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Old 01-01-2017, 10:26 PM   #901
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I don't need shit, you need to open your eyes. I get it, it's embarrassing that he mocked you all on his 'thank you tour'.

Where's the rest of that trilogy?


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Hahaha. You really are a funny guy.

The 2nd part of the trilogy will come sometime this week when I get in front of my work keyboard post-Rose Bowl.


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Old 01-02-2017, 08:45 AM   #902
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I don't need shit, you need to open your eyes. I get it, it's embarrassing that he mocked you all on his 'thank you tour'.

Where's the rest of that trilogy?


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BVS, you're wasting your time - the guy is choosing to believe in his own little fantasy... not much anyone can do about that
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Old 01-02-2017, 09:04 AM   #903
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Who are 'they'? Aloof Liberals?

Well the 'fools' are in charge now. They got a bit tired of the whole nuanced Faculty lounge schtick where 'Muricans are the bad guys. 8 years of that crap got old.

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The majority of Americans? The world?

Truest statement you've ever made... A fool is, indeed, in charge.
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Old 01-02-2017, 09:21 AM   #904
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The end of September started the worst stretch of life I've gone thru to this point.

It def doesn't help to see someone like Trump taking over. I suppose that can color the goggles of perception that all is lost and done for

But seriously, it does seem like things are fucked. To be more positive I tell myself we survived Dubya, but he's brilliant compared to Trump

And the irony is my life should get BETTER under him. Less taxes, potentially less foreign workers competing for IT jobs (tho they've never hindered me before), but I still feel bad

Resolutions I find silly but decided 30 mins a day of meditation. The long term goal is to become less stressed over what I cannot control.


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Old 01-02-2017, 01:27 PM   #905
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And the irony is my life should get BETTER under him. Less taxes, potentially less foreign workers competing for IT jobs (tho they've never hindered me before)
Why do you think your life should get better under him?

In reality, your life should get better based on your own merits and actions, your own work towards your goals and not because a guy takes over a presidential term.

On a sidenote, were these foreign workers from India?
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Old 01-02-2017, 02:29 PM   #906
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Why do you think your life should get better under him?

In reality, your life should get better based on your own merits and actions, your own work towards your goals and not because a guy takes over a presidential term.

On a sidenote, were these foreign workers from India?

I agree on a philosophical level to some extent, but the reality is for me too the tax cuts will result in noticeably more take-home pay, and it's hard to not call that "life getting better" in some real sense.

Of course, if Trump does something monumentally stupid like scrap NAFTA or start a trade war with China, that will be bad for me, as my industry ebbs and flows with the business cycle. Even if a recession is semi-likely soon anyway, I'll take the higher taxes over the risk of self-created calamity.

And that's ignoring the fact that Trump is an absolute lunatic, and that the combination of normal GOP shrink-the-government talk with Trump's borderline-encouragement of racism will hurt a lot of people who are not in as lucky a place as I am in life.


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Old 01-02-2017, 02:44 PM   #907
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When I looked at the Trump tax plan, it seemed that the only people going to benefit were those making like $400k a year and up. Right now they are taxed at progressively higher rates, but under Trump if you make $800k a year you'll have taxes as if you were making $250k a year.

Which seems totally fair.
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Old 01-02-2017, 05:55 PM   #908
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And so we continue...

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Originally Posted by Oregoropa View Post
Sinus pressure is lifting so I can tackle the first question.

I think the viewpoint of conservatives has to do with Elitist behavior and opinions as opposed, to 'brick and mortar' wealth.

Trump has been described as a Blue-Collar Billionaire by his crowd.
To quote Jon Stewart when he responded to Sean Hannity using this term to describe Trump, "that's not a thing". There is nothing about him that says "blue-collar". He wouldn't know how to live the sort of life people like my family lived whatsoever.

Also, as others have noted, "his crowd" calls him that. Yeah. No bias there.

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Started with a loan/gift from his father.
Yes, a loan of, what was it, a million dollars? Yep. Totally blue-collar. Every hard-working blue-collar parent totally hands their child a million dollar loan when they're starting out on their own, right?

