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Old 11-15-2016, 05:38 PM   #801
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you're right. there's only ever one reason for complicated events.

i vote: email.
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Old 11-15-2016, 05:40 PM   #802
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i guess that since I voted for the conservative party in the 2011 federal election here despite them running an overtly anti-gay platform behind a reptilian career politician (because the other candidates in my riding were absolutely awful, and I felt that the liberal party leader was unfit to be prime minister), that means that i, an openly and proudly bisexual man, therefore tacitly approve of homophobia. cool.

this is lazy thinking.
See, I don't buy this argument at all. The fact that 10 percent of African Americans and 20 percent of Latinos (I'm estimating) voted for Trump doesn't make him/his campaign less racist. The fact that a third of US Jews voted for him doesn't make him/his campaign less anti-Semitic. He won the women vote, for Christ's sake.

The great Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie has a very good point on this (at 1:55 in this video). "Every system of oppression has people who are in the group of the oppressed who somehow contribute to that oppression".

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Old 11-15-2016, 05:55 PM   #803
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Hey buddy. Clear out your inbox.
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Old 11-15-2016, 06:21 PM   #804
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And as a result, while perhaps not necessarily being the hateful things he is themselves, they still voted for it. They still said with their vote, this is ok. That's what I can't accept, and that's what disturbs and disgusts me. That's what I can't wrap my head around, and that's what I can't envision reaching across the aisle for.
Yup. Speaking of Trump voters generally, this is the part that I can't get past. And maybe I shouldn't. Because if we all drifted into some sort of acceptance, what would the next thing be that we would hate, and then gradually learn to accept?

I know, slippery slope and all. But a year ago, I didn't think any of this was possible. I don't think any of us can bet against it not getting worse, at this point.
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Old 11-15-2016, 06:23 PM   #805
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He won the women vote, for Christ's sake.


i found this really interesting:

Quote:
Glick worked with Princeton University’s Susan Fiske to develop a groundbreaking assessment of hostile and benevolent sexism. (And of how those two attitudes combine, Voltron-like, to form the cognitively dissonant state of “ambivalent sexism.”)

Glick’s and Fiske’s work, along with two decades of social science research that has used and expanded on it, tells us a lot about why sexist bias against women is still so pervasive.

And it tells us why women themselves often buy into these ideas, too.

Male dominance actually requires a pretty delicate balance, Glick said. If men want to maintain the control over women they’ve enjoyed for thousands of years, and continue their species, and satisfy their desires for heterosexual love and companionship, they can’t just use brute force. They need women to actually like them and not resent their dominance.

And so a compromise emerged — or at least a “protection racket,” as Glick calls it, like when the Mafioso tells the businessman he’d hate to see his nice shop burn down, so why don’t they make a deal.

The basic agreement is that as long as women cater to men’s needs, men will protect and cherish women in return. If women have few good options for independent success, this is a pretty good deal — which explains why in more overtly sexist societies where women have fewer opportunities, cross-national studies show that women endorse benevolent sexism at even higher rates than men do.

This may also help explain why Trump maintained high levels of support among white women voters who don’t have a college degree — a group Trump won 62 percent to 34, and a group whose career opportunities are probably more limited. Meanwhile, Hillary Clinton totally reversed 2012’s partisan gender gap among college-educated white women. (A demographic Clinton won by 51 to 45 percent, and Romney won 52 to 46 against Obama.)

But the most powerful gendered element of Trump’s campaign may actually lie in his fear-mongering.

“Trump's strategy was to ramp up anxiety about a dark, dangerous world,” Glick said. “When women are under threat, their benevolent sexism scores go up.”

Specifically, he said, showing women survey data about men’s hostile sexism makes women more likely to endorse benevolent sexism out of psychological self-defense. It may be ironic to turn to men for protection from male hostility, but it’s how the cycle works.

This also helps explain why so many women hold sexist biases against women, Glick said. If women themselves enforce gender norms and punish deviants, it reinforces the social order that guarantees them protection. And it separates them from the “bad” women who are deemed unworthy of that protection.


But that protection can still come with a cost, Glick said — which is also where sexist stereotypes about men factor in. The idea that men have to be providers and protectors, Glick said, goes hand in hand with the “boys will be boys” attitude that’s often used to excuse men’s bad behavior.

“Men are bad but bold. That’s the stereotype,” Glick said. “He’s not a very good protector if he can't beat up on other men.”

Glick said that Trump’s more positive masculine traits — boldness, change, willingness to defy tradition — may be seen as inextricably linked with his more negative ones, like his boorishness and cruelty. Trump may not be a nice guy, the thinking goes, and we may not like some of the things he says. But that just comes with the territory if you want a strong male leader.


You hear this rationale a lot from women who still supported Trump after the “pussy” tape leaked and more sexual assault allegations came out. They don’t like it, but they find ways to excuse it. “I do find the words offensive, but that’s locker room talk. That’s the boys club,” Michelle Werntz, a Trump supporter, told CNN.

