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Old 11-21-2016, 06:57 PM   #421
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I would say American opinions on Israel are divided, even amongst Christians. There are plenty of anti-Semitic evangelical Christians in the US who hold the jews responsible for the crucifixion, and probably even a few who don't like Israel's human rights record.
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Old 11-21-2016, 07:00 PM   #422
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I can speak for what Arab Christians feel about Israel. They don't like Israel. Arab Christians might be Christian, but they're also Arab. While religion is often a scapegoat or a simplification for complex international problems, more often nationalism is the true feeding of the fire. What most don't discern is that Israel is a nation, not a religion. It's just a nation that is filled with Jewish people.

and those Arab Christians that I can attest for (and even I am making sweeping statements here)... they're still typically Trump supporters. In my experience. Due to the very same mind boggling reason (or lack thereof) that a lot of people are.

What you're describing about evangelical Christians holds true for practically every middle eastern and North African sect of Christianity. They all follow the Old Testament, as of course do the Jewish folks. That doesn't stop the fact that Israel is indeed a nation. When Israel fights Lebanon or Palestine or Egypt, they're fighting a nation. Underlying factors might be of religion, but Christians are still dying both ways. Israel does what every nation does (or should be doing) -- it tries to do whats best for its people. That is indeed often times at the expense of other countries.

To be blindly "pro-Israel" is not a Christian thing. It's an inherently *American* thing. It's only recently that the democrats have chosen to change course on that tone.
Good insight. Thanks for that. I think overall as a matter of foreign policy Christians favor a shift away from the Obama administration treatment of the state of Israel.

The Holy Land (of all 3 Abrahamic Religions) has been fought over for thousands of years and has a lot of moving parts even in this current age.
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Old 11-21-2016, 07:25 PM   #423
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Good insight. Thanks for that. I think overall as a matter of foreign policy Christians favor a shift away from the Obama administration treatment of the state of Israel.



The Holy Land (of all 3 Abrahamic Religions) has been fought over for thousands of years and has a lot of moving parts even in this current age.

I mean factually, yes I agree with your statement. Christians favor a shift away from the Obama administration due to the treatment of the state of Israel. However, I don't think the underlying cause is due to their Christianity. It's due to their nationalism. Israel is and always has been "America's ally." Meanwhile, you have Iranians like Ahmadinejad who have historically yelled death to America and Israel alike.

It's not an irrational view to be pro Israel. But personally I think they treat their neighbors like dogs (just as their neighbors treat them like dogs, but they're far less off). I think Israel definitely bites on more than it can chew. More importantly, I see zero reason as to why we are enemies with Iran and friends with the Saudis. If you legitimately want to tackle radical ideologists, being enemies with Iran while aiding the Saudis pretty much accomplishes the opposite.
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Old 11-21-2016, 07:27 PM   #424
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Perhaps I'm coming at it from living in the church for a time, and not fully explaining it out. Evangelical Christians hold Judaism and the existence of Israel in high regard. There is goodwill that goes both ways. There is not an active attempt by mainstream Christianity to go over to Israel and try to convert Jews.
There appears to be either a lot of lack of knowledge here about what evangelical Christians believe vis-a-vis Israel, or there is willful blindness/a refusal to say it out loud because it is so ugly and offensive.

In order for the end times to come, evangelicals believe that Jews must return to their homeland and be in charge of Israel. Their support of Israel as a nation for Jews exists 90% for this reason and 10% out of Islamophobia and hatred of the Arab world. It is all self-serving and none of it related to actually wishing well for the Jewish people. Because let's also not forget that these same evangelicals believe that when the end times roll around and Jesus returns, the Jews will have two options - convert to Christianity or be slaughtered. Pretty nice, eh?

Likudniks in Israel are using the evangelicals to further their own agenda of expansionist politics and what is going to be a de facto apartheid state soon. The evangelicals are using them to bring back Jesus.

