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Old 12-23-2016, 04:02 PM   #721
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So we cool with a nuclear arm race?


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Old 12-23-2016, 04:17 PM   #722
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So we cool with a nuclear arm race?


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Old 12-23-2016, 05:56 PM   #723
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Joe Biden weighs in

“These are good people, man. These aren’t racists, these aren’t sexists.”

Biden: Clinton Never 'Figured it Out' in Explaining Her Run for President - ABC News
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America's Uncle. I like Joe.


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Huh. Well, I guess that settles it then. Let's make America great again!
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Old 12-23-2016, 06:02 PM   #724
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The New York co-chair of President-elect Donald Trump’s campaign made racist and sexist comments about first lady Michelle Obama in a recent interview, suggesting that she was really a man and should live in Africa.

In an interview with ArtVoice published Friday, Carl Paladino said that in 2017 the thing he would most like to see go away was Michelle Obama.

“I’d like her to return to being a male and let loose in the outback of Zimbabwe where she lives comfortably in a cave with Maxie, the gorilla,” he said.


Asked what he would like to see happen in 2017, Paladino wished death on President Barack Obama and Valerie Jarrett, one of Obama’s senior advisers.

“Obama catches mad cow disease after being caught having relations with a Herford [sic]. He dies before his trial and is buried in a cow pasture next to Valerie Jarret [sic], who died weeks prior, after being convicted of sedition and treason, when a Jihady [sic] cell mate mistook her for being a nice person and decapitated her,” Paladino said.

The Huffington Post contacted Paladino to verify the comments, but he declined to respond.

“IO [sic] don’t talk to anyone from Huffington Post. Sorry,” he wrote. He did, however, then release a statement to reporters through a representative saying that his comments had nothing to do with race.

“It has nothing to do with race. That’s the typical stance of the press when they can’t otherwise defend the acts of the person being attacked. It’s about 2 progressive elitist ingrates who have hated their country so badly and destroyed its fabric in so many respects in 8 years,” the statement said.
Whoops. Sorry, Uncle Joe!

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In a statement responding to the uproar and circulated to reporters, Mr. Paladino, who did not return a call seeking comment, said that his comments about the Obamas had “nothing to do with race,” but were about “two progressive elitists” and the “middle class, silent majority, rising up.”

“And yes, it’s about a little deprecating humor which America lost for a long time,” he wrote. “Merry Christmas and tough luck if you don’t like my answer.”
Ohhhh right... that's what I keep hearing. It's not race, it's the middle class rising up!

Merry Christmas, everyone!
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Old 12-23-2016, 06:19 PM   #725
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Can somebody please explain to me how the right can sit there and claim the Obamas are "elitists" while completely ignoring the fact that their party's president-elect has actual literal golden pieces of furniture in his homes and multiple mansions and properties?

As for the race thing, yes, Biden is trying to be nice and help make this transition smoother. And I get what he's saying about Trump supporters being people we know, and working-class frustration and all that (though, again, I take some issue with that narrative, but I've already ranted about that elsewhere).

But anyone who refuses to acknowledge the racist/sexist/homophobic elements of the Trump supporter base is AT BEST being incredibly naive about it. WHY are Trump supporters in this thread so hellbent on refusing to even discuss those troubling aspects of the Trump voter base? Do you think if you don't talk about it it doesn't exist? Do you honestly think it's not that bad, or that women, black people, Muslims, and LGBT folks have nothing to worry about under a Trump presidency? Is there some sort of context for their attitudes that we're somehow missing? I don't get it.

Like I said, back in 2008 the right would not stop harping on about Bill Ayers and Reverend Wright in relation to Obama. They made a huge deal out of how who you associated with mattered, and used that as their justification for why Obama was supposedly a bad choice for president.

Now anytime people bring up David Duke's support of Trump, or the fact that KKK members actually held victory rallies after Trump won the election, or the fact that he's working with people who run far-right blogs that spread a lot of vicious attitudes about various minority groups...suddenly the right's gone awfully quiet, or doesn't seem to be fazed by any of that and dismisses anyone's concerns as "liberal hysteria" or whatever. What happened to "associations matter"?
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Old 12-23-2016, 06:33 PM   #726
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Trump's reaction to Putin's Happy New Year letter reassures me that he has never actually read diplomatic communication before.


