Trump General Discussion III

[BEAL]

So we cool with a nuclear arm race?


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[Oregoropa]

So we cool with a nuclear arm race?


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My new Avatar is

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

Joe Biden weighs in

“These are good people, man. These aren’t racists, these aren’t sexists.”

Biden: Clinton Never 'Figured it Out' in Explaining Her Run for President - ABC News

America's Uncle. I like Joe.


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Huh. Well, I guess that settles it then. Let's make America great again!

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

The New York co-chair of President-elect Donald Trump’s campaign made racist and sexist comments about first lady Michelle Obama in a recent interview, suggesting that she was really a man and should live in Africa.

In an interview with ArtVoice published Friday, Carl Paladino said that in 2017 the thing he would most like to see go away was Michelle Obama.

“I’d like her to return to being a male and let loose in the outback of Zimbabwe where she lives comfortably in a cave with Maxie, the gorilla,” he said.

Asked what he would like to see happen in 2017, Paladino wished death on President Barack Obama and Valerie Jarrett, one of Obama’s senior advisers.

“Obama catches mad cow disease after being caught having relations with a Herford [sic]. He dies before his trial and is buried in a cow pasture next to Valerie Jarret [sic], who died weeks prior, after being convicted of sedition and treason, when a Jihady [sic] cell mate mistook her for being a nice person and decapitated her,” Paladino said.

The Huffington Post contacted Paladino to verify the comments, but he declined to respond.

“IO [sic] don’t talk to anyone from Huffington Post. Sorry,” he wrote. He did, however, then release a statement to reporters through a representative saying that his comments had nothing to do with race.

“It has nothing to do with race. That’s the typical stance of the press when they can’t otherwise defend the acts of the person being attacked. It’s about 2 progressive elitist ingrates who have hated their country so badly and destroyed its fabric in so many respects in 8 years,” the statement said.

Whoops. Sorry, Uncle Joe!

In a statement responding to the uproar and circulated to reporters, Mr. Paladino, who did not return a call seeking comment, said that his comments about the Obamas had “nothing to do with race,” but were about “two progressive elitists” and the “middle class, silent majority, rising up.”

“And yes, it’s about a little deprecating humor which America lost for a long time,” he wrote. “Merry Christmas and tough luck if you don’t like my answer.”

Ohhhh right... that's what I keep hearing. It's not race, it's the middle class rising up!

Merry Christmas, everyone!

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

Can somebody please explain to me how the right can sit there and claim the Obamas are "elitists" while completely ignoring the fact that their party's president-elect has actual literal golden pieces of furniture in his homes and multiple mansions and properties?

As for the race thing, yes, Biden is trying to be nice and help make this transition smoother. And I get what he's saying about Trump supporters being people we know, and working-class frustration and all that (though, again, I take some issue with that narrative, but I've already ranted about that elsewhere).

But anyone who refuses to acknowledge the racist/sexist/homophobic elements of the Trump supporter base is AT BEST being incredibly naive about it. WHY are Trump supporters in this thread so hellbent on refusing to even discuss those troubling aspects of the Trump voter base? Do you think if you don't talk about it it doesn't exist? Do you honestly think it's not that bad, or that women, black people, Muslims, and LGBT folks have nothing to worry about under a Trump presidency? Is there some sort of context for their attitudes that we're somehow missing? I don't get it.

Like I said, back in 2008 the right would not stop harping on about Bill Ayers and Reverend Wright in relation to Obama. They made a huge deal out of how who you associated with mattered, and used that as their justification for why Obama was supposedly a bad choice for president.

Now anytime people bring up David Duke's support of Trump, or the fact that KKK members actually held victory rallies after Trump won the election, or the fact that he's working with people who run far-right blogs that spread a lot of vicious attitudes about various minority groups...suddenly the right's gone awfully quiet, or doesn't seem to be fazed by any of that and dismisses anyone's concerns as "liberal hysteria" or whatever. What happened to "associations matter"?

 

[gump]

Trump's reaction to Putin's Happy New Year letter reassures me that he has never actually read diplomatic communication before.


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[Oregoropa]

But anyone who refuses to acknowledge the racist/sexist/homophobic elements of the Trump supporter base is AT BEST being incredibly naive about it. WHY are Trump supporters in this thread so hellbent on refusing to even discuss those troubling aspects of the Trump voter base? Do you think if you don't talk about it it doesn't exist? Do you honestly think it's not that bad, or that women, black people, Muslims, and LGBT folks have nothing to worry about under a Trump presidency? Is there some sort of context for their attitudes that we're somehow missing? I don't get it.

Moonlit,

You often bring this talking point up.