It's all really disgusting if you are an honest non-deluded individual.
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Old 11-21-2016, 07:34 PM   #425
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- Christians are generally Pro-Life. Trump promised justices in the mold of Scalia. During the 3rd debate Chris Wallace brought up late-term abortion. 80% of the populace favors restrictions of late-term procedures (not just Christians). It was a stark exchange between Trump and Clinton where Trump defended his opposition, where other GOP candidates have waffled or triangulated with "culture of life" language. Yes, Trump used to be Pro-Choice. Christians will hold his feet to the fire to make sure he follows through on protecting what they view as a vulnerable population. Several days ago when talking about Lincoln, I said there was a current issue similar to what he faced, and I was alluding to abortion. There are many who see protecting the unborn as an issue of human dignity akin to the abolition of slavery. Dred Scott and Roe are similar rulings in the cultural context of sharp moral divisions. The evangelical awakening in the south turned many blue states red in the 1970s

I know this issue is very emotional on both sides, that's why I shied away from bringing it up at the time. From the Christian viewpoint this a single voter issue to many. My personal view is that if a baby can survive outside the womb in a NICU unit being delivered 3.5 months premature, I consider that a human life. We often talk about the science is settled when it comes to climate, I believe the science is settled when it comes to a point of viability of a fetus outside the womb. There of course can be extreme situations when a doctor and mother may have to make a heart-wrenching decision. Hillary did make this point during the debate but failed to pivot to a greater empathy of former Democratic talking point of let's make abortion "rare and safe"
Aren't late term abortions already exceedingly rare as it is? Why exactly are pro-lifers getting so up in arms about something that rarely ever happens to begin with, something that, on the very few occasions when it does happen, only happens for the most extreme of health emergencies? Why bother putting more restrictions on something that's already pretty restricted as is?

And why exactly do Christians/pro-lifers/conservatives think they have the right to regulate what a woman can do with her body and pregnancy in the first place? How can conservatives, who claim to be so pro-limited government interference in people's personal lives, justify letting the government have the power to regulate such a personal aspect of women's health in such a manner?

The comparison of ending abortion to the abolition of slavery is utterly ludicrous, and frankly, offensive, to me. They are not one and the same. Not even close.

Though having said that, if we're going to go with comparisons, I'd like to know why conservatives think tougher restrictions on abortion will somehow lower or stop women from having abortions, but when people suggest tougher restrictions on guns after something like, oh, say, Sandy Hook (to continue on with the whole "protecting innocent life" train of thought here) suddenly they just can't seem to justify that kind of restriction?

Like mama cass said, if people want to continue to see a reduction in the number of abortions, all these restrictive laws narrowing the amount of time a woman has to make that choice, all the right's attempts to defund things like Planned Parenthood, are not the solution. Comprehensive sex education in schools, easier access to birth control, more support for adoption agencies and more people being wiling to adopt children who need homes, better support systems for women who've been raped, tougher penalties for rapists/teaching boys about the importance of consent, things of that sort, THAT is where pro-life organizations and politicians should be focusing their energies if they're truly serious about trying to lower the amount of abortions out there. I've no doubt plenty of pro-life voters do support most or all of those things, of course, but why aren't more politicians advocating for that stuff instead of just going with their usual, "We'll shut down Planned Parenthood!" spheel?

(Not intending this post to be confrontational, by the way. Just some questions I'm curious about regarding the pro-life/conservative side of this issue.)
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Old 11-21-2016, 07:49 PM   #426
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I'm honestly curious to find out what positions/thoughts ardently pro-Israel people would/have taken towards apartheid South Africa.

I do not understand how anyone even vaguely left-of-centre could back such a reactionary regime.
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Old 11-21-2016, 07:54 PM   #427
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Slightly off topic. In the 1500s The Kingdom of Poland opened their lands to Jews persecuted in other areas. That is why Poland had such a high concentration of Jews pre-WW2. In Israel they have a Holocaust Memorial section called "Righteous Among the Nations" honoring those who risked everything to save Jews during WWII (Oskar Schindler included) . Polish Christians are the predominant population of those honored. They have a website telling the fascinating stories. (I am Polish-American, so I do a lot of research into my heritage. Family came over through the Ellis Island process 1870-1890)

I cannot speak for what Arab-Christians feel about Israel. Or how Jews feel about Arab-Christians. I'm sure there is some literature online outlining the sociological dynamics.
A country taking in refugees at a time of need? Surely those aren't the Christian values you voted for...