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Old 12-23-2016, 06:51 PM   #727
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But anyone who refuses to acknowledge the racist/sexist/homophobic elements of the Trump supporter base is AT BEST being incredibly naive about it. WHY are Trump supporters in this thread so hellbent on refusing to even discuss those troubling aspects of the Trump voter base? Do you think if you don't talk about it it doesn't exist? Do you honestly think it's not that bad, or that women, black people, Muslims, and LGBT folks have nothing to worry about under a Trump presidency? Is there some sort of context for their attitudes that we're somehow missing? I don't get it.
Moonlit,

You often bring this talking point up.

Where do you get your news? TV/websites/radio?

In this day and age people can pick their media like going through a Chinese Restaurant Menu. This from column A, this from column B, and this from column C.

My sister did this on the extreme liberal side, and Trump became an absolute monster in her mind. It was magnified to the nth degree

I chose to watch FNC, used an app called "63red" that ingested Historical Conservative Outlets, from time to time read articles outside of my Trump-Comfort zone. Just to see the opposition viewpoint. Watched a bit of CNN and Morning Joe clips.

The best thing was to watch the rallies-debates of Trump and Clinton unfiltered.

That is how I chose my information. I tried not to have full tunnelvision. Not accusing you of that.

If you want to understand what you might be missing, I'd recommend watching Fox News from 5-7 pm on a weeknight. 5-6 pm is The Five. 6-7 is Special Report with Brett Baier. It is not full on Trump worship. In fact you have several prominent Trump skeptics . . . George Will, Charles Krauthammer, Juan Williams
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Old 12-23-2016, 07:06 PM   #728
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Originally Posted by Oregoropa View Post
Moonlit,



You often bring this talking point up.



Where do you get your news? TV/websites/radio?



In this day and age people can pick their media like going through a Chinese Restaurant Menu. This from column A, this from column B, and this from column C.



My sister did this on the extreme liberal side, and Trump became an absolute monster in her mind. It was magnified to the nth degree



I chose to watch FNC, used an app called "63red" that ingested Historical Conservative Outlets, from time to time read articles outside of my Trump-Comfort zone. Just to see the opposition viewpoint. Watched a bit of CNN and Morning Joe clips.



The best thing was to watch the rallies-debates of Trump and Clinton unfiltered.



That is how I chose my information. I tried not to have full tunnelvision. Not accusing you of that.



If you want to understand what you might be missing, I'd recommend watching Fox News from 5-7 pm on a weeknight. 5-6 pm is The Five. 6-7 is Special Report with Brett Baier. It is not full on Trump worship. In fact you have several prominent Trump skeptics . . . George Will, Charles Krauthammer, Juan Williams

You see? THIS is irony.

Awful, insulting irony.


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Old 12-23-2016, 07:15 PM   #729
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You see? THIS is irony.

Awful, insulting irony.


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Please explain BVS . . . I'm trying to inspire a discussion. Would it make you feel better if I just assume that everybody immerses themselves amount of diverse media you do? Which I know you do. You listen to Hannity I know.

Moonlit asked what she is missing. Her viewpoint of the Trump movement and mine are like oil and water. Finally trying to engage with her.
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Old 12-23-2016, 07:47 PM   #730
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Please explain BVS . . . I'm trying to inspire a discussion. Would it make you feel better if I just assume that everybody immerses themselves amount of diverse media you do? Which I know you do. You listen to Hannity I know.



Moonlit asked what she is missing. Her viewpoint of the Trump movement and mine are like oil and water. Finally trying to engage with her.

Someone who fell for the fake Muslim poll, the Snopes email, and believes Obama will rank amongst the lowest in the history books is the last one to be giving such lectures. You live in an information bubble, and this has been pointed out and proven to you for years.

But more to the point, she's exactly right. You yourself said you're not interested in having the discussion, because racism and sexism doesn't "affect" people, jobs do.

Racism and sexism played a role in Trump's campaign and win. Period. That is fact. It doesn't mean you are a racist, but the avoidance of the discussion is excruciating.


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Old 12-23-2016, 08:08 PM   #731
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Someone who fell for the fake Muslim poll, the Snopes email, and believes Obama will rank amongst the lowest in the history books is the last one to be giving such lectures. You live in an information bubble, and this has been pointed out and proven to you for years.

But more to the point, she's exactly right. You yourself said you're not interested in having the discussion, because racism and sexism doesn't "affect" people, jobs do.

Racism and sexism played a role in Trump's campaign and win. Period. That is fact. It doesn't mean you are a racist, but the avoidance of the discussion is excruciating.


