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Old 11-21-2016, 04:34 PM   #401
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Thaaat's it
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Old 11-21-2016, 04:39 PM   #402
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I have an image of everyone somewhat based on biographical infomation they have shared, their avatar, location, and even personality that has manifested.

I'm aware that you're not kidding.
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Old 11-21-2016, 04:42 PM   #403
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I see you've been learning from obefuhrer Donald Trump...

Someone says something that you agree with and you quickly pretend you've been friends all along, just to siphon off support for yourself. You'll be back to your typical ways... immediately following taking what you came for.
I'm not here to be "friends" or "not friends". This should be a place for reasonable discussion.
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Old 11-21-2016, 04:47 PM   #404
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I'm aware that you're not kidding.
But then I challenge myself by asking would my reaction be the same if the post was written by a different poster? A good test for bias..
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Old 11-21-2016, 05:04 PM   #405
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I'm not here to be "friends" or "not friends". This should be a place for reasonable discussion.

I am one who thinks a web forum is absolutely a place to become friends. There's nothing wrong with being a human being on the internet. But if you choose to put your humanity aside, you deserve to be treated the crude way the internet behaves.

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But then I challenge myself by asking would my reaction be the same if the post was written by a different poster? A good test for bias..

This is a good test to put yourself through. I think you definitely do not have a bias and treat [almost] everyone equally. That doesn't mean you treat everyone well. You're a troll.

Personally, I do as you do until I feel like I've developed opinions of posters. If you can't be rationalized with, why bother? Might as well judge the name before the post. You know, because I'm still waiting for a few posters to describe the republican infatuation with and idolization of Abraham Lincoln.

If someone selectively posts, they can't be rationalized with. I don't block people, but those folks might as well block everyone who disagrees with them. If you can't discuss, why be on a discussion board?
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Old 11-21-2016, 05:49 PM   #406
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I was driving to my sister's house in NJ Sunday morning and Trump National in Bedminster was right off the highway so I decided to drive down the road and passed a church where I saw the Presidential motorcade parked at 11 am.

Click image for larger version

Name:	ImageUploadedByU2 Interference1479765633.682485.jpg
Views:	25
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ID:	10996

Turns out I found an article today that said both he and Pence were inside attending the service.

I am not a church-going Christian at the moment. I was raised through multiple denominations. Catholic, Baptist, Methodist, Evangelical. My mom had a phase where she was bouncing around to different churches during my teenage years. I do consider myself a Christian and have a personal faith.

I feel I can speak to the appeal of Trump to Christian voters. Which was questioned recently in the thread

First off, Christians are not looking for a pastor in chief, but a strong leader that protects the country and the ability for Christians to practice their faith free of outside interference.

- Christians were troubled by the IRS demanding transcripts of sermons in the Houston area in recent years. It was a challenge to their tax-exempt status. It appeared to be selective targeting. Whereas other churches were not targeted. During the convention Trump promised Christians that they would be able engage in Political activity. Basically rolling back the Johnson amendment that LBJ pushed through in congress in 1954. Basically stemmed from a feud Johnson had with a conservative nonprofit in Texas. No church was involved.

- Christians are generally Pro-Life. Trump promised justices in the mold of Scalia. During the 3rd debate Chris Wallace brought up late-term abortion. 80% of the populace favors restrictions of late-term procedures (not just Christians). It was a stark exchange between Trump and Clinton where Trump defended his opposition, where other GOP candidates have waffled or triangulated with "culture of life" language. Yes, Trump used to be Pro-Choice. Christians will hold his feet to the fire to make sure he follows through on protecting what they view as a vulnerable population. Several days ago when talking about Lincoln, I said there was a current issue similar to what he faced, and I was alluding to abortion. There are many who see protecting the unborn as an issue of human dignity akin to the abolition of slavery. Dred Scott and Roe are similar rulings in the cultural context of sharp moral divisions. The evangelical awakening in the south turned many blue states red in the 1970s