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Had understanding of the building-construction process which eventually evolved into business/real estate development. Respecting his employees, from the guy laying the bricks, to the doorman, to the head architect on his latest project.

There are many anecdotes of him shaking every hand of every employee in a restaurant. If he was in Mar-A-Lago on business and there happened to be Wedding in one of the ballrooms he would make it a point to stop by and meet the bride-groom and shake the parents hands.

This was a question posed in the general section of Reddit last month (not exactly friendly territory for Trumpers, outside of the r/The_Donald subreddit) Interesting read where you get a feel with how Trump interacts with Joe Blow.

People who have met or dealt with Donald Trump in person prior to the race, what was he like?
I have also heard stories of him scamming employees out of pay, families being pushed out of their homes so that one of his multiple towers can be built ('cause he really needs more of those, right?), and then there's also the accusations of him harassing women (and possibly worse) and treating his wives like shit.

If he has shown any positive behavior, it seems to be when he's in public and needs to put on a good show. Which is why it's really funny that his supporters kept claiming one of the reasons he was worth supporting was because he "didn't act like a politician". He's been engaging in that very behavior for years. He's whomever he needs to be in any given situation. You can shake people's hands all you want, it doesn't make you automatically "relatable" to the average Joe.

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For a man of considerable wealth, he has done some over-the-top marketing of his brand. Trump "The Game", Trump Steaks, Trump Vodka, buying gold furniture and shit.
None of which are things your average citizen gets to do with their finances.

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He was a private citizen. Tends to gloat. However, there are many instances of generosity that he does under the radar. Lends out his plane to get Desert Storm troops home for the Holidays. Transport an ill child that needed special breathing equipment on board.
If that is true, those are indeed good things. But it's hard to square the idea of those acts of generosity coming from the same man who thinks it's okay to judge women based on a scale of 1 to 10, or who's been accused of, again, treating women like shit (and reading his Twitter feed alone should give you a pretty good idea of how he views them). It's hard to reconcile those good acts as coming from the same man who thinks it's okay to set up a registry targeting Muslims, or who treats his employees like shit, or who doesn't care about families losing their homes.

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Trump and Obama both love to golf. Plenty instances of taking celebrities, athletes out. Trump and Brady. Both guys and Tiger. I'd be pulling that card too if I were President.
I wouldn't, 'cause I don't give a shit who the president plays golf with. Again, though, a man golfing with celebrities doesn't exactly scream "See, regular middle America folks, I'm just like you!"

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Onto the perception of Obama. I've stated that I think he will be remembered as a bad President. However, if had to pick an entourage of 4 Presidents to join me for a guys night out, he would be one of my top choices. Give me Obama, Clinton, JFK, And Teddy Roosevelt. I gather he loves to drink, watch sports, knows current pop culture. He stated back in 07' his favorite TV show was Entourage which I loved at the time. Seems like a fun guy and his ability to relate to people helped him in both elections.
I like many of those things about him, too (I don't care a whit about sports, but that's neither here nor there...). But I don't get why voters care so much about those particular aspects when it comes to deciding who to vote for, instead of just seeing them as neat bonuses. Yes, I want my president to relate to people...but I don't expect that relatability to come in the form of "Hey, he likes the same shows/music/sports teams I like!" or "He seems like someone I could have a beer with!" or whatever. Nice if that happens, sure, it's cool, but why does that matter?

Relatability, to me, comes in terms of understanding the struggles Americans are going through. And Obama grew up with a single mother. He watched her work hard to keep a roof over her family's head and see to it her son could get a good education. He is the very embodiment of the "American Dream" people like to harp on about.

Trump never had to work the way your average blue-collar worker did, or the way Obama did. He was born into wealth, he got things handed to him from his dad, and he has people do all the work for him. That is not something I can relate to, and I don't get how anyone in my economic bracket can relate to it.

