Trump General Discussion IV: Unpresidented! Very sad!

[BEAL]

Voted for Trump? Proud now?
Tonight, the Republican Party voted to begin dismantling "Obamacare." Rather than let them erase the law and its protections in one swoop, Democrats fought back by proposing amendments to save certain parts, like healthcare protections for veterans. Republicans voted against that. (But thanks for your service, vets!)
Then Republicans voted against the rule that says insurance companies have to cover "pre-existing conditions," (so if you have had cancer, diabetes, or heart problems in the past, good luck keeping even your private insurance now.) Then they killed CHIP, which is the Children's Health Insurance Program, which provided health care to impoverished sick kids. Again - they voted against health care for poor kids. (So Christlike.)
The Republicans then voted against continuing federal aid to rural hospitals, which is the only thing keeping many of them open. (I guess the joke's on all those deep-red heartland counties who voted for this one-party rule.) All you pro-life folks - they also voted against contraception coverage. With no health coverage for their pregnancies, more women will choose abortions to avoid bankruptcy. (Oops!) Also, that rule saying you can keep your kids on your private insurance until they're 26? Gone. Democrats also forced a vote to protect Medicare and Medicaid from being reduced, but Republicans voted against those, too. Old people and the infirm - to hell with them, right?
Democrats made them vote on every one of these topics - partly so voters could see exactly what was being voted against. And every time, like clockwork, the Republicans voted against the needs of human beings and in support of profits for insurance companies and tax cuts for the extremely wealthy, which paid for parts of these programs. It was sickening to see the votes unfold.
Democrats argued into the wee hours, but this is life under one-party rule. If you voted for Trump and his Republican majority, this is what you wanted. Abject human suffering. Drink deep. Here is your victory.
Not one Republican offered a single proposal to replace any of these .
--Anthony Breznican

You got conned and will forever be on the wrong side of history.


Sent from my iPhone using U2 Interference

Don't worry. What they'll replace it all with will be so good, you won't know what to do



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[digitize]

Republicans are discovering an interesting reality: that people want health insurance, but that providing health insurance to all requires moving resource from the healthy to the sick and from the rich to the poor.

There's really no way to concoct a replacement that achieves anything near the coverage of the ACA without acceding to that notion. That's why we have "something terrific" and vague promises.

The ACA itself is a bit of a PR miracle: to achieve that redistribution (mostly) without explicit taxes. It does so by giving healthy people something in exchange for their money - insurance, although generally at net present value below cost, so it can function as a hidden tax. But it accomplishes the necessary redistribution without explicitly being a tax.

Perhaps taxes to fund a single payer system would be more efficient and more understandable, but taxes aren't popular, of course. So the ACA does its best to achieve mostly-universal coverage in an actuarially sound(ish) way with only de facto taxes.

The GOP just needs to come out and say that they are not in favor of granting health insurance to those who can't afford it, or those who are too sick to be actuarially sound bets in normal risk pools. They need to just honestly admit that they don't see health care as anything close to a universal right. That's a philosophically and economically defensible viewpoint, even if a lot of people (especially on this board) would disagree with it. But instead we get "something terrific", with the implication that the GOP are alchemists who can generate health care for the masses without the nasty redistribution that comes from taxes, or from the mandated coverage part of the ACA.

"Something terrific."

 

[Irvine511]

Very cogent post.

 

[anitram]