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I do believe Obama will be ranked as one of the worst Presidents, and that is a personal opinion I explained. If you say I live in a bubble . . . It is my right to ascertain if other people live in a bubble on the opposite end of the spectrum.

A discussion forum such as this is a good way to get out of the bubbles.

What you describe as "fact", lies somewhere on a sliding scale of reality, that has existed in every election cycle. This is up for debate. Did people vote for Trump because they don't want a woman as President, sure.

We had a back and forth earlier this month. I'm not avoiding the discussion this time with Moonlit (who I have bypassed in the past) because it seemed to be a repeated mantra of Trump supporters are -ists, - phobic. I'm ready to engage with Moonlit in a substantive way. We seem on such opposite ends of the spectrum on how we view the 2016 election. It's almost 2 months in the rear view.

Here is a question I have. Besides the views of Mike Pence, how has Trump been homophobic in his campaign or personal life? It can be argued he is the most pro-LGBT Presidential candidate the GOP has ever run
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Old 12-23-2016, 08:44 PM   #732
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I do believe Obama will be ranked as one of the worst Presidents, and that is a personal opinion I explained. If you say I live in a bubble . . . It is my right to ascertain if other people live in a bubble on the opposite end of the spectrum.

A discussion forum such as this is a good way to get out of the bubbles.
Opinions and feelings only go so far though, which is what we've been trying to explain for over a year now. I read your explanations, none hold true, it's not how history is written. When have you ever read about the state of the party when reading about a president? History doesn't care about that. If anything you should realize that history is kinder to presidents. Take Reagan for example, an extremely divisive president, absolutely hated by the left when he left the office, but you wouldn't know that now. Obama has a high approval rating leaving the office, and history like all other presidents before will even improve on that. This why I say you're isolated, you don't seem to have the ability to look at this from a worldview prism, just a right wing media one.
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What you describe as "fact", lies somewhere on a sliding scale of reality, that has existed in every election cycle. This is up for debate. Did people vote for Trump because they don't want a woman as President, sure.
When I can point to neo-nazi retweets, horrific endorsements, several dozen direct quotes, his appointees, and historical evidence then no, it's not really up for debate, it's fact.

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Here is a question I have. Besides the views of Mike Pence, how has Trump been homophobic in his campaign or personal life? It can be argued he is the most pro-LGBT Presidential candidate the GOP has ever run
When it comes to the GOP spectrum, you're probably right, which is exactly why I believe he chose Pence to keep that vote.
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Old 12-23-2016, 08:49 PM   #733
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Please explain BVS . . . I'm trying to inspire a discussion. Would it make you feel better if I just assume that everybody immerses themselves amount of diverse media you do? Which I know you do. You listen to Hannity I know.



Moonlit asked what she is missing. Her viewpoint of the Trump movement and mine are like oil and water. Finally trying to engage with her.


This is the problem tho.

Hannity isn't "diverse." Hannity is propaganda.
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Old 12-23-2016, 08:53 PM   #734
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There is no point trying to rationalize with completely irrational people who seemingly think that Trump's shit smells like roses.

I'd be interested in hearing more on Vlad's issues with the portrayal of Russia in the US media. I mean I think some biases are obvious, but the more subtle things. Personally, I and most those who had the pleasure of being raised in Eastern Europe are more than familiar with Russian hegemony and I hate to suggest it is a cultural trait, but I often think if it looks like a duck and it quacks like a duck...
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Old 12-23-2016, 09:01 PM   #735
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This is the problem tho.

Hannity isn't "diverse." Hannity is propaganda.
I could say CNN is propaganda that directly colluded with the Hillary campaign by feeding her debate questions in advance versus Bernie. Also asking the DNC what questions they should ask Trump in an interview.

Have you ever listened to Hannity? If you want to try maybe I'll give somebody on NPR a shot.


Quote:
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This why I say you're isolated
You're damn right. Isolated in the analysis that Trump was strong in the Rust Belt. Isolated in that Trump would get over 300 electoral votes.

We can talk analysis or have just have emotional reactions and call each other unhinged . . . I'll stay isolated. If you guys-gals want to bounce off ideas about how to gain congressional seats back for liberal politicians I'm here to give some advice.
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Old 12-23-2016, 09:26 PM   #736
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Oregoropa, I've spent a fair bit of time reading Breitbart since you suggested it. Especially the comment sections that follow the stories. Yes, ok, that's a different point of view but it isn't in the slightest bit balanced or fair. It's utter propaganda. And the comments are horrific. Not in how they attack ideas, but in the way they talk about and attack people. Liberals all need to shut up or die, basically.
That's your own people talking about your own people. And this is, like you say, two months after an election you won!

