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Old 11-14-2016, 04:04 PM   #681
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Seriously. What do people want at this point? Some blanket acknowledgment that Bernie was a shit candidate?

cuts both ways, though, no?

perhaps by agreeing that both candidates had serious flaws and that Trump was more likely than not to win (in hindsight) no matter who was running given the post-Brexit mood he seems to have tapped into, now we can learn from what happened and move on.

there was also a lot more to the article than just the Bernie oppo research. but that's what i found most striking -- i had heard of none of that before.
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Old 11-14-2016, 04:11 PM   #682
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cuts both ways, though, no?

perhaps by agreeing that both candidates had serious flaws and that Trump was more likely than not to win (in hindsight) no matter who was running given the post-Brexit mood he seems to have tapped into, now we can learn from what happened and move on.

there was also a lot more to the article than just the Bernie oppo research. but that's what i found most striking -- i had heard of none of that before.
I wouldn't be so fatalistic about it. Hillary was probably doomed because of the rampant sexism of the campaign, but Bernie did seem to catalyze people in a way she had trouble doing. Or maybe his supporters were just louder, who knows. It does raise the question of who is on the docket for the Democrats in 2020.
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Old 11-14-2016, 04:19 PM   #683
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to your point about fatalism -- i agree, we should always remember that she did win the popular vote by a not inconsiderable margin. he literally threaded some crazy electoral needle, winning four states by about 1% to pull off a victory in the EC. this wasn't some walloping.
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Old 11-14-2016, 04:26 PM   #684
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Laura Ingraham being eyed for press secretary. Cool. Great. Bigly. Another winner. This is fine.

My burning question today is for Mrs. Garrison: why do you type Trump all in caps?
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Old 11-14-2016, 04:30 PM   #685
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With all that mind, Dems and everyone else can forget about Sanders running and even winning at least the nomination in 2020. There's too much against him and too much that will upset most Americans (unemployed until mid-30s? Sandinistas?)

BTW, Shaun King who writes for the NY Daily News, just launched a resistance movement against Trump: https://www.thedjtr.com/
As for now, it's just a boycott against the companies that supported Trump, like PayPal, New Balance, Home Depot and others. I wonder how long it will last and how big it will get.
PayPal? wtf?

well at least i can do something about that and boycott them!
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Old 11-14-2016, 04:45 PM   #686
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"racist" and "racism" get thrown around a lot -- and we often don't really understand what is meant by them. it's not just what is embodied by someone like Bannon -- someone who's clearly racist. it's about understanding what it means to be in a system that is often unconsciously racist, as in predicated upon an unspoken assumption of white supremacy. it isn't just Klansmen in hoods.

i found this quite thought-provoking:

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I’m saying that what it means to see yourself as white has fundamentally changed, from unmarked default to racially marked, a change now widely visible: from of course being president and of course being beauty queen and of course being the cute young people selling things in ads to having to make space for other, nonwhite people to fill those roles.

We have been seeing this change in popular culture and in higher education over the course of the last decades. Black and brown and Asian people sell you financial instruments and clothing. The president and first lady are black. Your college literature course includes Toni Morrison and Junot Díaz. But if you haven’t gone to college, where multiculturalism has been making its way for a generation, and if your version of America was formed in school in the 20th century, and that 20th-century image remains in your consciousness, you may have a lot to lose.

In our racially oriented American society, this change marks a demotion for white people. From assumed domination, they now take their place among the multiracial American millions. For Trump supporters embracing the social dimension of “Make America Great Again,” their vote enacted a visceral “No!” to multicultural America. As if to say, “Take us back to the time of unmarked whiteness and racially unmarked power” assumed to be white.

In the Trump administration, white men will be in charge (virtually his entire transition team, and practically every name offered for a potential cabinet post, is a white man). You could say that’s nothing new, that white men have been in charge forever. This is true, but now with a gigantic difference. This time the white men in charge will not simply happen to be white; they will be governing as white, as taking America back, back to before multiculturalism.

Mr. Trump’s presidential campaign’s leadership and support complicate making America great again, on account of the campaign’s tilt toward white nationalism. Here lies a snare that has entrapped white identity for decades. White nationalism scares many ordinary white people away from embracing whiteness, which white nationalism makes appear bigoted and terroristic. Given the people who emphasize their white racial identity — white nationalists, Nazis, Klansmen and so on — the white race is a spoiled identity. Embracing whiteness would seem to enmesh one in a history of slave-owning and all the discrimination flowing from it. What righteous person would want to embrace that? Up to now, there’s hardly been a pressing need to do so, for a fundamental dimension of white American identity has been individuality.