The issue of the Obamacare repeal and alleged replace has become somewhat akin to abortion among Republican lawmakers. It is a great talking point to get their base riled up, it can be "explained" in really simplistic terms like "we'll repeal on day 1" and "premiums are skyrocketing" and "socialism!" In reality, I don't think that most Republican lawmakers have actually ever turned their mind to replacing it with something that provides insurance for those who can't afford it and for those who would not be approved due to pre-existing conditions, as digitize so aptly described above. Just like they also have never actually put their mind to the practicalities of criminalizing abortion - who is prosecuted, how are they prosecuted, who has the burden of proof, what are the penalties and incarceration rates going to be, etc. I really think many of them just operated on the notion of screaming about Obamacare while knowing full well that they have no better option but that was ok because by their calculus the possibility of them actually having to come up with some plausible alternative was likely low. Now they are all in a bit of a pickle because you have Trump who wants them to do the impossible (repeal on day 1 and replace in "weeks", having stated publicly that anything longer than "weeks" is unacceptable), you have the public who clearly likes many aspects of the law (even the fools who want it all repealed, much like the ones who want government to keep its hands off their social security/medicare), you have crazy Teabagger like types who want a repeal and don't care about a replace unless it's with something that looks nothing like the current law, and you have Republican members of Congress in blue districts or states and moderate Republicans who already have cold feet, whether it be because they disagree with the repeal without an analogous replace or because they are worried about their own hides getting tossed out in the next election. The question at this point is really which of these groups/entities will have to suck it up and take one for the team on this one. My guess is Trump for sure (though he'll come up with some cockamamie lie about how "weeks" and 4 years is actually the same thing if you pretend like you're a bear hibernating), but who else is the real question.

 

[dabiggestu2fan]

Yeah I voted for him, and I would do it again. He's a bull in a China Shop, and the China Shop is our government which has descended into a cronyist morass over the past 20 years. 15 trillion in debt since 2000. It's time to break some china (no pun intended). I didn't watch the whole press conference, but I thoroughly enjoyed the parts that I did. The press has a lower trustworthy rating among the Public than the congressional favorability rating of ~15%.

CNN has truly become a joke. Proven collusion with the DNC against Bernie and Trump. If you say that is BS, then why was DWS forced to resign? That is not journalistic integrity of holding Truth to Power.

We have had 8 years of Obama bashing Fox News. Trump calls CNN 'fake news' and suddenly everybody is panicked that the 1st Amendment is on the chopping block.

Everybody take a deep breath.

Seriously dude you still haven't answered my question, how the hell can you defend someone like trump? Defending someone like trump is like defending a pedophile! I just don't understand how you or anyone can defend him after all the bullshit he has said and done? How??? I am truly buffled! What goes on in your mind to make you honestly believe this guys will be any good? But then again people fell for hitler (and who the hell knows why). I guess it's just human nature!

 

[mama cass]

Seriously dude you still haven't answered my question, how the hell can you defend someone like trump? Defending someone like trump is like defending a pedophile! I just don't understand how you or anyone can defend him after all the bullshit he has said and done? How??? I am truly buffled! What goes on in your mind to make you honestly believe this guys will be any good? But then again people fell for hitler (and who the hell knows why). I guess it's just human nature!

 

[Hollow Island]

to paraphrase Marc Maron, when someone says they voted for Trump what they're really saying is they voted for Fuck You. That's all there is to Trump and his ilk: fuck you. You want health care? Fuck you. You want climate policies that will maybe stop the worst from happening? Fuck you. You want a functioning society? Fuck you.

 

[Hollow Island]

Why are the Trump supporters who were so angry about Clinton's Goldman Sachs connections so quiet about Trump's six Goldman appointees?

Why are the Trump supporters who were so angry about Clinton's conflicts of interests silent on Trump's, especially since there are so many more?

Because all they care about is Fuck You.

 

[dabiggestu2fan]

Hollow you are very correct! A vote for trump was a big fuck you vote. But the people who voted trump wanted to say fuck you so badly that they sacrificed pretty much everything just to get a fuck you! Bisicaly they shot themselves in the foot and shot every other person who did not vote for trump! All because they wanted to say fuck you! Because of that, they fucked themselves and everyone else. I hope the "fuck you" was worth it!

 

[Irvine511]

Why are the Trump supporters who were so angry about Clinton's Goldman Sachs connections so quiet about Trump's six Goldman appointees?

Why are the Trump supporters who were so angry about Clinton's conflicts of interests silent on Trump's, especially since there are so many more?

Because all they care about is Fuck You.

and, perhaps ironically, and perhaps deservedly, these are the people who are going to get fucked by his policies.