Frankly, I don't think Trump's lifestyle is one people relate to so much as it's the kind they wish they had. And Trump, and the Republican Party in general, have led them to believe that they too can have this life if they make just the right amount of money to do so...

...all while they keep pushing economic policies that will hurt those very voters more than it will help them, and keep them from achieving that dream life.

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Originally Posted by Oregoropa View Post
In Presidential practice, conservatives have complained about his elitist behavior. Aloof attitude. Way back he had his Deplorable moment when he referred to those in Middle America as bitter people who clinged to their guns and religion during a closed door Fundraiser in San Francisco. That was the root of the claims of his Cosmopolitan Elitism all the way back in 2008. Broadbrush statement, that is probably rooted in some truth, but every clinger must be judged on their own attitude.
He wasn't wrong about the "guns and religion" thing, though. Every time people even TRY and put forth any attempts at gun control, no matter how mild, we immediately hear people being all, "SECOND AMENDMENT RIGHTS! You can't take my guns away!"

And anytime people express any criticism of Christianity, or try and keep the separation of church and state, the religious conservatives throw a fit and talk about the "war on Christian family values".

Maybe every clinger has their variety of reasons why they do so, but what Obama said about them clinging, period, was a stone cold fact. And I'll remind you that I live in an area of the country where religion and guns are very important to a lot of people.

As for him being aloof...well, I'm a very quiet person offline. I hang back in conversations, I only really get more talkative when I feel comfortable around someone. I've heard about how people assume that quiet people are automatically "snobby" because they're not chatting up a storm when surrounded by other people, or because they might want some alone time now and again. Is that true, or is it just that some people's personalities affect the way they react in certain situations, or interact with people. There's been studies and discussion about how a lot of people don't seem to really understand the mindset of people who are more quiet/introverted/reserved/etc., and I sense that's part of the issue here.

Obama being "aloof" doesn't mean he's elitist. It just means he has a different way of communicating with people. And "aloof" can mean different things to different people, too. There's plenty of moments when he's appeared fairly social, too, and like you yourself said, he seems like a guy one can kick back and have a beer with, so it seems like he has some connection to people, which would kinda negate the "elitist" description, would it not?

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Originally Posted by Oregoropa View Post
There were moments when Obama seemed to really want to stick it to the American people. It was an elitist move to shut down the WWII memorial during the government shutdown. The memorial itself is an open-air charity funded monument in Washington. Maybe it was his 'Art of the Deal' to end the shutdown. But the ones hurt the most were veterans (some of them dying) who arranged to take group flights to DC to see the memorial. For me that was one of his lowest moments of smug elitism.
I'll refer you to the others' explanations here.

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Other conservatives argue his narcissistic elitism is on display almost every time he gives a speech or press conference. Refers to himself as "I" in some deliveries more than 200 times. Those are a couple reasons why conservatives view Obama as elitist. The super-haters can cite many more, I'm not super hard on him (just a few moments). Every President will have those tone-deaf elite moments. Bush 41 in the supermarket check out line. Bill parsing the word "is". Trump is bound to have his moments too.
...every president has used the word "I" in speeches and talked about themselves at some point in their career, though? My goodness, if that's the metric people are using to claim someone's elitist, then we're all elitist, apparently.

And that sort of "reasoning" is all the more hilarious when you look at Trump's speeches. Virtually every single one of them was him bragging on his riches and his wealth and how he was just the best at this and that and he's got grand, huge plans and blah, blah, blah. Obama's elitist for using the word "I" in speeches, but Trump can brag on himself all over the place and that's somehow okay and NOT elitist?

I grant your point at the beginning of your post that elitism isn't just tied to material possessions. This is true. But for conservatives/Republicans to sit there and complain that Obama's elitist while completely ignoring the blatant elitism in Trump's words and behavior is...laughable. And the height of hypocrisy. Which is why I'm inclined to believe the criticisms of Obama from the right have less to do with "elitism" and more to do with certain other things they refuse to acknowledge.

But we'll get into that when we get to the next part of the discussion.

Also, I hope you're feeling better.
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Old 01-02-2017, 06:03 PM   #909
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Why do you think your life should get better under him?

