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Old 11-16-2016, 04:40 PM   #881
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Lying on Twitter isn't illegal. Lying under oath is. Clinton was impeached because he allegedly perjured himself in a civil trial. I can certainly see Trump lying under oath in his upcoming fraud trial, but it will probably end up getting settled out of court.
Right, what I meant was, he lies so much in his every day existence, surely he'll forget how not to lie if and when he's under oath. I phrased that terribly calling back to Twitter.

If lying on Twitter were illegal, there would be no Twitter.
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Old 11-16-2016, 04:41 PM   #882
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the last thing ill say on this point is that it ties back to the debate we were having before the election about incorrectly labeling trump a fascist. i obviously feel this hyperbolic labeling is a lazy way of operating and only serves to make oneself feel better by casting their opponents in the worst possible light ("the opposite side is the absolute worst! good thing i'm on the *right* side, and good job to me for pointing out how awful they are"). it shuts down real debate of any kind and it doesn't ever change the mind of the person who's suddenly been slapped with a horrible label they are damn sure doesn't apply to them. and more "it's us vs them, victory or death" is just about the last thing that is going to be helpful for america in a time when that kind of attitude is what got us into this mess in the first place.

this shit is bad enough. let's at least make an attempt to not make it any worse.

again, smart people attack stupid ideas. stupid people attack stupid people. and i know this forum isn't full of stupid people (clearly i am only speaking about fym here though).
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Old 11-16-2016, 04:58 PM   #883
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Man, now I need the eye roll emoji for you.

You're completely ignoring the conversation that everyone else is having here and I have no idea why.
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Old 11-16-2016, 05:01 PM   #884
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Silver lining of the Trump administration: I learned a good new word - kakistocracy.
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Old 11-16-2016, 05:05 PM   #885
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Silver lining of the Trump administration: I learned a good new word - kakistocracy.
Can you use it in a sentence?
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Old 11-16-2016, 05:05 PM   #886
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Man, now I need the eye roll emoji for you.

You're completely ignoring the conversation that everyone else is having here and I have no idea why.

Yeah, this got real weird, I keep thinking maybe there are posts I'm missing


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Old 11-16-2016, 05:09 PM   #887
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Can you use it in a sentence?
Sure.

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The newly-elected populist leader of the Republic of Equatorial Kundu moved quickly towards setting up a new administration that some critics described as a kakistocracy.
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Old 11-16-2016, 05:16 PM   #888
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Man, now I need the eye roll emoji for you.

You're completely ignoring the conversation that everyone else is having here and I have no idea why.
well, i do have something called "a job" that often precludes me from carefully reading and replying to posts that come up between the hours of 9 am and 5 pm.

and my post was pretty clearly a general "last thought" on the topic rather than something that was a direct response to anything said previously, so i'm not sure what on earth about that would have made you react like this.
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Old 11-16-2016, 05:28 PM   #889
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Impeachment. That's not a term I've really heard in NZ.
A quick google tells me, in a US context: "An impeachable offense is whatever a majority of the House of Representatives considers it to be at a given moment in history." - Gerald Ford.
Also, that it relates only to "The President, Vice President, and all civil officers of the United States"

Two questions:
1/ are we sure a president found guilty of lying under oath can be impeached, if congress doesn't want him to be?
2/ Why the fuck are presidential nominees not included in this cluster of people who can be impeached?
I mean, with the money, effort and research put in to ensuring the US runs as well as it can, with defense, health, etc etc, how is there still no law, guidelines, policing etc of blatant lying from a major presidential candidate???

Apparently the wall talk was symbolic. That isn't how it was presented. The deporting talk has changed, the muslim ban talk has changed, the obamacare talk has changed.

Yes I know this is expected, but so was polio not long ago. So was a catastrophic fatality rate of mothers giving birth. So was coal plants being a popular source of electricity.
But when things are shit we as a society fix them. Where is the pressure to fix this? Why is a presidential nominee allowed to lie?

edit: and I should have acknowledged, both sides lied, both sides always do. This isn't a left v right problem though never has a candidate been so blatant as Trump
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Old 11-16-2016, 06:02 PM   #890
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a bracing read.


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Yet this situation is not normal – or, if you prefer that in social media terms, #notnormal. When women are lining up for long-term contraception in a mournful, pragmatic farewell to their reproductive autonomy; when the chief strategist is accused of enabling racism and antisemitism; when the vice-president-elect signed legislation requiring women to hold and pay for funerals for miscarried foetuses; when the president-elect has vowed to deport three million immigrants; when he has at least 12 allegations of sexual misconduct outstanding against him; when he has announced a cabinet that includes his own three children: this looks nothing like a democracy. It looks nothing like reconciliation. It looks despotic, inflammatory, extreme and violent: it looks, in short, exactly as Trump promised it would look, as he campaigned on a pledge to imprison his opponent. His adversaries respond that he probably doesn’t mean what he says, a position for which there is precisely no evidence. Their desire to normalise has put them in the fantastical state of seeing the forthcoming presidency as they wish it, and not as it plainly is.

[...]

Normalising is not anything the rightwing extremists do, and they do not try: they don’t look for acceptable labels for themselves. It is the mainstream that twists itself into conciliatory pretzel knots finding nicer words for “fascist”, such as “alt-right”.

Democrats try to find the fault within themselves: ask not whether a racist hates; ask what made the racist so angry in the first place. Once we have found the right member of the liberal elite to pin it on, the hate maybe won’t sound so frightening.