Where do you get your news? TV/websites/radio?

In this day and age people can pick their media like going through a Chinese Restaurant Menu. This from column A, this from column B, and this from column C.

My sister did this on the extreme liberal side, and Trump became an absolute monster in her mind. It was magnified to the nth degree

I chose to watch FNC, used an app called "63red" that ingested Historical Conservative Outlets, from time to time read articles outside of my Trump-Comfort zone. Just to see the opposition viewpoint. Watched a bit of CNN and Morning Joe clips.

The best thing was to watch the rallies-debates of Trump and Clinton unfiltered.

That is how I chose my information. I tried not to have full tunnelvision. Not accusing you of that.

If you want to understand what you might be missing, I'd recommend watching Fox News from 5-7 pm on a weeknight. 5-6 pm is The Five. 6-7 is Special Report with Brett Baier. It is not full on Trump worship. In fact you have several prominent Trump skeptics . . . George Will, Charles Krauthammer, Juan Williams

 

[BVS]

Moonlit,



You often bring this talking point up.



Where do you get your news? TV/websites/radio?



In this day and age people can pick their media like going through a Chinese Restaurant Menu. This from column A, this from column B, and this from column C.



My sister did this on the extreme liberal side, and Trump became an absolute monster in her mind. It was magnified to the nth degree



I chose to watch FNC, used an app called "63red" that ingested Historical Conservative Outlets, from time to time read articles outside of my Trump-Comfort zone. Just to see the opposition viewpoint. Watched a bit of CNN and Morning Joe clips.



The best thing was to watch the rallies-debates of Trump and Clinton unfiltered.



That is how I chose my information. I tried not to have full tunnelvision. Not accusing you of that.



If you want to understand what you might be missing, I'd recommend watching Fox News from 5-7 pm on a weeknight. 5-6 pm is The Five. 6-7 is Special Report with Brett Baier. It is not full on Trump worship. In fact you have several prominent Trump skeptics . . . George Will, Charles Krauthammer, Juan Williams

You see? THIS is irony.

Awful, insulting irony.


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[Oregoropa]

You see? THIS is irony.

Awful, insulting irony.


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Please explain BVS . . . I'm trying to inspire a discussion. Would it make you feel better if I just assume that everybody immerses themselves amount of diverse media you do? Which I know you do. You listen to Hannity I know.

Moonlit asked what she is missing. Her viewpoint of the Trump movement and mine are like oil and water. Finally trying to engage with her.

 

[BVS]

Please explain BVS . . . I'm trying to inspire a discussion. Would it make you feel better if I just assume that everybody immerses themselves amount of diverse media you do? Which I know you do. You listen to Hannity I know.



Moonlit asked what she is missing. Her viewpoint of the Trump movement and mine are like oil and water. Finally trying to engage with her.

Someone who fell for the fake Muslim poll, the Snopes email, and believes Obama will rank amongst the lowest in the history books is the last one to be giving such lectures. You live in an information bubble, and this has been pointed out and proven to you for years.

But more to the point, she's exactly right. You yourself said you're not interested in having the discussion, because racism and sexism doesn't "affect" people, jobs do.

Racism and sexism played a role in Trump's campaign and win. Period. That is fact. It doesn't mean you are a racist, but the avoidance of the discussion is excruciating.


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[Oregoropa]

Someone who fell for the fake Muslim poll, the Snopes email, and believes Obama will rank amongst the lowest in the history books is the last one to be giving such lectures. You live in an information bubble, and this has been pointed out and proven to you for years.

But more to the point, she's exactly right. You yourself said you're not interested in having the discussion, because racism and sexism doesn't "affect" people, jobs do.

Racism and sexism played a role in Trump's campaign and win. Period. That is fact. It doesn't mean you are a racist, but the avoidance of the discussion is excruciating.


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I do believe Obama will be ranked as one of the worst Presidents, and that is a personal opinion I explained. If you say I live in a bubble . . . It is my right to ascertain if other people live in a bubble on the opposite end of the spectrum.

A discussion forum such as this is a good way to get out of the bubbles.

What you describe as "fact", lies somewhere on a sliding scale of reality, that has existed in every election cycle. This is up for debate. Did people vote for Trump because they don't want a woman as President, sure.

We had a back and forth earlier this month. I'm not avoiding the discussion this time with Moonlit (who I have bypassed in the past) because it seemed to be a repeated mantra of Trump supporters are -ists, - phobic. I'm ready to engage with Moonlit in a substantive way. We seem on such opposite ends of the spectrum on how we view the 2016 election. It's almost 2 months in the rear view.