Where somebody gets their news from is irrelevant when what is disturbing them are direct quotes, tweets, appointments and policy ideas of the president elect.

Some of those quotes, tweets, appointments and policy ideas scare the shit out of people.

Rather than repeatedly holding up Trump's admittedly and comparatively open stance on lgbt issues as proof liberals are overreacting, why don't you take the chance to address the stuff you know damn well liberals are scared of. The direct, indisputable stuff feom Trump?
Not attacking you at all, I really respect the korero from you.

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Old 12-23-2016, 10:11 PM   #737
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There is no point trying to rationalize with completely irrational people who seemingly think that Trump's shit smells like roses.

I'd be interested in hearing more on Vlad's issues with the portrayal of Russia in the US media. I mean I think some biases are obvious, but the more subtle things. Personally, I and most those who had the pleasure of being raised in Eastern Europe are more than familiar with Russian hegemony and I hate to suggest it is a cultural trait, but I often think if it looks like a duck and it quacks like a duck...
It's not about Russia's status as a regional (or world) power - which of course, is not a positive. My issues have more to do with the often ridiculous portrayals, such as the inanity of magazine covers and the ease of which any old shit written about Russia is taken seriously (I've seen images of Putin and Trump with a hammer and sickle background, for crying out loud).

The fact that a number of liberal pundits have amped up the Cold War rhetoric (see Eichenwald, Olbermann) is deeply disconcerting to me and in some cases a distaste towards the Russian people in general (see 'anti-racist campaigner' Tim Wise's recent tweet). Additionally, the Russian figures that western MSM does pay attention and/or respect to are often insultingly pathetic. I mean, Garry Kasparov, really? A man whose grasp of politics is embarrassingly juvenile does not deserve credibility.

Unfortunately, in some cases, Russophobia is indeed a very real thing from my perspective.
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Old 12-23-2016, 10:13 PM   #738
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I could say CNN is propaganda that directly colluded with the Hillary campaign by feeding her debate questions in advance versus Bernie. Also asking the DNC what questions they should ask Trump in an interview.

Have you ever listened to Hannity? If you want to try maybe I'll give somebody on NPR a shot.


Total bullshit. Total.

Hannity and NPR don't even belong in the same sentence.

And I have listened to Hannity. The question they were pondering was whether or not Obama wanted a terrorist attack, because he hates America, or if a terrorist attack would cause a drop in his polls and thereby prevent him from further enacting his liberal agenda.

It's fucking bullshit. And you are stupid to consider it a legitimate news source.

And I say that with respect, because you are not a stupid person.
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Old 12-23-2016, 10:26 PM   #739
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I could say CNN is propaganda that directly colluded with the Hillary campaign by feeding her debate questions in advance versus Bernie. Also asking the DNC what questions they should ask Trump in an interview.

Have you ever listened to Hannity? If you want to try maybe I'll give somebody on NPR a shot.




You're damn right. Isolated in the analysis that Trump was strong in the Rust Belt. Isolated in that Trump would get over 300 electoral votes.

We can talk analysis or have just have emotional reactions and call each other unhinged . . . I'll stay isolated. If you guys-gals want to bounce off ideas about how to gain congressional seats back for liberal politicians I'm here to give some advice.

But this is not about analysis...

#beatingheadagainstwall


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Old 12-24-2016, 06:52 AM   #740
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Please explain BVS . . . I'm trying to inspire a discussion. Would it make you feel better if I just assume that everybody immerses themselves amount of diverse media you do? Which I know you do. You listen to Hannity I know.

Moonlit asked what she is missing. Her viewpoint of the Trump movement and mine are like oil and water. Finally trying to engage with her.
I'll explain

Moonlit made a post about how our right posters don't address the white robe wearing elephant in the Trump campaign/cabinet, even referencing moments where the right criticised Obama for his thin associations...

... And you didn't address it. Again.

You chime right in when Joe Biden says "hey, these guys aren't racist!" (psst... he's playing politics in case he runs in 2020)... how about a comment on Trump's New York campaign head and close associate calling Michelle Obama a gorilla? Not a Breitbart comment section quote... the head of Trump's campaign in his home state.
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