Some of these excuses minimize sexual assault, or even endorse it. “Groping is a healthy thing to do,” Trump supporter Jane Biddick told the Cut. “When you’re heterosexual, you grope, okay? It’s a good thing.”

Comments like these are reminders of another dark truth research has revealed about benevolent sexism: its strong role in our culture’s tendency to blame victims of sexual assault. The higher a person scores on measures of benevolent sexism, the more likely that person is to blame women who are victims of acquaintance rape (as opposed to rape by a stranger), or victims who behaved in less than “ideal” ways before a rape (like cheating on their husband, or passively rather than actively resisting their attacker).

Sexual assault is the ultimate expression of hostile sexism. But the protection racket of benevolent sexism gives women a lot of incentive to either forgive men for it, or blame women.


The alternative — acknowledging that the system is broken, and that virtue can’t protect you from violence — can be too terrible to contemplate.

http://www.vox.com/identities/2016/1...m-misogyny-won
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Old 11-15-2016, 07:36 PM   #806
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Democrats of FYM, do you think it is time to ditch Pelosi as House Minority Leader?
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Old 11-15-2016, 07:46 PM   #807
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Kellyanne Conway sort of admitted they sought clearances - with her spin it's probably true then. cnn.com is still reporting it as of this afternoon.
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Old 11-15-2016, 08:04 PM   #808
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Yup. Speaking of Trump voters generally, this is the part that I can't get past. And maybe I shouldn't. Because if we all drifted into some sort of acceptance, what would the next thing be that we would hate, and then gradually learn to accept?



I know, slippery slope and all. But a year ago, I didn't think any of this was possible. I don't think any of us can bet against it not getting worse, at this point.

THIS is the area that we as a people need to figure out how to understand, educate, and be able to empathize with.

Maybe we should be careful with calling it 'acceptance'? Let's be fair Hillary had a lot of baggage, would we accuse all of her voters of being 'accepting' of this baggage? Now some of this baggage was real, some exaggerated, and some just plain made up, but Trump voters would say this about his baggage as well. And they wouldn't be completely wrong, they'd be wrong, but not 100%, which is why we have to be careful about what we focus on.

I think instead of 'acceptance' many are just turning a blind eye; some just because of the R, some because of their hatred towards Clinton, and some because of their feelings of disenfranchisement. And of course there's a lot of overlap, and/ or sexism that fills some of those gaps.

When it comes to Trump supporters within the FYM crowd I really don't believe there are any overtly racist individuals, there are some what I'd call latent or soft racist and there are those that are just so tunneled vision that they can "truly" not see it.

I believe Hillary voters were willing to look past a lot, but at the end of the day I heard many say "yes, this is an issue, but at least we know what we're getting and Trump is absolutely dangerous." Whereas we heard "Trump has his flaws, but..."

In here we see:

A. "well he should have said it this way" - they want it so bad they've convinced themselves it's not racist or sexist.

B. "It's all fabricated hyperbole made up by the media"

C. "deplorable, but he has an R and he's not Hillary"

Obviously you can't reason with them all.

But how do you engage A and B?

These are serious questions:

How do you engage with the person that doesn't trust msm, and probably grew up surrounded by latent racism? Can we honestly blame them for not believing the media? I can't. We can blame them if they choose the other extreme and don't question it, but I don't think we can honestly blame anyone for not believing the media.

How do you engage the A's? I think they are probably the most difficult AND the ones that could honestly have their eyes opened. I don't think these people have any ill intent and little to no latent racism, they just want it so bad that they have blinders on.

Sorry, just stream of conscience of what I'm dealing with right now...


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Old 11-15-2016, 08:07 PM   #809
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Democrats of FYM, do you think it is time to ditch Pelosi as House Minority Leader?

Not a Democrat, but yes, I believe the party as a whole needs to do some soul searching.

I will miss Obama, but I have been disappointed by most of the party other than him, Biden, and a handful of others.


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Old 11-15-2016, 08:45 PM   #810
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A friend shared this on Facebook, and I think it's a great idea. I've added the Hochschild book and another to my reading list.

One Way To Bridge The Political Divide: Read The Book That's Not For You : NPR
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Old 11-15-2016, 08:48 PM   #811
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I think that Nancy Pelosi is very low hanging fruit. Should she go? Probably, and if I were her I'd go voluntarily. But really she is not the main problem here nor is she the first thing that needs fixing.
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Old 11-15-2016, 10:21 PM   #812
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No, it doesn't mean you tacitly approve it, but it does mean that, despite your feelings, you voted for a guy knowing full well he was running an anti-gay platform.

yup. and i don't feel ashamed about it at all.



i've voted liberal (or for the left wing candidate) in every other election i've voted in. in 2011 in my riding the other two major party candidates were godawful (one was laughably inexperienced to be an mp, and the other was a complete whackadoo), michael ignatieff was a total putz who would have been a terrible pm, and the conservative candidate was an incumbent who i knew did a lot of personal and behind the scenes work for veterans. i placed that vote knowing full well that it was potentially against my own self interest but i have no doubt that i made the correct choice of the options i had. should i feel bad that i didn't vote for a shitty candidate i didn't agree with who would have likely been a failure? every single person has voted for politicians they don't agree with at all on major issues because they were the best option available.