I know this issue is very emotional on both sides, that's why I shied away from bringing it up at the time. From the Christian viewpoint this a single voter issue to many. My personal view is that if a baby can survive outside the womb in a NICU unit being delivered 3.5 months premature, I consider that a human life. We often talk about the science is settled when it comes to climate, I believe the science is settled when it comes to a point of viability of a fetus outside the womb. There of course can be extreme situations when a doctor and mother may have to make a heart-wrenching decision. Hillary did make this point during the debate but failed to pivot to a greater empathy of former Democratic talking point of let's make abortion "rare and safe"

It's surprising that many European countries we would consider as more progressive across the board are more restrictive on abortion than the US. (Typing from my phone, can't link to a map of restrictions right now)

- Christians are very Pro-Israel. They do not like the visual of Obama ushering Netanyahu out the kitchen exit of the White House while at the same time showing great fiscal deference to the Iranian mullahs who want to wipe Israel off the map.

TL;DR - Christians voted for Trump based on security, religious liberty, Pro-Life, Pro-Israel stances.


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Old 11-21-2016, 05:55 PM   #407
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Trump General Discusion II

If you propose a Muslim registry, you don't ever get to use the words "religious freedom" ever again.
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Old 11-21-2016, 06:11 PM   #408
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Originally Posted by Oregoropa View Post
I was driving to my sister's house in NJ Sunday morning and Trump National in Bedminster was right off the highway so I decided to drive down the road and passed a church where I saw the Presidential motorcade parked at 11 am.

Attachment 10996

Turns out I found an article today that said both he and Pence were inside attending the service.

I am not a church-going Christian at the moment. I was raised through multiple denominations. Catholic, Baptist, Methodist, Evangelical. My mom had a phase where she was bouncing around to different churches during my teenage years. I do consider myself a Christian and have a personal faith.

I feel I can speak to the appeal of Trump to Christian voters. Which was questioned recently in the thread

First off, Christians are not looking for a pastor in chief, but a strong leader that protects the country and the ability for Christians to practice their faith free of outside interference.

- Christians were troubled by the IRS demanding transcripts of sermons in the Houston area in recent years. It was a challenge to their tax-exempt status. It appeared to be selective targeting. Whereas other churches were not targeted. During the convention Trump promised Christians that they would be able engage in Political activity. Basically rolling back the Johnson amendment that LBJ pushed through in congress in 1954. Basically stemmed from a feud Johnson had with a conservative nonprofit in Texas. No church was involved.

- Christians are generally Pro-Life. Trump promised justices in the mold of Scalia. During the 3rd debate Chris Wallace brought up late-term abortion. 80% of the populace favors restrictions of late-term procedures (not just Christians). It was a stark exchange between Trump and Clinton where Trump defended his opposition, where other GOP candidates have waffled or triangulated with "culture of life" language. Yes, Trump used to be Pro-Choice. Christians will hold his feet to the fire to make sure he follows through on protecting what they view as a vulnerable population. Several days ago when talking about Lincoln, I said there was a current issue similar to what he faced, and I was alluding to abortion. There are many who see protecting the unborn as an issue of human dignity akin to the abolition of slavery. Dred Scott and Roe are similar rulings in the cultural context of sharp moral divisions. The evangelical awakening in the south turned many blue states red in the 1970s

I know this issue is very emotional on both sides, that's why I shied away from bringing it up at the time. From the Christian viewpoint this a single voter issue to many. My personal view is that if a baby can survive outside the womb in a NICU unit being delivered 3.5 months premature, I consider that a human life. We often talk about the science is settled when it comes to climate, I believe the science is settled when it comes to a point of viability of a fetus outside the womb. There of course can be extreme situations when a doctor and mother may have to make a heart-wrenching decision. Hillary did make this point during the debate but failed to pivot to a greater empathy of former Democratic talking point of let's make abortion "rare and safe"

It's surprising that many European countries we would consider as more progressive across the board are more restrictive on abortion than the US. (Typing from my phone, can't link to a map of restrictions right now)

- Christians are very Pro-Israel. They do not like the visual of Obama ushering Netanyahu out the kitchen exit of the White House while at the same time showing great fiscal deference to the Iranian mullahs who want to wipe Israel off the map.

