Trump General Discussion
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DaveC
Blue Crack Addict
No, it doesn't mean you tacitly approve it, but it does mean that, despite your feelings, you voted for a guy knowing full well he was running an anti-gay platform.
yup. and i don't feel ashamed about it at all.
i've voted liberal (or for the left wing candidate) in every other election i've voted in. in 2011 in my riding the other two major party candidates were godawful (one was laughably inexperienced to be an mp, and the other was a complete whackadoo), michael ignatieff was a total putz who would have been a terrible pm, and the conservative candidate was an incumbent who i knew did a lot of personal and behind the scenes work for veterans. i placed that vote knowing full well that it was potentially against my own self interest but i have no doubt that i made the correct choice of the options i had. should i feel bad that i didn't vote for a shitty candidate i didn't agree with who would have likely been a failure? every single person has voted for politicians they don't agree with at all on major issues because they were the best option available.
there are a lot of trump voters thinking this way and to label and dismiss them and howl for blood ("admit you voted for a racist xenophobic rapist!" was tossed around here for a couple days, as if that's got any other purpose than give you a sense of superiority regardless of the answer) is only going to make matters worse for everyone. i certainly wouldn't have considered listening to the side that was calling me a homophobe for days on end after that election.
this is not a zero sum game. it's not total victory or unconditional surrender. nobody has to cave on anything, but everybody needs to chill the fuck out with the labels. none of this is helping matters.
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Salome
you are what you is
I don't think a sense of superiority is the point at all.
This is the point:
A man with a campaign blatantly based on xenophobia and lies and a past riddled with openly misogynistic behaviour is now the president elect of the USA.
LuckyNumber7
Blue Crack Addict
yup. and i don't feel ashamed about it at all.
i've voted liberal (or for the left wing candidate) in every other election i've voted in. in 2011 in my riding the other two major party candidates were godawful (one was laughably inexperienced to be an mp, and the other was a complete whackadoo), michael ignatieff was a total putz who would have been a terrible pm, and the conservative candidate was an incumbent who i knew did a lot of personal and behind the scenes work for veterans. i placed that vote knowing full well that it was potentially against my own self interest but i have no doubt that i made the correct choice of the options i had. should i feel bad that i didn't vote for a shitty candidate i didn't agree with who would have likely been a failure? every single person has voted for politicians they don't agree with at all on major issues because they were the best option available.
there are a lot of trump voters thinking this way and to label and dismiss them and howl for blood ("admit you voted for a racist xenophobic rapist!" was tossed around here for a couple days, as if that's got any other purpose than give you a sense of superiority regardless of the answer) is only going to make matters worse for everyone. i certainly wouldn't have considered listening to the side that was calling me a homophobe for days on end after that election.
this is not a zero sum game. it's not total victory or unconditional surrender. nobody has to cave on anything, but everybody needs to chill the fuck out with the labels. none of this is helping matters.
It's such a big issue when someone on the "correct" social side throws their hands up for the wrong reasons, or perhaps lazily, and hits the wrong people. Or just hits everyone.
I can't legitimately call Trump homophobic. He's not. That doesn't mean he hasn't said a ton of terrible things about other people. Furthermore, I know that while he might not be, some of his Pence-like supporters are. But it's important not to just throw my hands up and group them all together. If I do that, I miss the point. And even worse, my accusations result in an effective crying of wolf of sorts.
The ultimate conclusion I would make is that it's important to 1) not slap a big label on anyone and 2) think critically about who the audience is, friend or foe.
Saying that Trump voters voted for a racist, xenophobic man child who is woefully unqualified for the job would not be an accusation. It would be a statement of fact.
And the day we stop pointing out the awful, terrible things he's said and done is the day that we also accept it. And when we accept that, what's next?
If Trump was the Democratic candidate , I'd have voted Republican and said the same things about him. This is not about party or "sides," it's about how terrible this candidate is, and how awful his worst case scenarios all are.
And the day we stop pointing out the awful, terrible things he's said and done is the day that we also accept it. And when we accept that, what's next?
If Trump was the Democratic candidate , I'd have voted Republican and said the same things about him. This is not about party or "sides," it's about how terrible this candidate is, and how awful his worst case scenarios all are.
LuckyNumber7
Blue Crack Addict
If that's a response to me, that's not what I was saying at all.
That's ok, they're not racist and xenophobic and misogynistic themselves....yet they had no problem voting for the guy who is. Irony at its best.
It's time the deplorables own up.
Hewson
Blue Crack Supplier
And there again we have it, all the Trump voters are "deplorables".