Here is a question I have. Besides the views of Mike Pence, how has Trump been homophobic in his campaign or personal life? It can be argued he is the most pro-LGBT Presidential candidate the GOP has ever run

 

[BVS]

I do believe Obama will be ranked as one of the worst Presidents, and that is a personal opinion I explained. If you say I live in a bubble . . . It is my right to ascertain if other people live in a bubble on the opposite end of the spectrum.

A discussion forum such as this is a good way to get out of the bubbles.

Opinions and feelings only go so far though, which is what we've been trying to explain for over a year now. I read your explanations, none hold true, it's not how history is written. When have you ever read about the state of the party when reading about a president? History doesn't care about that. If anything you should realize that history is kinder to presidents. Take Reagan for example, an extremely divisive president, absolutely hated by the left when he left the office, but you wouldn't know that now. Obama has a high approval rating leaving the office, and history like all other presidents before will even improve on that. This why I say you're isolated, you don't seem to have the ability to look at this from a worldview prism, just a right wing media one.

What you describe as "fact", lies somewhere on a sliding scale of reality, that has existed in every election cycle. This is up for debate. Did people vote for Trump because they don't want a woman as President, sure.

When I can point to neo-nazi retweets, horrific endorsements, several dozen direct quotes, his appointees, and historical evidence then no, it's not really up for debate, it's fact.

Here is a question I have. Besides the views of Mike Pence, how has Trump been homophobic in his campaign or personal life? It can be argued he is the most pro-LGBT Presidential candidate the GOP has ever run

When it comes to the GOP spectrum, you're probably right, which is exactly why I believe he chose Pence to keep that vote.

 

[Irvine511]

Please explain BVS . . . I'm trying to inspire a discussion. Would it make you feel better if I just assume that everybody immerses themselves amount of diverse media you do? Which I know you do. You listen to Hannity I know.



Moonlit asked what she is missing. Her viewpoint of the Trump movement and mine are like oil and water. Finally trying to engage with her.

This is the problem tho.

Hannity isn't "diverse." Hannity is propaganda.

 

[anitram]

There is no point trying to rationalize with completely irrational people who seemingly think that Trump's shit smells like roses.

I'd be interested in hearing more on Vlad's issues with the portrayal of Russia in the US media. I mean I think some biases are obvious, but the more subtle things. Personally, I and most those who had the pleasure of being raised in Eastern Europe are more than familiar with Russian hegemony and I hate to suggest it is a cultural trait, but I often think if it looks like a duck and it quacks like a duck...

 

[Oregoropa]

This is the problem tho.

Hannity isn't "diverse." Hannity is propaganda.

I could say CNN is propaganda that directly colluded with the Hillary campaign by feeding her debate questions in advance versus Bernie. Also asking the DNC what questions they should ask Trump in an interview.

Have you ever listened to Hannity? If you want to try maybe I'll give somebody on NPR a shot.

This why I say you're isolated

You're damn right. Isolated in the analysis that Trump was strong in the Rust Belt. Isolated in that Trump would get over 300 electoral votes.

We can talk analysis or have just have emotional reactions and call each other unhinged . . . I'll stay isolated. If you guys-gals want to bounce off ideas about how to gain congressional seats back for liberal politicians I'm here to give some advice.

 

[kiwilad]

Oregoropa, I've spent a fair bit of time reading Breitbart since you suggested it. Especially the comment sections that follow the stories. Yes, ok, that's a different point of view but it isn't in the slightest bit balanced or fair. It's utter propaganda. And the comments are horrific. Not in how they attack ideas, but in the way they talk about and attack people. Liberals all need to shut up or die, basically.
That's your own people talking about your own people. And this is, like you say, two months after an election you won!

Where somebody gets their news from is irrelevant when what is disturbing them are direct quotes, tweets, appointments and policy ideas of the president elect.

Some of those quotes, tweets, appointments and policy ideas scare the shit out of people.

Rather than repeatedly holding up Trump's admittedly and comparatively open stance on lgbt issues as proof liberals are overreacting, why don't you take the chance to address the stuff you know damn well liberals are scared of. The direct, indisputable stuff feom Trump?
Not attacking you at all, I really respect the korero from you.

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[Vlad n U 2]

There is no point trying to rationalize with completely irrational people who seemingly think that Trump's shit smells like roses.

I'd be interested in hearing more on Vlad's issues with the portrayal of Russia in the US media. I mean I think some biases are obvious, but the more subtle things. Personally, I and most those who had the pleasure of being raised in Eastern Europe are more than familiar with Russian hegemony and I hate to suggest it is a cultural trait, but I often think if it looks like a duck and it quacks like a duck...