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Old 11-21-2016, 08:11 PM   #428
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This has to be a joke right? I mean, we all know Trump is too smart to telegraph his moves to the enemy...


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Old 11-21-2016, 09:18 PM   #429
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And why exactly do Christians/pro-lifers/conservatives think they have the right to regulate what a woman can do with her body and pregnancy in the first place?
There are competing Rights. The rights of the woman. The rights of the unborn. It is a societal question of when we award those rights.

The conservative/Christian/pro-life view can vary on when they feel that begins.

Some believe it happens at the moment of conception. As a Conservative person of faith I would like to see abortion numbers drop in our society. I want more sex-ed. I want easy-cheap access to morning-after-medication.
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Old 11-21-2016, 09:19 PM   #430
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Jon Stewart, not correct to label Trump voters racist,

Jon Stewart Talks Election and Why Liberals Should Rethink Trump Supporters in Interview with Charlie Rose

I think Dave has been saying this, too.
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Old 11-21-2016, 09:38 PM   #431
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A President for all Americans

BET founder: Trump 'committed to reaching out to African-Americans' - CNNPolitics.com
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Old 11-21-2016, 09:42 PM   #432
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Maybe the thing with Macri wasn't true. Or maybe Ivanka's participation in the Abe meeting was fine. Perhaps the Indian businessmen met him just to congratulate him. But these things add up to a pretty corrupt image of his pre-presidency.

And now this:

With a Meeting, Trump Renewed a British Wind Farm Fight

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When President-elect Donald J. Trump met with the British politician Nigel Farage in recent days, he encouraged Mr. Farage and his entourage to oppose the kind of offshore wind farms that Mr. Trump believes will mar the pristine view from one of his two Scottish golf courses, according to one person present.
Edit: Holy shit, I had missed his tweet about it. So he basically said: "yes, I will profit from being President. You knew that before the election".
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Old 11-21-2016, 09:51 PM   #433
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President elect Trump reaching across the aisle

.Why Democratic Rep. Tulsi Gabbard Met With Donald Trump - NBC News

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Old 11-21-2016, 10:05 PM   #434
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Also, and holy fuck, he just suggested that the UK should name Farage as the UK Ambassador to the US. This is so inappropriate in diplomatic protocol. Incredibly so.

I feel like every sentence about Trump should legitimately start with "holy fuck".
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Old 11-21-2016, 10:22 PM   #435
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. As a Conservative person of faith I would like to see abortion numbers drop in our society. I want more sex-ed. I want easy-cheap access to morning-after-medication.
Do you support the defending of planned parenthood, then?

As a moderate of faith, I have the same dream as you, but we seem to have wildly different ideas of how to get there.
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Old 11-21-2016, 10:41 PM   #436
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As a Conservative person of faith I would like to see abortion numbers drop in our society. I want more sex-ed. I want easy-cheap access to morning-after-medication.

You are aware that abortion numbers are the lowest they've been since Roe v Wade, right?

And if you want more sex-ed and access to birth control, the people you need to convince are fellow Republicans - democrats have been on your side on that issue for decades. Mike Pence, the freedom caucus and the tea partiers in congress certainly don't agree with you.
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Old 11-21-2016, 10:43 PM   #437
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The birth control thing still blows my mind. Why do they fight that?
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Old 11-21-2016, 10:47 PM   #438
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The birth control thing still blows my mind. Why do they fight that?

Because it costs taxpayer dollars, and if we just teach everyone abstinence they won't need it. Duh.


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Old 11-21-2016, 10:47 PM   #439
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Jon Stewart, not correct to label Trump voters racist,



Jon Stewart Talks Election and Why Liberals Should Rethink Trump Supporters in Interview with Charlie Rose



I think Dave has been saying this, too.

Many of us have; already been posted.


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Old 11-21-2016, 10:55 PM   #440
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Quite telling that deep is looking at Jon Stewart for validation that he is not, in fact, a racist.
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