All this has a few sources: there is straightforward denial, the first stage of grief. Trump can’t be that bad, because that would simply be too bad. There is a sense that the far right doesn’t just ignore liberal sensibilities, it actively takes nourishment from our despair. The US journalist Wajahat Ali, writing the day after the result, described his conversation with his father: “Please be careful – if Trump wins, his supporters will feel very energised.” This was borne out by the spike in racist and sexist hate crimes in the US, and resonates here in Britain, too.

Racists are energised by the victory of racists, and calling them racist simply rams that victory home. A year ago, to be antisemitic would have meant exclusion from public life, and now it amounts to fitness for high office. Every time you reassert a fundamental value of humanity, you give a cheap, scornful thrill to the person who made it necessary for you to say it. You cannot shame a white supremacist; unaccountably, you feel the shame yourself when you try. The charge is so extreme, if they don’t accept, then you must be hysterical. There is an underlying truth, here, that the act of debating brings its own legitimacy. If we are really going to go back to square one and have to explain why grabbing a woman by the pussy is a violation of her human dignity, or why you can’t ban an entire religion from your shores, where does that end? What territory have you ceded just by allowing the question? It is genuinely hard to say.

The hard right does not accept argumentation as a path to a shared truth; it is simply not how they are wired. They take a view; you take a view; their view electorally prevails, you shut up. End of, as they always say on Facebook. “You just don’t get it, do you? You LOST.” That is the authoritarian way. It is hard to escape a pragmatic conclusion that verbal combat is pointless, but it is also wrong; the purpose now is not persuasion. I don’t think anybody is going to unearth any hidden sophistication or empathy in the person of vice-president-elect Mike Pence. The purpose of making these basic arguments is solidarity with one another, lest, in the silence, we lose our bearings.

As to the descent into leftwing in-fighting, so distracting from the task of trenchantly opposing a fascist, it has the same driver: if you are fighting to reach a consensus, however bitterly, you can only do so with people who will move. You cannot discuss climate change with a person who thinks all scientists are crooked; you cannot discuss abortion with people who conceive women as chattel to begin with; it’s meritless. And yet to fight with one another is not neutral, it does more than just pass the time. It creates false equivalence or, worse, a hierarchy that has its arse on backwards. If you are talking about Hillary Clinton’s corporate cosiness and not Trump’s endorsement by the KKK, you are unavoidably putting one above the other.

What does non-normalising look like? Bernie Sanders told the Today programme today that it would be millions of people coming together to defend institutions and the rule of law. This is specific to the US, obviously – there isn’t much point in millions of non-Americans coming together, for all that the new toxicity of the US’s political culture affects us all, practically and theoretically. And it’s reactive, since the Trump presidency will choose the sites of the conflict. Yet there is meaning and hope in remembering, as the American Civil Liberties Union has, that the president is not pope; that there is a constitution and a set of laws; that supreme court judges can lean whichever way they will, but there are only so many ways of interpreting a constitution founded on the universal rights of man; and that millions of people can and will oppose their traducement with the backing of the ages.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...lect-barbarism

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Old 11-16-2016, 06:35 PM   #891
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His adversaries respond that he probably doesn’t mean what he says, a position for which there is precisely no evidence.
there's "precisely no evidence" that donald trump is a liar?
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Old 11-16-2016, 07:30 PM   #892
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I guess my question to all of this would be: is there a (moral/social/ethical) line a political candidate could cross that would make justifying voting for that person unacceptable?
This is the thing. Trump has crossed basically all of my lines by either espousing or enabling white nationalism, sexual assault, authoritarianism, and fascism (yes fascism).

This is not like Bush '00/'04, or Cameron '10/'15, or Abbott '13, or Key '08/'11/'14, or any other result I found disappointing, undesirable, or embarrassing. All of those remained within a system of functional liberal democracy. That has changed. Sitting back and saying "it can't happen here" (wherever here may be, given the resurgence of the authoritarian right is occurring across continents) or "we need more understanding" is not helpful in stopping these movements.
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Old 11-16-2016, 07:44 PM   #893
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there's "precisely no evidence" that donald trump is a liar?
Touche'
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Old 11-16-2016, 08:09 PM   #894
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Trump General Discussion

I think it was more "there is no evidence Donald Trump won't do what he says he is going to do."
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Old 11-16-2016, 08:17 PM   #895
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Even Glenn Beck is making sense again :facepalm: if we accept Bannon, we're racist.


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Get a room.
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Old 11-16-2016, 08:20 PM   #896
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Beck destroyed his whole media empire. Was hoping for some Mormon White Knight candidate to come in. He's getting yanked from stations all over the country.
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Old 11-16-2016, 09:19 PM   #897
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Beck destroyed his whole media empire. Was hoping for some Mormon White Knight candidate to come in. He's getting yanked from stations all over the country.

The truth will do that to you in those circles. Just wait till Trump actually gets sworn in, you'll only have one media outlet to listen to.


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Old 11-16-2016, 11:27 PM   #898
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The truth will do that to you in those circles. Just wait till Trump actually gets sworn in, you'll only have one media outlet to listen to.


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Never watched the Blaze but Dana Loesch is super sexy
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Old 11-16-2016, 11:58 PM   #899
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Silver lining of the Trump administration: I learned a good new word - kakistocracy.
A ruling class who wear khakis all the time?
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Old 11-17-2016, 12:03 AM   #900
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Never watched the Blaze but Dana Loesch is super sexy
her?

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