moving the DNC further to the left in general (especially on social issues, but also on redistributional economics) and getting more votes because of it. Maybe the country will drift left over time (especially on social issues, I generally agree), but that doesn't mean that the DNC should race to the left as quickly as possible for more votes from the center.


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Old 01-26-2017, 06:18 PM   #237
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I'm happy to have it. I needed a couple of months to decompress after the election but his first few days have me recognizing that I don't have time to rest. So let's get to it.

In the meantime, it seems that this heavy resistance is at least having some impact, as Spicer had to walk back the Mexico tariff comments and Trump canceled his event to order an investigation into voter fraud.

I appreciate it, too.

And thank goodness.


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Old 01-26-2017, 06:24 PM   #238
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on the bright side of all this, produce (especially avocados) is going to be absolutely dirt cheap here in canada for the forseeable future. i nafta
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Old 01-26-2017, 06:32 PM   #239
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Except that you can't impose unilateral tariffs as part of NAFTA, so you are fucked too (also, NAFTA may well disappear).
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Old 01-26-2017, 06:36 PM   #240
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If you want to keeping marching to the center every time, you're more than welcome to have 2016 repeat itself over and over again.
I do, though, so if there's are centralist candidate on the Republican side, you could probably kiss my vote goodbye against a Bernie type.
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