Conveniently, for most white Americans, being white has meant not having a racial identity. It means being and living and experiencing the world as an individual and not having to think about your race. It has meant being free of race. Some people are proud white nationalists, but probably not many of the millions who voted for Donald Trump. Thinking in terms of community would seem to be the job of black people. The Trump campaign has disrupted that easy freedom.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/13/op...trump-era.html

for all the talk of the coming Democratic majority and multicultural America, if whites vote as whites which means GOP with the solidarity that we often associate with other groups, it could be much more difficult for the Democrats to gain power.
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Old 11-14-2016, 05:06 PM   #687
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to your point about fatalism -- i agree, we should always remember that she did win the popular vote by a not inconsiderable margin. he literally threaded some crazy electoral needle, winning four states by about 1% to pull off a victory in the EC. this wasn't some walloping.
Not to mention that half of eligible voters actually voted, and Trump received less than half of that, so he will be president thanks to 25% of the electorate. That's hardly a mandate for huge change, but that's what we're going to get.
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Old 11-14-2016, 05:53 PM   #688
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Also, Oregoropa, you don't think an article entitled "The Confederate Flag: Proclaiming a Glorious Heritage" might have some white supremacist content?
I had a chance to read the article. Here are my interpretations.

In the wake of the Charleston shooting there was strong pressure being exerted by the left and media to eradicate the Confederate Flag as a state symbol. Some were even calling to remove monuments to fallen Confederate soldiers that have stood for 130 years.

The Stars and Bars flag (initially the battle flag of the army of Northern Virginia) has been co-opted as a symbol of division after the war, but in its context is an important piece of American History. Unlike the red Nazi Banner which draped the public square of every reach of the Reich, the NVA flag was initially used during engagements by Southern Forces under the command of Robert E. Lee. This is not a flag that popped up in 1859 and flew over every cotton field in the south while slaves were beaten and killed in the name of that banner. I believe this an important distinction. The Nazi banner has been outlawed in Germany as its initial intent was never in doubt.

My dad is a Civil War history buff and passed that onto me. We dragged my sister to go see the 4 hour movie Gettysburg (Jeff Daniels, Martin Sheen) when she was 9 years old. A movie so long it had an intermission. Based upon the book the Killer Angels. The movie and the book accurately portrays an America in its youth when there were sinners and saints on both sides of the lines. Many of these men fought along side each other in the Mexican-American War. When secession happened each man was forced to make a choice over which side to fight for. At the this time the United States was more analogous to the current European Union where national (state) loyalties took precedence, even if the southern commanders disagreed with slavery.

Robert E. Lee was offered command of the entire Northern Army, but could not turn his back on Virginia. Imagine if the EU split down the middle, he wasn't going to abandoned Austria to take up command of the Parisian based Army. The commanders of the Confederacy were some of the greatest military minds the world has ever seen. It's not a racist thing to acknowledge this historical truth. War is never pretty, but it can be argued that this was the last war of Civility. The movie, book shows the opposing campfires where they contemplated morality, friendship before the battles ensued. There was a reverence given to their commanders and their glorious banners.

The Breitbart article is a pushback against the overreach of those on the left who want to relegate certain aspects of history to the dumpster. The use of the term Glorious can be argued as a cross between rhetorical device and clickbait meant to draw the reader into the article that ends up being more nuanced than a white supremacist hit piece.

The Battle Flag of the Army of NV has been used as a symbol of hate, but we must find its proper context before we bulldoze Monument Avenue in Richmond, Virginia. Small towns throughout the south have monuments to honor the dead in the bloodiest war in American history. In the end the right side of history prevailed. Robert E Lee knew when it was time to quit and prevent future bloodshed. He is a figure in American History with greater importance than many Presidents. The south was full a despicable figures as well. Gen. Sherman in the north was a vicious commander as well.