 

[Hollow Island]

one could say that are, in fact, the real cucks.

this will go down as The Great Cucking

 

[iron yuppie]

That's a philosophically and economically defensible viewpoint, even if a lot of people (especially on this board) would disagree with it.

I'd be very curious to hear how it's "philosophically defensible" in a society of this wealth.

 

[gump]

Especially when the other priority in this Republican Congress is additional tax cuts that will mostly benefit the wealthy.

 

[iron yuppie]

and, perhaps ironically, and perhaps deservedly, these are the people who are going to get fucked by his policies.

Do you really believe that people who got swept up in his rhetoric should be made to suffer as a result? This is kind of the equivalent of saying someone who got caught in a predatory mortgage deserves to be homeless.

 

[anitram]

I don't know if they should suffer, that's a philosophical argument for another day, but I will most certainly hold each and every one of them responsible for everything that is done in the next 8 years. The good, the bad, and the ugly. They own it ALL.

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

You know the former MI6 agent and current private security investigator who wrote the Trump Dossier?

You know, the real guy who wrote it and not some dopes on 4chan, who day they wrote it so that other dopes will fall for it?

Turns out he's the same guy who gave all that information to the FBI on Drop Blatter and brought down FIFA. So he's highly credible, and his entire professional reputation would be shot if he reported falsehoods.

So hey, congrats to the Christian right for voting in a guy who hires hookers to do golden showers.

Jesus would be proud. John the Baptist was a big water sports fan.

 

[BEAL]

I don't personally wish ill will on anyone, but accountability should be held by those who voted for this man, and for those who didn't cast a vote at all.

None of the policies that have been floated about will help "middle america". None. The tax cuts favor the top, automation will continue to kill jobs in all facets of life (amazon may put my job in jeopardy soon enough), and healthcare being repealed without any form of a plan helps no one.

Clinton wasn't going to be a savior, but I saw her as a continuation of Obama, and other than the right wing echo chamber, most of us can agree the last eight years has been pretty good to a majority of americans.

not sure we can say that in another four

 

[gump]

I'd also argue that being conned by a vile candidate who was very openly racist and xenophobic is quite different than being conned by a bank that tricked you into accepting a financial instrument that was not necessarily easy to understand. The latter case deserves more compassion than the former, in my opinion. That doesn't mean I wish anyone who will lose health care to suffer, not at all. But absolving them of any responsibility doesn't help, either.

 

[Irvine511]

Do you really believe that people who got swept up in his rhetoric should be made to suffer as a result? This is kind of the equivalent of saying someone who got caught in a predatory mortgage deserves to be homeless.

I think of it more as tough love. I'm out of sympathy for the so-called white working class. I'll stand with immigrants and inner-city black folks and creative class yuppies (all my neighbors!) any day of the week and twice on Sundays, and extend to WCWs exactly the same sympathy and compassion they've extended to anyone different from them. Which is to say very little.

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

The more I read about the dismantling of the healthcare system, the angrier I get. I'm not wishing for anyone to lose their health insurance, either, but anyone who voted for Trump or any of the other Republicans who made a big fuss of getting rid of Obamacare has zero room to complain when they do lose whatever health insurance they have thanks to them. Thanks for screwing everyone over, guys. Really appreciate it.

Why are the Trump supporters who were so angry about Clinton's Goldman Sachs connections so quiet about Trump's six Goldman appointees?

Why are the Trump supporters who were so angry about Clinton's conflicts of interests silent on Trump's, especially since there are so many more?

Because all they care about is Fuck You.

It is truly amazing how easily they're able to disregard any of the criticism and scandal surrounding Trump. They literally do not see the obvious hypocrisy and BS. It's all just evil liberals and the media being "delusional" or some such nonsense to them.

I honestly do not know what, if anything, it would take to finally make them wake the fuck up and pay attention. I really don't.

 

[Oregoropa]

Seriously dude you still haven't answered my question, how the hell can you defend someone like trump? Defending someone like trump is like defending a pedophile! I just don't understand how you or anyone can defend him after all the bullshit he has said and done? How??? I am truly buffled! What goes on in your mind to make you honestly believe this guys will be any good? But then again people fell for hitler (and who the hell knows why). I guess it's just human nature!

