Trump General Discussion III

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A fun little excerpt from Wikipedia I read (when curiously searching for how many times the EC had impacted elections (answer: only once)):


The Electoral College mechanism and the peculiar phenomenon of faithless electors provided for within it, was, in part, deliberately created as a safety measure not only to prevent a scenario of tyranny of the majority, but also to prevent the use of democracy to overthrow democracy for authoritarianism, dictatorship, kleptocracy, or other system of oppressive government.[3] American founding father Alexander Hamilton writing to Jefferson from the Constitutional Convention argued of the fear regarding the use of pure direct democracy by the majority to elect a demagogue who, rather than work for the benefit of all citizens, set out to either harm those in the minority or work only for those of the upper echelon. As articulated by Hamilton, one reason the Electoral College was created was so "that the office of President will never fall to the lot of any man who is not in an eminent degree endowed with the requisite qualifications."

Eery. The more I read about the EC in the 1800s, the more I believe that it is its duty to deny Trump the presidency.
 
But it makes more sense to vote proprotionally than to vote for someone who wasn't even on the ballot.
 
Last week, Boeing CEO criticizes Trump with respect to China.

This week:

[TWEET]806193856668692480[/TWEET]

I wonder whether people are already working on getting him impeached.
Why waste time?

however, more to the point, while i absolutely sympathize with the economic despair of many who voted for Trump, including the struggles outlined by Bob, it does seem shocking to me that they couldn't tell that electing him was both morally wrong in absolute terms, based on his behavior, and strategically idiotic based on his actual interests and commitments. is this a lack of education? intentional ignorance? willingness to adopt magical thinking? there is absolutely no evidence at all that Trump is somehow going to keep us safe by bombing ISIS and stealing the oil. there is no evidence that deporting 3-11m people is going to bring back jobs to the US, or that "illegal" immigrants are in any way connected to economic despair.
Pandering to (partly) self imposed ignorance is indeed not a solution.
 
The GOP establishment itself probably developed an impeachment playbook for Trump, but the problem they've run into is that his mouth breather voters are next level crazy even compared to the Teabaggers (whom the establishment could never figure out how to control) so now they're in a pickle.

Really the best thing for the Democrats to do is make the Republicans own Trump. Every single thing he does and doesn't do. He's all theirs. The country is all theirs and all that comes with it. These establishment fuckers will all try to wash their hands of Trump as soon as the (less than half of) voters who voted for him figure out that coal is done, cars factories are staying in Mexico and Apple shockingly isn't moving over their production of Macbook Pros to Grand Rapids. You'll quickly then see "oh we had grave concerns which we expressed" and other such nonsense coming out of the mouths of McConnell, Ryan, etc.

Our resident Trump voters here will simply disappear, the way they did when the groping tapes came out.
 
That kind of rhetoric has worked out so well for you guys the last 6 years.
You've lost 919 state legislators, 69 congressional seats, only have 17 governors, and now have lost the White House and as a result, the Supreme Court.
But by all means, keep doing the same old same old.
 
That kind of rhetoric has worked out so well for you guys the last 6 years.
You've lost 919 state legislators, 69 congressional seats, only have 17 governors, and now have lost the White House and as a result, the Supreme Court.
But by all means, keep doing the same old same old.


Maybe we should attack Mexicans and gays like you? That way we'll gain some Congress seats?


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If a state went 51/49 trump he should only get roughly 51% of the electors, but the other 49% shouldn't go to a person that the people didn't even vote for. That's not representative.


I mean what you're asking for is for the electoral college to subscribe to populism. That's not their role.

If we are going to make a stretch of a situation practical, it's important to understand how the situation works.

What you're asking for is for electors to do away with the electoral college. Not gonna happen.
 
I think you may be missing the point
Could be.
My point was that if Trump is not only allowed but actually gets elected by targeting and demonizing groups of people through lies and 'deplorable' language then a trend has been set.
 
That kind of rhetoric has worked out so well for you guys the last 6 years.
You've lost 919 state legislators, 69 congressional seats, only have 17 governors, and now have lost the White House and as a result, the Supreme Court.
But by all means, keep doing the same old same old.




