Trump General Discussion

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As long as he's making stupid decisions and embarrassing the country, I hope it goes on for four years. Keep the pressure on and his approval rating in the tank.
What if he gets impeached though?

Impeached in the sense of unfaithfulness towards Melania by fucking another Russian supermodel. Will the world go crazy about that? Just like they did with Clinton and Monica Lewinsky?

Hopefully being "Trump" won't save him from this, but it could happen.
 
To be fair, Clinton was impeached because he lied under oath about it, not because he was naughty.

... in other words, Trump will probably be impeached on day 2, considering lies fly out of his mouth almost every time he opens it.

Maybe he'll be impeached because of something he says on Twitter, since clearly no one will be able to take that shit away from him, not even out of his cold, dead hands.


(I obviously can't truly wish for his impeachment though, because Mike Pence.)
 
There was this relatively forgotten episode of the Simpsons called Bart's Inner Child. The plot was that this self-help guru pushed the idea that everyone should say what they feel 100% of the time without consequence and that Bart was the ideal human being because he exemplified that quality. Everything went into disarray, of course, because that philosophy is fucking stupid.

Trump has always reminded me of that character. There is a portion of Trump's voting bloc that found his lack of filter and "anti-PC" rhetoric to be very appealing in the face of increasing encouragement towards kindness and inclusion by "the left." That was a deciding factor for them.

So when you see Trump supporters shooting their mouths off and they respond to criticism with "deal with your loss or get out," you know exactly who you're talking to. These aren't the same as the "give the guy a chance" people or the "Trump is going to make America great again" people. They just don't want their ideas challenged and are resentful that it's still happening even after their hero has been elected.
 
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But why can it not also be true that at some point if you as an individual/voter behave in a way as to contribute to oppression EVEN IF you yourself may be doing so for other reasons may lead others to conclude that at worst you are a racist and at best you are indifferent to racism? Maybe it's not productive to scream it in people's face and it almost certainly won't have them change their approach, but if people want to look at such a person and think, ya know what, maybe they are racist, even a little, then I don't see that as necessarily way out there.

I agree with everything you said in your post (and the previous one) , and this fragment in particular is really key.

The indifference to -isms, whichever way one wants to call it, is a serious problem. And it points to an underlying difficulty in the way this country approaches equality issues. Perhaps due to the history of seggregation in the South, racism, sexism and xenophobia are generally seen in terms of overt actions - the hateful message left on the wall, the denial of voting rights to minorities, etc. All of these are, obviously, important aspects of the problem that need to be combatted.

But there is a deeply disturbing tendency in the US (I'm sure it exists in other places, but from my experience it is more prevalent here) to overlook structural aspects of racism, or all non-overtly behavior that contributes to exclusion of minorities or women. You can only be racist if you engage in a racist action, but not if you are part of a broader structure that is itself racist. Think of the criminal justice system: practices such as broken windows policing or stop and frisk have clear racial implications. They build on existing biases, but do not necessarily require an overtly racist action by the police officer. Does that mean there is no racism involved? Obviously, I don't think so.

This is why, I think, the media has such trouble with covering race-related issues (or other -isms). Steven Bannon is not directly called a racist, he's "seen by critics" as a racist. And that's for a guy that edited a white supremacist and anti-semitic platform. Trump's statements were labelled as controversial, not racist or sexist.

In my mind, the way forward is to change the narrative from racism as a binary act - you are either racist or you are not - to a more nuanced understanding that recognizes that we are all racist/sexist/xenophobic to some extent, while unequivocally asserting our obligation to fight these phenomena. Biases are a part of each individual and society, and recognizing such biases is the first step to eliminating them.
 
To be fair, Clinton was impeached because he lied under oath about it, not because he was naughty.

... in other words, Trump will probably be impeached on day 2, considering lies fly out of his mouth almost every time he opens it.

Maybe he'll be impeached because of something he says on Twitter, since clearly no one will be able to take that shit away from him, not even out of his cold, dead hands.


(I obviously can't truly wish for his impeachment though, because Mike Pence.)

Lying on Twitter isn't illegal. Lying under oath is. Clinton was impeached because he allegedly perjured himself in a civil trial. I can certainly see Trump lying under oath in his upcoming fraud trial, but it will probably end up getting settled out of court.
 
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I guess my question to all of this would be: is there a (moral/social/ethical) line a political candidate could cross that would make justifying voting for that person unacceptable?

I get voting for someone with views you don't like when they're really the only viable alternative. But when candidate A has crossed so many lines that would sink any other candidate (explicit racism, sexism, xenophobia, religious bigotry, etc), and when Candidate B has not only put forth more substantial policy to deal with the issues that candidate A claims to be addressing, but does so without dipping into the (usually) taboo areas that candidate A has, at what point does the risk posed by candidate A's controversial and divisive positions (to put it extremely mildly) outweigh the potential benefits?