Ahhhh . . . the Hitler card. So original.

I have been defending and promoting Trump for about 19 months on the board. I'll do a quick summation.

As a conservative Republican I was initially a Cruz backer, until Trump announced. Cruz was disliked by the entire beltway establishment . . . I found that quite endearing.

I was looking for a strong leader that would have the ability to pinch off the cronyist circulatory system of money, power, and influence that dominates our federal government.

In walks Trump. As an outsider, he was the ideal messenger to accomplish this goal. He even participated in the system of New York graft having to donate to HRC and Schumer to further his interests. He was straight up about that. Just like the old commercial "Not only am I the President of Hair Club for men, I'm also a client"

On the strategy of having a Republican that could win the general I was witness to the great shift or blue collar Dems gravitating to Trump. I was in ground zero in the Wilkes-Barre, Scranton metro of Pennsylvania where New York attitude, Philly brash talk, meets Middle America. The enthusiasm for Trump indicated to me that he could be a winner in the General. This metro area was one of the big flips of the election and gave the win to Trump.

When it comes to the General I had to choose between him and Hillary. I went with him because of his leadership abilities, economic vision, and principles.

- Originalist judges in the mold of Scalia
- Stronger military for the purpose of deterrence. IE Peace through Strength
- Cutting burdensome regulations on business
- Dropping the corporate tax rate
- Repealing the ACA
- Dropping taxes across the board
- Term limits
- Increased energy production
- Enforcing existing immigration law
- Increased border security
- Local control of education

His behavior on the surface may seem abhorrent to you, and you may find yourself on the opposite end of the spectrum, but in the end we are choosing the leader of the executive branch of the government. I don't mind if he is at times abrasive and crude. LBJ was a filthy dirty dog and yet got the civil rights agenda through. Trump has the ability to right the economic ship of state, Clinton offered nothing except managing America's decline. During the debates all I heard from her about job creation was "I want to invest in workers and the jobs of the future". This basically code for I will use worker's tax money, and through government agencies come up with a plan to create jobs that have no real use in the private sector. Basically Solyndra garbage.

Hillary is the poster-child of the cronyist beltway mentality. (Bear in mind the Clinton Foundation is still under investigation by the FBI). Maybe she has been there so long she has known how to play the "Game". The air of impropriety hung over her like a cloud. She was disconnected from the voters she needed the most. Was there anything new or innovative she was offering? It was a change election and she was the status quo. If you are a progressive it was common sense that Hillary was the obvious choice, how could anybody see otherwise. . . . . And she almost got it. A couple tight state races decided it. But in the Midwest many states saw a 14 point swing from blue to red.


TL;DR - I'm conservative. I like Trump for his economic-security policy. I don't mind his potty mouth. Hillary sucks.

 

[TheFox]

Ahhhh . . . the Hitler card. So original.

I have been defending and promoting Trump for about 19 months on the board. I'll do a quick summation.

As a conservative Republican I was initially a Cruz backer, until Trump announced. Cruz was disliked by the entire beltway establishment . . . I found that quite endearing.

I was looking for a strong leader that would have the ability to pinch off the cronyist circulatory system of money, power, and influence that dominates our federal government.

In walks Trump. As an outsider, he was the ideal messenger to accomplish this goal. He even participated in the system of New York graft having to donate to HRC and Schumer to further his interests. He was straight up about that. Just like the old commercial "Not only am I the President of Hair Club for men, I'm also a client"

On the strategy of having a Republican that could win the general I was witness to the great shift or blue collar Dems gravitating to Trump. I was in ground zero in the Wilkes-Barre, Scranton metro of Pennsylvania where New York attitude, Philly brash talk, meets Middle America. The enthusiasm for Trump indicated to me that he could be a winner in the General. This metro area was one of the big flips of the election and gave the win to Trump.

When it comes to the General I had to choose between him and Hillary. I went with him because of his leadership abilities, economic vision, and principles.