In reality, your life should get better based on your own merits and actions, your own work towards your goals and not because a guy takes over a presidential term.

On a sidenote, were these foreign workers from India?

Agree with what you say, I can make my life better. Not the prez

But I was speaking from a white male, making good salary, and would see an increase in income due to lower taxes.

I do work with a ton of Indian contractors, the H1b visa program that has been used (and probably abused) by nearly every public corporation in this country.

I am still able to find work when I want it, mainly because I've been doing my job for 15 years and it's hard to find people with my skill set. BUT, that being said and to be honest, I do worry about job security because why pay me six figures to do a job when you can hire an Indian to do same thing (with maybe the same results) for 50-70k cheaper???

These contractors are def worried about their futures under trump. Not something I can really share in their grief other than my own sympathy


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Old 01-02-2017, 08:00 PM   #910
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Old 01-02-2017, 08:06 PM   #911
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Latest rumor about the desperate inauguration - some X Factor runner up was invited, says she will only perform if she can sing Strange Fruit.

Haaaaa.

Also, it's actually very surprising that the traditionally-conservative country music arena isn't a part of the inauguration. You'd have thought there would have been at least 2 or 3 well-known folks in that genres offering to play. Maybe there were invitations offered and quietly declined, because even they want no part of it.
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Old 01-02-2017, 08:10 PM   #912
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Who are 'they'? Aloof Liberals?
"Blue collar" billionaires.

All other billionaires.

Millionaires.

They all think you're useful idiots.
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Old 01-02-2017, 08:14 PM   #913
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Latest rumor about the desperate inauguration - some X Factor runner up was invited, says she will only perform if she can sing Strange Fruit.
OMFG .

Ha, indeed.

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Also, it's actually very surprising that the traditionally-conservative country music arena isn't a part of the inauguration. You'd have thought there would have been at least 2 or 3 well-known folks in that genres offering to play. Maybe there were invitations offered and quietly declined, because even they want no part of it.
That is interesting. And would give me a newfound respect for those artists if that's the case.

Trump's supporters should be glad that no big name celebrities are looking to attend the inauguration, though, I'd think, given how often conservatives moan about the "Hollywood elite" and whatnot. Wouldn't want any celebrities showing up at the presidential inauguration of a reality TV star, after all, right?
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Old 01-02-2017, 08:18 PM   #914
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Trump General Discussion III

Regarding Trump lending out his plane to Desert storm troops - unsurprisingly the story first gained traction via Trump cheerleader Sean Hannity. But, also unsurprisingly, it's not true.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/amphtm...-trump-rescue/

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Despite the rumors on base, it’s clear that Trump had nothing to do with the dispatch of the jet to the troops stranded at Camp Lejeune. The aircraft that ferried the troops was part of the Trump Shuttle fleet, at a time when Trump barely had control over the airline and was frantically trying to negotiate deals with bankers to prevent the collapse of his business empire.

Trump Shuttle had a contract with the military, and this flight home was part of that contract. Simple as that.
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Old 01-02-2017, 08:19 PM   #915
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You mean SprayTan McBabyHands* lied????

This is my shocked face.







* i literally just ran across that elsewhere on the interwebs. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to parrot it back here.
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Old 01-02-2017, 08:27 PM   #916
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Well, there's that one possible good story about Trump down, then.
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Old 01-02-2017, 09:34 PM   #917
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House Republicans, defying their top leaders, voted Monday to significantly curtail the power of an independent ethics office set up in 2008 in the aftermath of corruption scandals that sent three members of Congress to jail.
The slope gets slippier
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Old 01-02-2017, 09:38 PM   #918
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Every reason they voted, everything they know about him is a lie.


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Old 01-02-2017, 09:43 PM   #919
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Every reason they voted, everything they know about him is a lie.


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I find this statement Glorified Hyperbole
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Old 01-02-2017, 09:45 PM   #920
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I find this statement Glorified Hyperbole

Well Bob's list has completely failed, have any of yours survived?


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