I believe there can be a compromise in removing instances of the stars and bars in the public square where the visual may cause discomfort, but we would be remiss to eradicate this period of history as a whole.
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Old 11-14-2016, 06:17 PM   #689
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tl;dr - who gives a fuck about what black people think when they see the flag, the confederate army was cool!
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Old 11-14-2016, 06:24 PM   #690
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tl;dr - who gives a fuck about what black people think when they see the flag, the confederate army was cool!
Read my last line
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Old 11-14-2016, 06:35 PM   #691
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Trump General Discussion

Oregeropa, thanks for the response. I guess the thing to me that solidifies the flag as a racist symbol is that it first appeared as a battle flag - i.e., flying for the side that was literally willing to kill in order to keep slavery legal. Were there other reasons the south was fighting? Yes, but slavery was inarguably at the core of the fight. Is the flag of historical significance? Yes. But its historical significance is inextricably tied to slavery and the racism that sought to prevent its abolishment. So you can't argue that the flag is just a marker of a noteworthy heritage without acknowledging that that heritage was explicitly racist. And the Breitbart article does its best to minimize that connection.
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Old 11-14-2016, 06:37 PM   #692
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No one is asking for eradication.

The swatstika had positive symbolism prior to being adopted by Nazi Germany.

Do you think anyone would write Swatstika: a Sign of Hope?

Well Breitbart might, but other than him and Duke, probably not.

It's great you understand how the flag started, but that's not what it is today. It stands for a portion of the country that committed treason over their desire to own another race as property.


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Old 11-14-2016, 06:44 PM   #693
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Originally Posted by Oregoropa View Post
I had a chance to read the article. Here are my interpretations.



In the wake of the Charleston shooting there was strong pressure being exerted by the left and media to eradicate the Confederate Flag as a state symbol. Some were even calling to remove monuments to fallen Confederate soldiers that have stood for 130 years.



The Stars and Bars flag (initially the battle flag of the army of Northern Virginia) has been co-opted as a symbol of division after the war, but in its context is an important piece of American History. Unlike the red Nazi Banner which draped the public square of every reach of the Reich, the NVA flag was initially used during engagements by Southern Forces under the command of Robert E. Lee. This is not a flag that popped up in 1859 and flew over every cotton field in the south while slaves were beaten and killed in the name of that banner. I believe this an important distinction. The Nazi banner has been outlawed in Germany as its initial intent was never in doubt.



My dad is a Civil War history buff and passed that onto me. We dragged my sister to go see the 4 hour movie Gettysburg (Jeff Daniels, Martin Sheen) when she was 9 years old. A movie so long it had an intermission. Based upon the book the Killer Angels. The movie and the book accurately portrays an America in its youth when there were sinners and saints on both sides of the lines. Many of these men fought along side each other in the Mexican-American War. When secession happened each man was forced to make a choice over which side to fight for. At the this time the United States was more analogous to the current European Union where national (state) loyalties took precedence, even if the southern commanders disagreed with slavery.



Robert E. Lee was offered command of the entire Northern Army, but could not turn his back on Virginia. Imagine if the EU split down the middle, he wasn't going to abandoned Austria to take up command of the Parisian based Army. The commanders of the Confederacy were some of the greatest military minds the world has ever seen. It's not a racist thing to acknowledge this historical truth. War is never pretty, but it can be argued that this was the last war of Civility. The movie, book shows the opposing campfires where they contemplated morality, friendship before the battles ensued. There was a reverence given to their commanders and their glorious banners.



The Breitbart article is a pushback against the overreach of those on the left who want to relegate certain aspects of history to the dumpster. The use of the term Glorious can be argued as a cross between rhetorical device and clickbait meant to draw the reader into the article that ends up being more nuanced than a white supremacist hit piece.



The Battle Flag of the Army of NV has been used as a symbol of hate, but we must find its proper context before we bulldoze Monument Avenue in Richmond, Virginia. Small towns throughout the south have monuments to honor the dead in the bloodiest war in American history. In the end the right side of history prevailed. Robert E Lee knew when it was time to quit and prevent future bloodshed. He is a figure in American History with greater importance than many Presidents. The south was full a despicable figures as well. Gen. Sherman in the north was a vicious commander as well.



I believe there can be a compromise in removing instances of the stars and bars in the public square where the visual may cause discomfort, but we would be remiss to eradicate this period of history as a whole.


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Old 11-14-2016, 07:15 PM   #694
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some of us worried that he'd start an unnecessary war in the middle east, but not a nuclear war. Bush was an establishment candidate. much was made about his incuriosity, simple-mindedness, and laziness. in response, he and the establishment surround him with highly experienced advisors in order to project the appearance of seriousness and accountability. these people may have been deeply conservative, but they were deeply experienced and understood the gravity of their jobs.