- Originalist judges in the mold of Scalia
- Stronger military for the purpose of deterrence. IE Peace through Strength
- Cutting burdensome regulations on business
- Dropping the corporate tax rate
- Repealing the ACA
- Dropping taxes across the board
- Term limits
- Increased energy production
- Enforcing existing immigration law
- Increased border security
- Local control of education

His behavior on the surface may seem abhorrent to you, and you may find yourself on the opposite end of the spectrum, but in the end we are choosing the leader of the executive branch of the government. I don't mind if he is at times abrasive and crude. LBJ was a filthy dirty dog and yet got the civil rights agenda through. Trump has the ability to right the economic ship of state, Clinton offered nothing except managing America's decline. During the debates all I heard from her about job creation was "I want to invest in workers and the jobs of the future". This basically code for I will use worker's tax money, and through government agencies come up with a plan to create jobs that have no real use in the private sector. Basically Solyndra garbage.

Hillary is the poster-child of the cronyist beltway mentality. (Bear in mind the Clinton Foundation is still under investigation by the FBI). Maybe she has been there so long she has known how to play the "Game". The air of impropriety hung over her like a cloud. She was disconnected from the voters she needed the most. Was there anything new or innovative she was offering? It was a change election and she was the status quo. If you are a progressive it was common sense that Hillary was the obvious choice, how could anybody see otherwise. . . . . And she almost got it. A couple tight state races decided it. But in the Midwest many states saw a 14 point swing from blue to red.


TL;DR - I'm conservative. I like Trump for his economic-security policy. I don't mind his potty mouth. Hillary sucks.

Where do you even begin with this nonsense?!

 

[Oregoropa]

Where do you even begin with this nonsense?!

He won.

 

[TheFox]

He won.

Yeah, I'm just thankful I'm not an American. Good luck to you all.

 

[BVS]

He won.

Because people got conned.

Plain and simple.

I couldn't get through your diatribe, I got through a few sentences and none were true. None.


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[Moonlit_Angel]

Cruz was disliked by the entire beltway establishment . . . I found that quite endearing.

Yeah...there's a lot of valid reasons for that.

I was looking for a strong leader that would have the ability to pinch off the cronyist circulatory system of money, power, and influence that dominates our federal government.

In walks Trump. As an outsider, he was the ideal messenger to accomplish this goal.

And as we're so plainly seeing now, you are very wrong on that.

- Originalist judges in the mold of Scalia

We really, really do not need more judges like Scalia.

- Stronger military for the purpose of deterrence. IE Peace through Strength

Did you see how disrespectful Trump was towards the Khan family? Remember that whole mess?

Also, you're entrusting our military in the hands of a guy who goes on three am Twitter rants because somebody was "mean" to him. A guy who just recently let go of the people in charge of our nuclear weapons.

But yeah. He's totally gonna keep us safe.

- Repealing the ACA

Pray tell, what is your plan to replace the ACA, then? I'm about to lose the only insurance I have thanks to your party. Do you honestly believe Trump and the Republicans will come up with anything halfway decent in response, and quickly at that? Or am I just shit out of luck?

His behavior on the surface may seem abhorrent to you

No, it IS abhorrent. Bragging about grabbing women in the genitals without consent and has treated women like shit in so many other ways, who insulted a military family, who's called immigrants rapists, who throws tantrums on Twitter, and who dismisses intelligence briefings, to name but a few things, is a sign of a pretty shitty person to me. And it kind of disturbs me that none of this seems to bother you much, if at all.

I don't mind if he is at times abrasive and crude. LBJ was a filthy dirty dog and yet got the civil rights agenda through.

Again, there is a difference between "abrasive" and being an asshole.

Clinton offered nothing except managing America's decline.

And yet she won the popular vote.

Also, given all the scandal currently surrounding Trump, I would seriously quit getting on my high horse about Hillary if I were you.

He won.

The electoral vote, yes. And he had to bring in his Russian buddies to help him win.

But please, do go on believing that he won this fair and square and isn't the most unpopular president-elect in quite some time. If he gets impeached down the line, which is a distinct possibility the longer this Russian hacking business plays out, I'll just be sitting here saying, "I told you so."