there are a lot of trump voters thinking this way and to label and dismiss them and howl for blood ("admit you voted for a racist xenophobic rapist!" was tossed around here for a couple days, as if that's got any other purpose than give you a sense of superiority regardless of the answer) is only going to make matters worse for everyone. i certainly wouldn't have considered listening to the side that was calling me a homophobe for days on end after that election.

this is not a zero sum game. it's not total victory or unconditional surrender. nobody has to cave on anything, but everybody needs to chill the fuck out with the labels. none of this is helping matters.
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Old 11-16-2016, 03:26 AM   #813
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there are a lot of trump voters thinking this way and to label and dismiss them and howl for blood ("admit you voted for a racist xenophobic rapist!" was tossed around here for a couple days, as if that's got any other purpose than give you a sense of superiority regardless of the answer) is only going to make matters worse for everyone.
I don't think a sense of superiority is the point at all.
This is the point:

Quote:
Originally Posted by VintagePunk View Post
Speaking of Trump voters generally, this is the part that I can't get past. And maybe I shouldn't. Because if we all drifted into some sort of acceptance, what would the next thing be that we would hate, and then gradually learn to accept?

I know, slippery slope and all. But a year ago, I didn't think any of this was possible. I don't think any of us can bet against it not getting worse, at this point.
A man with a campaign blatantly based on xenophobia and lies and a past riddled with openly misogynistic behaviour is now the president elect of the USA.
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Old 11-16-2016, 03:51 AM   #814
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yup. and i don't feel ashamed about it at all.



i've voted liberal (or for the left wing candidate) in every other election i've voted in. in 2011 in my riding the other two major party candidates were godawful (one was laughably inexperienced to be an mp, and the other was a complete whackadoo), michael ignatieff was a total putz who would have been a terrible pm, and the conservative candidate was an incumbent who i knew did a lot of personal and behind the scenes work for veterans. i placed that vote knowing full well that it was potentially against my own self interest but i have no doubt that i made the correct choice of the options i had. should i feel bad that i didn't vote for a shitty candidate i didn't agree with who would have likely been a failure? every single person has voted for politicians they don't agree with at all on major issues because they were the best option available.

there are a lot of trump voters thinking this way and to label and dismiss them and howl for blood ("admit you voted for a racist xenophobic rapist!" was tossed around here for a couple days, as if that's got any other purpose than give you a sense of superiority regardless of the answer) is only going to make matters worse for everyone. i certainly wouldn't have considered listening to the side that was calling me a homophobe for days on end after that election.

this is not a zero sum game. it's not total victory or unconditional surrender. nobody has to cave on anything, but everybody needs to chill the fuck out with the labels. none of this is helping matters.

It's such a big issue when someone on the "correct" social side throws their hands up for the wrong reasons, or perhaps lazily, and hits the wrong people. Or just hits everyone.

I can't legitimately call Trump homophobic. He's not. That doesn't mean he hasn't said a ton of terrible things about other people. Furthermore, I know that while he might not be, some of his Pence-like supporters are. But it's important not to just throw my hands up and group them all together. If I do that, I miss the point. And even worse, my accusations result in an effective crying of wolf of sorts.

The ultimate conclusion I would make is that it's important to 1) not slap a big label on anyone and 2) think critically about who the audience is, friend or foe.
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Old 11-16-2016, 06:31 AM   #815
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Saying that Trump voters voted for a racist, xenophobic man child who is woefully unqualified for the job would not be an accusation. It would be a statement of fact.

And the day we stop pointing out the awful, terrible things he's said and done is the day that we also accept it. And when we accept that, what's next?

If Trump was the Democratic candidate , I'd have voted Republican and said the same things about him. This is not about party or "sides," it's about how terrible this candidate is, and how awful his worst case scenarios all are.
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Old 11-16-2016, 06:34 AM   #816
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If that's a response to me, that's not what I was saying at all.
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Old 11-16-2016, 07:32 AM   #817
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https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-r...et-troll-video
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Old 11-16-2016, 07:34 AM   #818
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A man with a campaign blatantly based on xenophobia and lies and a past riddled with openly misogynistic behaviour is now the president elect of the USA.
That's ok, they're not racist and xenophobic and misogynistic themselves....yet they had no problem voting for the guy who is. Irony at its best.

It's time the deplorables own up.
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Old 11-16-2016, 07:53 AM   #819
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That's ok, they're not racist and xenophobic and misogynistic themselves....yet they had no problem voting for the guy who is. Irony at its best.

It's time the deplorables own up.
And there again we have it, all the Trump voters are "deplorables".
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Old 11-16-2016, 07:56 AM   #820
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This is the kind of white nationalist asshole your nonracist Trump campaign emboldened. They're white, they're out, and they're loud and proud. America is great once again!


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