If it's personal choice, like sex etc, not my damn issue. If you're doing something that violates the law, or what you stood for (flip-flopping levels vary), then.....eff you.
 
I hold my representatives positions as my own. I'm imperfect. I cheated, I got a DUI, I have had facts change strongly held opinions.

If they go beyond what I won't accept about myself, we have a problem. I have a huge issue with the Trump rhetoric. If he pulls back (no sign) I will not be as mad.
 
Glenn Beck's belated transformation to a hipster is perhaps the most unexpected turn of this election cycle.

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Lying on Twitter isn't illegal. Lying under oath is. Clinton was impeached because he allegedly perjured himself in a civil trial. I can certainly see Trump lying under oath in his upcoming fraud trial, but it will probably end up getting settled out of court.

Right, what I meant was, he lies so much in his every day existence, surely he'll forget how not to lie if and when he's under oath. I phrased that terribly calling back to Twitter.

If lying on Twitter were illegal, there would be no Twitter.
 
the last thing ill say on this point is that it ties back to the debate we were having before the election about incorrectly labeling trump a fascist. i obviously feel this hyperbolic labeling is a lazy way of operating and only serves to make oneself feel better by casting their opponents in the worst possible light ("the opposite side is the absolute worst! good thing i'm on the *right* side, and good job to me for pointing out how awful they are"). it shuts down real debate of any kind and it doesn't ever change the mind of the person who's suddenly been slapped with a horrible label they are damn sure doesn't apply to them. and more "it's us vs them, victory or death" is just about the last thing that is going to be helpful for america in a time when that kind of attitude is what got us into this mess in the first place.

this shit is bad enough. let's at least make an attempt to not make it any worse.

again, smart people attack stupid ideas. stupid people attack stupid people. and i know this forum isn't full of stupid people (clearly i am only speaking about fym here though).
 
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Man, now I need the eye roll emoji for you.

You're completely ignoring the conversation that everyone else is having here and I have no idea why.
 
Silver lining of the Trump administration: I learned a good new word - kakistocracy.
 
Man, now I need the eye roll emoji for you.

You're completely ignoring the conversation that everyone else is having here and I have no idea why.


Yeah, this got real weird, I keep thinking maybe there are posts I'm missing :scratch:


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Man, now I need the eye roll emoji for you.

You're completely ignoring the conversation that everyone else is having here and I have no idea why.

well, i do have something called "a job" that often precludes me from carefully reading and replying to posts that come up between the hours of 9 am and 5 pm.

and my post was pretty clearly a general "last thought" on the topic rather than something that was a direct response to anything said previously, so i'm not sure what on earth about that would have made you react like this.
 
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Impeachment. That's not a term I've really heard in NZ.
A quick google tells me, in a US context: "An impeachable offense is whatever a majority of the House of Representatives considers it to be at a given moment in history." - Gerald Ford.
Also, that it relates only to "The President, Vice President, and all civil officers of the United States"

Two questions:
1/ are we sure a president found guilty of lying under oath can be impeached, if congress doesn't want him to be?
2/ Why the fuck are presidential nominees not included in this cluster of people who can be impeached?
I mean, with the money, effort and research put in to ensuring the US runs as well as it can, with defense, health, etc etc, how is there still no law, guidelines, policing etc of blatant lying from a major presidential candidate???

Apparently the wall talk was symbolic. That isn't how it was presented. The deporting talk has changed, the muslim ban talk has changed, the obamacare talk has changed.

Yes I know this is expected, but so was polio not long ago. So was a catastrophic fatality rate of mothers giving birth. So was coal plants being a popular source of electricity.
But when things are shit we as a society fix them. Where is the pressure to fix this? Why is a presidential nominee allowed to lie?

edit: and I should have acknowledged, both sides lied, both sides always do. This isn't a left v right problem though never has a candidate been so blatant as Trump
 
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a bracing read.


Yet this situation is not normal – or, if you prefer that in social media terms, #notnormal. When women are lining up for long-term contraception in a mournful, pragmatic farewell to their reproductive autonomy; when the chief strategist is accused of enabling racism and antisemitism; when the vice-president-elect signed legislation requiring women to hold and pay for funerals for miscarried foetuses; when the president-elect has vowed to deport three million immigrants; when he has at least 12 allegations of sexual misconduct outstanding against him; when he has announced a cabinet that includes his own three children: this looks nothing like a democracy. It looks nothing like reconciliation. It looks despotic, inflammatory, extreme and violent: it looks, in short, exactly as Trump promised it would look, as he campaigned on a pledge to imprison his opponent. His adversaries respond that he probably doesn’t mean what he says, a position for which there is precisely no evidence. Their desire to normalise has put them in the fantastical state of seeing the forthcoming presidency as they wish it, and not as it plainly is.