 

[Irvine511]

He won.

not really, though, right? i mean, he'll be president because of a flaw in our system that privileges rural votes, but 80,000 people spread over three states compared to a 3,000,000 margin in the popular vote, plus the Kremlin and the FBI and a media that couldn't give him enough coverage because ratings? and now with an approval rating 20-ish points lower than our outgoing president and 40-ish points lower than your typical PEOTUS? that doesn't sound at all like the country wants what's happening.

i do take your points as reasons to vote for him -- i won't debate those points, right now, but i do see them as actual issues that you've taken a stance on and decided that Trump more closely aligned with your views. that's coherent to me.

i take issue with this:

I was looking for a strong leader that would have the ability to pinch off the cronyist circulatory system of money, power, and influence that dominates our federal government.

i think you're too cynical by half, and too credulous when it comes to Trump by half, and this is where i think you've been conned.

i also take issue with characterizing sexual assault and degradation of women and racist language as having a "potty mouth."

 

[Oregoropa]

Also, you're entrusting our military in the hands of a guy who goes on three am Twitter rants because somebody was "mean" to him. A guy who just recently let go of the people in charge of our nuclear weapons.

But yeah. He's totally gonna keep us safe.

I don't remember Trump pulling the strings behind an executive branch war against Libya without any kind of Congressional approval.

At least Dubya had the courtesy to ask for a terrible mistake. Proof positive that our intelligence agencies can be politicized.

The Hillary-Obama-Kerry record of Middle East meddling has brought us closer to war with Russia than any time since the Cuban Missile Crisis. Obama is funneling weapons to Rebel groups via Turkey into Syria being used to fire on Russian warplanes. Syria is a tinderbox akin to the 1914 Balkans. Obama has moved NATO troops closer to the Russian border in the Baltic states. Troops closer to Moscow than any time since 1941.

How is taking sides in the internal struggle of Syria in the best interest of the United States?

I support Trump's idea of setting up a safe zone for legitimate war refugees in the Northwest part of the country. Where there can be vetted and safely placed into host countries instead of a disorganized stream of human trafficking into Europe.

ISIS is a pariah to the entire world, except Iran and the elements in the Gulf States. Trump has vowed to hammer them as they have essentially declared war on the West already.

Reagan ramped up our military strength, nuclear, hypothetical "Star Wars" missile defense to the point where we bankrupted the USSR. Yes, we funded the Mujahadeen in the Graveyard of Empires. On the whole, the build-up froze out any direct USA-Soviet military confrontation. You might argue Grenada and Central America was the only proxy war between us. Strength was a Deterrence. The Khan family is irrelevant to the Realpolitik we find ourselves in right now.

Based upon her track record Hillary is much more in the mold of the NEOCON tradition of Dick Cheney. Many of those establishment forces gravitated to her during the election.

Behind the curtain, pro-war forces are not backing Trump. He wants to decimate ISIS, build up our Navy as a check against China in the South Pacific Sea. But does not want to go on nation building adventurism of the past 20 years.

 

[deep]

You know the former MI6 agent and current private security investigator who wrote the Trump Dossier?

You know, the real guy who wrote it and not some dopes on 4chan, who day they wrote it so that other dopes will fall for it?

Turns out he's the same guy who gave all that information to the FBI on Drop Blatter and brought down FIFA. So he's highly credible, and his entire professional reputation would be shot if he reported falsehoods.

So hey, congrats to the Christian right for voting in a guy who hires hookers to do golden showers.

Jesus would be proud. John the Baptist was a big water sports fan.

You are the same guy that was pushing the "Trump repeatedly raped a 13 year old in the 90s" crap story. This story is absurd and something only feeble-minded or people blinded by Trump hatred bias would fall for. That explains the whole CNN network.

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

You are the same guy that was pushing the "Trump repeatedly raped a 13 year old in the 90s" crap story. This story is absurd and something only feeble-minded or people blinded by Trump hatred bias would fall for. That explains the whole CNN network.

Same guy that took down FIFA.

Same guy.