Trump doesn't understand policy at all, and thinks he knows more than the generals, probably because he has "the best brain."

as for race, Bush was positively moderate on immigration. he called out Trent Lott's racism.

and, you know, he didn't APPOINT WHITE SUPREMACISTS AND ANTI-SEMITES to top white house positions.

also, Bush didn't sexually assault women.
All of this, plus Bush also wasn't so horrifically thin-skinned as to pick random fights with people who were "meeeeeean" to him or dared to actually call him out on his bullshit. Twitter came out a couple years prior to the end of his presidency, and yet I don't remember hearing about him going on some inane three am Twitter rant.

I will repeat: earlier this week, Trump's campaign team took his Twitter account away for a time because they wanted to attempt to keep him on a leash leading up to the election.

And now, a man whose own team didn't trust him to handle his own Twitter account because of his not-so-stable presence online is being given our nuclear codes.

If Trump supporters don't see something fundamentally disturbing and wrong with that, I honestly don't know what the hell else I can say to them that will make it actually sink in.

Also, regarding all the racist people being connected to Trump...remember when Obama was running in 2008, and the right was going on and on and on about Reverend Wright and Alinsky and Bill Ayers, and making it sound like he had these DEEP CONNECTIONS with these horrible people? Remember how they made a big thing out of how who somebody associates with says a lot about them?

Funny how the right's tune is changing now anytime somebody tries to bring up Trump's support from the KKK, or these alt-right people joining him. Apparently now associations or support from certain people/groups don't seem to matter, I guess.
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Old 11-14-2016, 07:38 PM   #695
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Laura Ingraham being eyed for press secretary. Cool. Great. Bigly. Another winner. This is fine.

My burning question today is for Mrs. Garrison: why do you type Trump all in caps?
Because that is how you see it on the buildings, the airplane, etc. I also referred to his opponent as HRC if you recall, which i believe is how a lot of other people did as well.
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Old 11-14-2016, 07:39 PM   #696
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Except I'm speaking of reality and in sentences that make sense.


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that is rarely ever true
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Old 11-14-2016, 07:54 PM   #697
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that is rarely ever true

Every single post of yours today lacks truth, you wouldn't know truth if it stared you in the eye. You live in a world where HRC created ISIS, Trump didn't paint all Mexicans with the same brush, and FYM posters stated Bush would nuke us all. You live in the comments section, not in reality.


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Old 11-14-2016, 08:00 PM   #698
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Yeaaaaaaa...

Wasn't calling you a cunt there chief. Was typing the word over and over again, as you and others continued to make the false claim that saying a bad word is somehow equivalent to what Trump said on that bus.

Good try, though.
You are not fooling anyone, it was obvious what you were doing. As for you calling me "chief", is that because i am a native american? What. the. hell.

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Some things are more important than political affiliation. This man is a con. He's not even a major real estate developer, and hasn't been in decades. Why? He went bankrupt. Most of the buildings with his name on it he didn't even build. He's a brand; famous for being famous. You think this smart businessman is going to fix anything? You voted for a glorified Kim Kardashian. You. Were. Conned.
What is really sad is the fact that YOUR candidate couldn't even beat what you are calling a "glorified Kim Kardashian".

Looks like You. Were. Conned. And we did try to warn you.

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But worse, he's done nothing but spew hateful rhetoric throughout his campaign. I know all Trump supporters aren't racist homophobes. But ya did vote for one. And don't show that fucking pixture of Trump with the rainbow flag again. A man who cares about LBGT rights does not name Mike Pence as his running mate.
First off i wasn't the one who posted the picture of TRUMP with the rainbow flag. And second, please don't you tell me what i can and cannot post here.

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Anger issues? Yea bro, I'm pretty fucking angry about this. And I won't stop protesting until he's gone, no matter how long that takes. Which, come on... shouldn't really be that long. Do you really think those Apprentice tapes of him dropping N bombs left and right will stay locked up forever?

This man is a piece of shit. Congrats on "your side" electing him and "winning."
Sorry about your anger issues. I truly hope that you find peace in your life.
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Old 11-14-2016, 08:02 PM   #699
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Every single post of yours today lacks truth, you wouldn't know truth if it stared you in the eye. You live in a world where HRC created ISIS, Trump didn't paint all Mexicans with the same brush, and FYM posters stated Bush would nuke us all. You live in the comments section, not in reality.


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Old 11-14-2016, 08:11 PM   #700
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What is really sad is the fact that YOUR candidate couldn't even beat what you are calling a "glorified Kim Kardashian".



Looks like You. Were. Conned. And we did try to warn you.







That's now how this works, that's not how any of this works... :facepalm:

Pay attention, headache didn't fall for anything.


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