Gerrymandering, wildly overrepresented rural districts, and total obstruction -- the Scalia seat is beyond the pale -- will get you far. It helps when one side at least tries to govern and the other is a suicide cult.

And despite all this, you lost by 2.6m votes and still climbing towards 3m.

And just look at how the GOP has utterly destroyed the economy of states like Louisiana and Kansas. If these people wish to continue to vote for people who ruin their lives, and then blame Obama, they are welcome to do so. Red America might as well be a developing nation when compared to the Blue States.
 
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I mean what you're asking for is for the electoral college to subscribe to populism. That's not their role.

If we are going to make a stretch of a situation practical, it's important to understand how the situation works.

What you're asking for is for electors to do away with the electoral college. Not gonna happen.

I believe you and interpret the law here differently.
 
might the cry of "states' rights" switch sides? where Red America used that phrase to justify the enslavement of a group of human beings, and then to justify legalized discrimination, Blue America might now use that concept to further economic justice for Blue America, should Red America continue to vote to self-destruct.

Why Blue States Are the Real ‘Tea Party’

By STEVEN JOHNSON
DECEMBER 3, 2016

When the modern Tea Party movement coalesced in the early days of the Obama presidency, its allusion to the political grievances of the protesters in Boston Harbor a couple of hundred years earlier seemed plausible enough: Its members felt that their taxes were too high and their interests not adequately represented by the remote authorities in Washington.

But the election of 2016 presents a challenge to that historical lineage. The home states to the Tea Party are actually doing great on the taxation and representation front. It’s the progressive blue states that should be protesting.

Start with the Electoral College. It has always deviated from the one-person-one-vote system that most Americans imagine they live in, but demographic shifts in recent years have made its prejudices more conspicuous, culminating in the striking gap between Hillary Clinton’s decisive popular vote victory and her Electoral College loss. Thanks to the two extra votes delivered to each state for its two senators, the Electoral College gives less populated states a higher weight, per capita, than it gives more populated states in the decision of who should be the next president.

This was always a betrayal of one-person-one-vote equality, in that a voter in rural Wyoming has more than three times the power of a voter in New Jersey, the country’s most densely populated state. But those imbalances have become far more glaring, thanks to a filter bubble more pronounced than anything on Facebook: the “big sort” that has concentrated Democrats in cities and inner-ring suburbs, and Republicans in exurbs and rural counties.

The right way to think about the political conflict in this country is not red state versus blue state, but red country versus blue city. And yet we are voting in a system explicitly designed to tip the scales toward the countryside.

But that’s only part of the imbalance. When the founders were plotting the Electoral College, more urban states to the north had significant debt, while the rural Southern states were in better financial shape, thanks in part to the free labor of slavery. Recall the line from “Cabinet Battle #1” from the musical “Hamilton”:

“If New York’s in debt —
Why should Virginia bear it? Our debts are paid, I’m afraid
Don’t tax the South cuz we got it made in the shade”

There’s a straight line that connects that caricature of more urban Northern states living beyond their means in the late 1700s to Ronald Reagan’s welfare queens in the 1980s: the prevailing sense that the big cities are dependent on government bailouts and benefits, while the less dense regions live responsibly. That sketch might have been accurate two centuries ago (at least if you took slavery out of the equation) but it bears no resemblance to the current economic map of the United States, where the major cities are now overwhelmingly the engines of economic growth and wealth creation — and also tax revenue.

For complicated reasons — some of which have to do with rural poverty, some of which have to do with the basic physics of supporting infrastructure in low-density regions — a disproportionate amount of per capita federal spending and benefits now flow down to the low-density states. According to a study by the Tax Foundation conducted several years ago, for every dollar New Jersey pays in federal taxes, it receives 61 cents in benefits and other federal spending. For the same dollar of taxes Wyoming spends, it gets $1.11 back.

Put those two trends together and you have a grievance worthy of the original Tea Party: more taxation with less representation. The urban states are subsidizing the rural states, and yet somehow in return, the rural states get more power at the voting booth.