It's not about Russia's status as a regional (or world) power - which of course, is not a positive. My issues have more to do with the often ridiculous portrayals, such as the inanity of magazine covers and the ease of which any old shit written about Russia is taken seriously (I've seen images of Putin and Trump with a hammer and sickle background, for crying out loud).

The fact that a number of liberal pundits have amped up the Cold War rhetoric (see Eichenwald, Olbermann) is deeply disconcerting to me and in some cases a distaste towards the Russian people in general (see 'anti-racist campaigner' Tim Wise's recent tweet). Additionally, the Russian figures that western MSM does pay attention and/or respect to are often insultingly pathetic. I mean, Garry Kasparov, really? A man whose grasp of politics is embarrassingly juvenile does not deserve credibility.

Unfortunately, in some cases, Russophobia is indeed a very real thing from my perspective.

 

[Irvine511]

I could say CNN is propaganda that directly colluded with the Hillary campaign by feeding her debate questions in advance versus Bernie. Also asking the DNC what questions they should ask Trump in an interview.

Have you ever listened to Hannity? If you want to try maybe I'll give somebody on NPR a shot.

Total bullshit. Total.

Hannity and NPR don't even belong in the same sentence.

And I have listened to Hannity. The question they were pondering was whether or not Obama wanted a terrorist attack, because he hates America, or if a terrorist attack would cause a drop in his polls and thereby prevent him from further enacting his liberal agenda.

It's fucking bullshit. And you are stupid to consider it a legitimate news source.

And I say that with respect, because you are not a stupid person.

 

[BVS]

I could say CNN is propaganda that directly colluded with the Hillary campaign by feeding her debate questions in advance versus Bernie. Also asking the DNC what questions they should ask Trump in an interview.

Have you ever listened to Hannity? If you want to try maybe I'll give somebody on NPR a shot.




You're damn right. Isolated in the analysis that Trump was strong in the Rust Belt. Isolated in that Trump would get over 300 electoral votes.

We can talk analysis or have just have emotional reactions and call each other unhinged . . . I'll stay isolated. If you guys-gals want to bounce off ideas about how to gain congressional seats back for liberal politicians I'm here to give some advice.

But this is not about analysis...

#beatingheadagainstwall


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[Headache in a Suitcase]

Please explain BVS . . . I'm trying to inspire a discussion. Would it make you feel better if I just assume that everybody immerses themselves amount of diverse media you do? Which I know you do. You listen to Hannity I know.

Moonlit asked what she is missing. Her viewpoint of the Trump movement and mine are like oil and water. Finally trying to engage with her.

I'll explain

Moonlit made a post about how our right posters don't address the white robe wearing elephant in the Trump campaign/cabinet, even referencing moments where the right criticised Obama for his thin associations...

... And you didn't address it. Again.

You chime right in when Joe Biden says "hey, these guys aren't racist!" (psst... he's playing politics in case he runs in 2020)... how about a comment on Trump's New York campaign head and close associate calling Michelle Obama a gorilla? Not a Breitbart comment section quote... the head of Trump's campaign in his home state.

 

[BoMac]

There are millions of people who are scared for their lives. This is not about economic policy, this is about life and death.

And these people are not imagining it, because ever since day 1 Trump has said the most vile, misogynistic, racist things that are legitimately terrifying.

How can anybody be so selfish and blind to not see this? How arrogant can you be? Where is your humanity? You dismiss these fears, but in the end bombs and war do no discriminate, so everyone will be affected.

This is insanity, pure and simple. America has lost its way since Nov. 8 and the world will pay the price.



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[Irvine511]

I'll explain

Moonlit made a post about how our right posters don't address the white robe wearing elephant in the Trump campaign/cabinet, even referencing moments where the right criticised Obama for his thin associations...

... And you didn't address it. Again.

You chime right in when Joe Biden says "hey, these guys aren't racist!" (psst... he's playing politics in case he runs in 2020)... how about a comment on Trump's New York campaign head and close associate calling Michelle Obama a gorilla? Not a Breitbart comment section quote... the head of Trump's campaign in his home state.

Or that the "birther" issue -- the issue that gave birth to candidate Trump -- is itself utterly racist.

 

[Irvine511]

There are millions of people who are scared for their lives. This is not about economic policy, this is about life and death.

And these people are not imagining it, because ever since day 1 Trump has said the most vile, misogynistic, racist things that are legitimately terrifying.

How can anybody be so selfish and blind to not see this? How arrogant can you be? Where is your humanity? You dismiss these fears, but in the end bombs and war do no discriminate, so everyone will be affected.

This is insanity, pure and simple. America has lost its way since Nov. 8 and the world will pay the price.