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
This is the kind of white nationalist asshole your nonracist Trump campaign emboldened. They're white, they're out, and they're loud and proud. America is great once again!
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Yep.
This is no time to be polite or to seek appeasement. You only defeat authoritarian demagogues through sustained and outspoken condemnation and resistance.
The rise and rise of the populist, neo-fascist, racist, misogynistic, paranoid, authoritarian right continues. We - and I count myself in this group - had been too complacent in assuming it was a fringe movement that could never achieve mass popularity, certainly not to the point that it would secure government or be a major oppositional force in liberal democracies throughout Europe, North America, and Australia. This is not the business-as-usual political competition that had previously defined the post-WWII Western order. We must be complacent no more.
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
One of our own shared a post about how Bannon wasn't a white nationalist, it evoked visitors like this fine man.
See? So, it's all hyperbole folks. Donald doesn't have his WN id yet.
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Irvine511
Blue Crack Supplier
But if we don't call out really bad behavior we risk normalizing it, and continue our march into the sewer of ethnonationalism.
I know it's uncomfortable, and I don't recommend the "you voted for racism!" as an actual political strategy. But when we think about what just happened, we can't excuse away the fact that a lot of people voted for some really deplorable things. And I think a lot of white men have difficulty understanding these things (because they have the unique opportunity not to be defined by their race and gender, as I've come to terms with my homosexuality I've seen my whiteness and maleness in a totally different light).
And then we have the actual deplorables: the KKK, Steve Brannon, Frank Gafney. I'm not the slightest bit concerned at calling deplorable people deplorable.
BoMac
Self-righteous bullshitter
mama cass
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Hewson
Blue Crack Supplier
So 60 Million folks exhibited "really bad behavior" last Tuesday?
DaveC
Blue Crack Addict
well, my point was certainly missed by a country mile.
let's continue to be lazy and blanket-label our political opponents as human pond scum, then. who gives a fuck what that attitude does to the country as long as we can pat ourselves on the back about being better humans than them.
let's continue to be lazy and blanket-label our political opponents as human pond scum, then. who gives a fuck what that attitude does to the country as long as we can pat ourselves on the back about being better humans than them.
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Hewson
Blue Crack Supplier
But not a city mile, those folks would have gotten it.
BoMac
Self-righteous bullshitter
Oh my fucking God. Over the course of the campaign Trump has said many racist, xenophobic and sexist things, and yet people looked the other way and voted for him anyway. It was right there in front of their eyes. We're not making this up.
It comes down to the individual person. If a candidate puts forward economic policies that I 100% agree with to the letter, and yet still enables white nationalists with racist and xenophobic rhetoric such as a Muslim ban, calling Mexicans rapists etc., I AM NOT VOTING FOR THAT PERSON NO MATTER HOW IT WOULD PERSONALLY BENEFIT ME.
Salome
you are what you is
Yeah, the only thing is that not that many here are blanket-labeling anyone.
Merely 'labeling' Trump's campaign.
And if you can look at Trump's campaign and see something else than xenophobic, fear-mongering trash talk, filled with lies then please enlighten me.
This
Co-sign.
Hewson
Blue Crack Supplier
But the opponent has to be considered as well. What if someone is convinced Mrs. Clinton would plunge the country into a violent conflict in the middle east and their son has just enlisted in the military, would they not have to make a choice as to whether they prefer a guy who is displaying xenophobia to a candidate who might get their child killed in war?(totally hyperbolic situation I know, just illustrating a point that folks make their choice for all kinds of reasons, and the labelling of all of his supporters one way can also be discriminatory)
LuckyNumber7
Blue Crack Addict
Salome
you are what you is
Yes, I agree.
DaveC
Blue Crack Addict
it seems you missed out on the election thread last wednesday. off the top of my head i can think of two posters who did this more than once.
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Hewson
Blue Crack Supplier
bono_212
Blue Crack Distributor
There's a difference between "missing" your point and disagreeing with your point. You aren't the only voice of reason, Dave, yours isn't the only viewpoint that matters.
mama cass
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bono_212
Blue Crack Distributor
1) That particular poster has also now stepped away from the board, so there's that.
2) Anything that was said in the first 24 hours after the election, I'd LIKE to think can be a bit overlooked by heat of the moment reaction. Since then, I think the majority of people have voiced their opinion in a reasonable manner. On all sides of the issue.
mama cass
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if you enlist in the military, uh the possibility of going to war is kind of par for the course, no?
and Trump will never go to war will he, nope, not in a million years
man, this is a guy who goes to war on Twitter every day!
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