You can represent the injustice of this arrangement mathematically. Think of it as two different kinds of return on investment: how much does each state receive for every dollar it pays in taxes, and how much Electoral College influence does each state get for each vote cast. Take the average of those two data points and you have a measure of which states are getting shortchanged by the system. Call it the disenfranchisement index.

The states that rank at the top of this list are the ones that are paying the highest proportion of the country’s bills while ranking lowest in terms of voting power in the Electoral College. The first 12 on the list have all voted for the Democratic candidate in at least two of the last three elections, and all but two of them went for Mrs. Clinton in 2016: New Jersey, Minnesota, Illinois, Colorado, Massachusetts, New York, Wisconsin, Michigan, Connecticut, California, Washington and Oregon.

Those states make up the overwhelming majority of Hillary Clinton’s Electoral College support in 2016. They are also paying billions of dollars of taxes and receiving only a fraction back in benefits and other federal spending. By contrast, 19 of the 25 most empowered (and largely rural) states went for Mr. Trump.

The gap between the two extremes is remarkable. South Dakota, one of the most empowered states in the country, received almost twice the return on taxes as California, the country’s most populated state, while also commanding nearly twice as much power per capita in the Electoral College. If anyone should be declaring themselves the heirs to the Boston patriots who rebelled against the unjust taxation of King George, it’s the big city blue state citizens who are funding a system that by law undercounts their votes.

To date, wealthy states like California, New York and New Jersey have not expressed much outrage at this situation, in part because they have experienced less economic anxiety than some of the struggling red states and in part because the injustice has not been as visible during the Obama years, thanks to his Electoral College victories. But as our cities get wealthier and more diverse and begin to realize how the system is genuinely “rigged” against them, tectonic forces may well be unleashed.

If a Trump administration that urban states voted overwhelmingly against starts curtailing voting rights and rolling back drug-law reform, reneging on the Paris climate accord, deporting immigrants and appointing justices that favor overturning Roe v. Wade, states like California and Massachusetts are sure to start asking hard questions about why they are subsidizing a government that doesn’t give them an equal vote.
 
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Gerrymandering, wildly overrepresented rural districts, and total obstruction -- the Scalia seat is beyond the pale -- will get you far. It helps when one side at least tries to govern and the other is a suicide cult.

And despite all this, you lost by 2.6m votes and still climbing towards 3m.

And just look at how the GOP has utterly destroyed the economy of states like Louisiana and Kansas. If these people wish to continue to vote for people who ruin their lives, and then blame Obama, they are welcome to do so. Red America might as well be a developing nation when compared to the Blue States.


You can only gerrymander so much. That may only account for about 5 of those seats. Democrats do it too in Illinois. Obama's lasting legacy will be that he decimated the Democratic Party as its leader. He was able to maintain a decent approval rating, but he was so aloof and incapable of relating to a good chunk of the country. His sycophants in the party emulated his cosmopolitan teacher's lounge attitude, when the country was craving more common sense leadership from the podium.

The obstruction was a natural pushback from the people who elected Republicans to block more bills like the Stimulus and ACA when Obama had both house. Don't forget Massachusetts sent Republican Scott Brown to fill the Kennedy seat to stop the ACA by denying the democrats a supermajority. IIRC the used the bill passed before Brown got there in conjunction with a later house bill. There was no Republican support in either body for the bill. Obama's promise that the ACA would save the average American family 2500 dollars a year is a painful joke-lie for the majority of People who have seen their costs spiral out of control. Despite the stock market numbers, and the misleading unemployment numbers, the middle class has been living in Carteresque malaise for 8 years.

Once he lost Congress Obama resorted to executive orders which can now be undone. Basically he will have no lasting legacy. He hopped on the bandwagon of marriage equality when the natural cultural progression made it a political asset. He didn't appear on the scene actively touting it to be a cornerstone of his Presidency in 2007. That would be different.

History will not be kind to Obama. May take awhile, but I think historians will place him in the bottom ten of US Presidents (Dubya will be lower)

I give him props for using SEALs to get Bin Laden rather than bomb the compound leading to a history full of what-ifs and conspiracy. Also didn't shy away from using drones when necessary to take out High Value Targets in many countries. But that's about it as far as things I liked about his Presidency. He seems like a fun guy, down to party, golf, watch sports, and loves Entourage. He would definitely qualify as a President I would pick to be in my crew for a night out on the town.