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What gives me hope is knowing that Trump lost the election by 3m voted. He won on a technicality, and it's illuminated the outrageous privileging of rural lives and votes over urban lives and votes, but he is a minority president enacting an agenda rejected by a clear majority of the population.

 

[Bluer White]

We can talk analysis or have just have emotional reactions and call each other unhinged . . . I'll stay isolated. If you guys-gals want to bounce off ideas about how to gain congressional seats back for liberal politicians I'm here to give some advice.

The pendulum swings back and forth naturally. We're already at least six years into a sea change at the local, state, and national levels. I bet it'll swing back the other way a bit sooner or later, maybe sooner. Always seems to. Like somebody said once, "Eighty percent of life is showing up." So true !

 

[bono_212]

Speak truthfully. Not the party line: do you honestly believe it was within precident, within the correct usage of the balances of power, for this have gone on as long as it has? Your opinion only, not what other people say. Your interpretation of how the government is meant to run.

Still waiting...

 

[Pearl]

Trump Trying To ‘Fulfill Fantasy’ Of Teaming Up With Russia, Political Writer Says « CBS Detroit

Journalist and author Sarah Kendziorisn’t surprised by Trump’s open dialogue about the possibility of using nuclear arms. She says it falls right in line with his history of wanting to work with Russian president Vladimir Putin.

“Trump has been interested in nuclear weapons since at least 1984, where he said he learned everything he needs to know about them within an hour and a half of studying them,” Kendzior said live on WWJ Newsradio 950

“Where it gets interesting is in 1987, where Trump came up with a plan to partner with the Soviet Union on nuclear weapons, basically for the two empires to use nuclear weapons in tandem in order to intimidate other countries,” Kendzior said.

Trump’s visits to Russia in the 1980s are well-documented in archives from The Washington Post,as Kendzior points out.

However, Trump’s ultimate plan may not be to start a nuclear arms race with the Russians and return the world to the Cold War era. Kendzior says it’s more likely that Trump would prefer to align with Putin to bully other countries.

“He talked about a plan to work with them, for example: to hurt Pakistan, to threaten them with nukesuntil people were rioting, starving in the streets and in his words “couldn’t even get Band Aids,'” Kendzior said.

Putin released a statement similar to what Trump said on Friday just hours after.

“We need to strengthen the military potential of strategic nuclear forces,” Putinsaid, “especially with missile complexes that can reliably penetrate any existing and prospective missile defense systems.”
Both Russia and the United States have roughly 7,000 nuclear weapons, according tothe non-partisan Ploughshares Fund.

“Given that Trump’s views Putin very favorably — apparently it’s reciprocal — there is a call for Congressional investigation of Russian interference into the election, it’s a little bit strange that Trump seems to have possibly fulfilled this fantasy of working with Russia as a nuclear partner against a third target, which so far has been unnamed,” Kendzior said.

“Over the course of the campaign he said he was willing to drop nukes on Europe, he was willing to use them on the Middle East,” Kendzior continued. “People who interviewed him were startled, but apparently Trump’s reaction was ‘well if we’ve made them, why aren’t we using them?’ It’s just a really terrifying thing, because no president has wanted to use nukes — that was always like an absolute, last-ditch resort. But we seem to have a president now that’s actually enthusiastic about the prospect.”

This is truly terrifying.

I highly recommend following Sarah Kendzior on FB and Twitter. She's written a lot on Russia and the former Soviet Union, and has deeply analyzed Trump's relationship with Russia this year.

Here's a podcast where she talks about how Russia and its oligarchy influences Trump:
What to fear from Trump presidency: authoritarianism, kleptocracy, Russia — NewsWorks

We're in for a lot of shit, it seems.

Vlad, I'm curious about your thoughts on this. I hope Sarah Kendzior is on the right track.

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

I'd like to hope that the fears about Trump wanting to use nuclear weapons are just hyperbole... but I would also hope for a military coup if he ever actually gave the order.

 

[Vlad n U 2]

Vlad, I'm curious about your thoughts on this. I hope Sarah Kendzior is on the right track.

I'm not particularly familiar with Kendzior but those whose opinions I trust (talking about leftist journalists) seem to liken her to Kurt Eichenwald - which doesn't register positively with me. I will have to look into it and get back to you on that.

 

[BoMac]

We're all going to die.

http://gizmodo.com/pakistani-minist..._source=gizmodo_twitter&utm_medium=socialflow


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[Bluer White]

I'm not particularly familiar with Kendzior but those whose opinions I trust (talking about leftist journalists) seem to liken her to Kurt Eichenwald

Chock full o'Nuts, then ?