[...]

Normalising is not anything the rightwing extremists do, and they do not try: they don’t look for acceptable labels for themselves. It is the mainstream that twists itself into conciliatory pretzel knots finding nicer words for “fascist”, such as “alt-right”.

Democrats try to find the fault within themselves: ask not whether a racist hates; ask what made the racist so angry in the first place. Once we have found the right member of the liberal elite to pin it on, the hate maybe won’t sound so frightening.

All this has a few sources: there is straightforward denial, the first stage of grief. Trump can’t be that bad, because that would simply be too bad. There is a sense that the far right doesn’t just ignore liberal sensibilities, it actively takes nourishment from our despair. The US journalist Wajahat Ali, writing the day after the result, described his conversation with his father: “Please be careful – if Trump wins, his supporters will feel very energised.” This was borne out by the spike in racist and sexist hate crimes in the US, and resonates here in Britain, too.

Racists are energised by the victory of racists, and calling them racist simply rams that victory home. A year ago, to be antisemitic would have meant exclusion from public life, and now it amounts to fitness for high office. Every time you reassert a fundamental value of humanity, you give a cheap, scornful thrill to the person who made it necessary for you to say it. You cannot shame a white supremacist; unaccountably, you feel the shame yourself when you try. The charge is so extreme, if they don’t accept, then you must be hysterical. There is an underlying truth, here, that the act of debating brings its own legitimacy. If we are really going to go back to square one and have to explain why grabbing a woman by the pussy is a violation of her human dignity, or why you can’t ban an entire religion from your shores, where does that end? What territory have you ceded just by allowing the question? It is genuinely hard to say.

The hard right does not accept argumentation as a path to a shared truth; it is simply not how they are wired. They take a view; you take a view; their view electorally prevails, you shut up. End of, as they always say on Facebook. “You just don’t get it, do you? You LOST.” That is the authoritarian way. It is hard to escape a pragmatic conclusion that verbal combat is pointless, but it is also wrong; the purpose now is not persuasion. I don’t think anybody is going to unearth any hidden sophistication or empathy in the person of vice-president-elect Mike Pence. The purpose of making these basic arguments is solidarity with one another, lest, in the silence, we lose our bearings.

As to the descent into leftwing in-fighting, so distracting from the task of trenchantly opposing a fascist, it has the same driver: if you are fighting to reach a consensus, however bitterly, you can only do so with people who will move. You cannot discuss climate change with a person who thinks all scientists are crooked; you cannot discuss abortion with people who conceive women as chattel to begin with; it’s meritless. And yet to fight with one another is not neutral, it does more than just pass the time. It creates false equivalence or, worse, a hierarchy that has its arse on backwards. If you are talking about Hillary Clinton’s corporate cosiness and not Trump’s endorsement by the KKK, you are unavoidably putting one above the other.

What does non-normalising look like? Bernie Sanders told the Today programme today that it would be millions of people coming together to defend institutions and the rule of law. This is specific to the US, obviously – there isn’t much point in millions of non-Americans coming together, for all that the new toxicity of the US’s political culture affects us all, practically and theoretically. And it’s reactive, since the Trump presidency will choose the sites of the conflict. Yet there is meaning and hope in remembering, as the American Civil Liberties Union has, that the president is not pope; that there is a constitution and a set of laws; that supreme court judges can lean whichever way they will, but there are only so many ways of interpreting a constitution founded on the universal rights of man; and that millions of people can and will oppose their traducement with the backing of the ages.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...mp-normalisation-us-president-elect-barbarism

 
I guess my question to all of this would be: is there a (moral/social/ethical) line a political candidate could cross that would make justifying voting for that person unacceptable?

This is the thing. Trump has crossed basically all of my lines by either espousing or enabling white nationalism, sexual assault, authoritarianism, and fascism (yes fascism).

This is not like Bush '00/'04, or Cameron '10/'15, or Abbott '13, or Key '08/'11/'14, or any other result I found disappointing, undesirable, or embarrassing. All of those remained within a system of functional liberal democracy. That has changed. Sitting back and saying "it can't happen here" (wherever here may be, given the resurgence of the authoritarian right is occurring across continents) or "we need more understanding" is not helpful in stopping these movements.
 
I think it was more "there is no evidence Donald Trump won't do what he says he is going to do."
 
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Beck destroyed his whole media empire. Was hoping for some Mormon White Knight candidate to come in. He's getting yanked from stations all over the country.


The truth will do that to you in those circles. Just wait till Trump actually gets sworn in, you'll only have one media outlet to listen to.


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