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You can only gerrymander so much. That may only account for about 5 of those seats. Democrats do it too in Illinois. Obama's lasting legacy will be that he decimated the Democratic Party as its leader. He was able to maintain a decent approval rating, but he was so aloof and incapable of relating to a good chunk of the country. His sycophants in the party emulated his cosmopolitan teacher's lounge attitude, when the country was craving more common sense leadership from the podium.

The obstruction was a natural pushback from the people who elected Republicans to block more bills like the Stimulus and ACA when Obama had both house. Don't forget Massachusetts sent Republican Scott Brown to fill the Kennedy seat to stop the ACA by denying the democrats a supermajority. IIRC the used the bill passed before Brown got there in conjunction with a later house bill. There was no Republican support in either body for the bill. Obama's promise that the ACA would save the average American family 2500 dollars a year is a painful joke-lie for the majority of People who have seen their costs spiral out of control. Despite the stock market numbers, and the misleading unemployment numbers, the middle class has been living in Carteresque malaise for 8 years.

Once he lost Congress Obama resorted to executive orders which can now be undone. Basically he will have no lasting legacy. He hopped on the bandwagon of marriage equality when the natural cultural progression made it a political asset. He didn't appear on the scene actively touting it to be a cornerstone of his Presidency in 2007. That would be different.

History will not be kind to Obama. May take awhile, but I think historians will place him in the bottom ten of US Presidents (Dubya will be lower)

I give him props for using SEALs to get Bin Laden rather than bomb the compound leading to a history full of what-ifs and conspiracy. Also didn't shy away from using drones when necessary to take out High Value Targets in many countries. But that's about it as far as things I liked about his Presidency. He seems like a fun guy, down to party, golf, watch sports, and loves Entourage. He would definitely qualify as a President I would pick to be in my crew for a night out on the town.


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:up:
 
You can only gerrymander so much. That may only account for about 5 of those seats. Democrats do it too in Illinois. Obama's lasting legacy will be that he decimated the Democratic Party as its leader. He was able to maintain a decent approval rating, but he was so aloof and incapable of relating to a good chunk of the country. His sycophants in the party emulated his cosmopolitan teacher's lounge attitude, when the country was craving more common sense leadership from the podium.

The obstruction was a natural pushback from the people who elected Republicans to block more bills like the Stimulus and ACA when Obama had both house. Don't forget Massachusetts sent Republican Scott Brown to fill the Kennedy seat to stop the ACA by denying the democrats a supermajority. IIRC the used the bill passed before Brown got there in conjunction with a later house bill. There was no Republican support in either body for the bill. Obama's promise that the ACA would save the average American family 2500 dollars a year is a painful joke-lie for the majority of People who have seen their costs spiral out of control. Despite the stock market numbers, and the misleading unemployment numbers, the middle class has been living in Carteresque malaise for 8 years.

Once he lost Congress Obama resorted to executive orders which can now be undone. Basically he will have no lasting legacy. He hopped on the bandwagon of marriage equality when the natural cultural progression made it a political asset. He didn't appear on the scene actively touting it to be a cornerstone of his Presidency in 2007. That would be different.

History will not be kind to Obama. May take awhile, but I think historians will place him in the bottom ten of US Presidents (Dubya will be lower)

I give him props for using SEALs to get Bin Laden rather than bomb the compound leading to a history full of what-ifs and conspiracy. Also didn't shy away from using drones when necessary to take out High Value Targets in many countries. But that's about it as far as things I liked about his Presidency. He seems like a fun guy, down to party, golf, watch sports, and loves Entourage. He would definitely qualify as a President I would pick to be in my crew for a night out on the town.


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Rinse and repeat.

If you repeat it long enough it becomes true.

It worked for Breitbart.


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Rinse and repeat.

If you repeat it long enough it becomes true.

It worked for Breitbart.


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At least my thoughts are a little fresher than the

-ist, -phobic, -ist, -phobic

Rinse and repeat that happens several times a day here

In the election didn't come down to what offends you, but rather what affects you


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