TL;DR - Christians voted for Trump based on security, religious liberty, Pro-Life, Pro-Israel stances.


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A few thoughts immediately come to mind upon reading this (and I do appreciate that you've gone to the length of writing out your thoughts)...

Pence I have little doubt is a good ol church boy. Trump? Does he have a history of going to church? I get that the Christian philosophy isn't to judge who is a better Christian, but doesn't any part of you identify a pandering politician when it beckons? This is equally like calling the Clintons Christian. Trump is publicly known to be religious as much as the Clintons are. When it's suitable.

I'll give you the pro-life thing. That's very true. But I think everyone has already mentioned this in a conversation in this thread not too long ago. It's practically the defining factor of what it means for a politician to have "Christian values." (1) Pro life, (2) don't let the gays marry and, the growing one...

(3) have a negative image of Muslims. There's literally nothing religious about being "pro-Israel." Israel isn't a religion, and it's certainly not filled with Christians. And I don't think many Arab Christians appreciate your assessment that "Christians are pro-Israel." That's a sweeping statement on a pseudo-religious topic, of which Christianity has no relevance.
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Old 11-21-2016, 06:13 PM   #409
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Originally Posted by Oregoropa View Post
I was driving to my sister's house in NJ Sunday morning and Trump National in Bedminster was right off the highway so I decided to drive down the road and passed a church where I saw the Presidential motorcade parked at 11 am.

Attachment 10996

Turns out I found an article today that said both he and Pence were inside attending the service.

I am not a church-going Christian at the moment. I was raised through multiple denominations. Catholic, Baptist, Methodist, Evangelical. My mom had a phase where she was bouncing around to different churches during my teenage years. I do consider myself a Christian and have a personal faith.

I feel I can speak to the appeal of Trump to Christian voters. Which was questioned recently in the thread

First off, Christians are not looking for a pastor in chief, but a strong leader that protects the country and the ability for Christians to practice their faith free of outside interference.

- Christians were troubled by the IRS demanding transcripts of sermons in the Houston area in recent years. It was a challenge to their tax-exempt status. It appeared to be selective targeting. Whereas other churches were not targeted. During the convention Trump promised Christians that they would be able engage in Political activity. Basically rolling back the Johnson amendment that LBJ pushed through in congress in 1954. Basically stemmed from a feud Johnson had with a conservative nonprofit in Texas. No church was involved.

- Christians are generally Pro-Life. Trump promised justices in the mold of Scalia. During the 3rd debate Chris Wallace brought up late-term abortion. 80% of the populace favors restrictions of late-term procedures (not just Christians). It was a stark exchange between Trump and Clinton where Trump defended his opposition, where other GOP candidates have waffled or triangulated with "culture of life" language. Yes, Trump used to be Pro-Choice. Christians will hold his feet to the fire to make sure he follows through on protecting what they view as a vulnerable population. Several days ago when talking about Lincoln, I said there was a current issue similar to what he faced, and I was alluding to abortion. There are many who see protecting the unborn as an issue of human dignity akin to the abolition of slavery. Dred Scott and Roe are similar rulings in the cultural context of sharp moral divisions. The evangelical awakening in the south turned many blue states red in the 1970s

I know this issue is very emotional on both sides, that's why I shied away from bringing it up at the time. From the Christian viewpoint this a single voter issue to many. My personal view is that if a baby can survive outside the womb in a NICU unit being delivered 3.5 months premature, I consider that a human life. We often talk about the science is settled when it comes to climate, I believe the science is settled when it comes to a point of viability of a fetus outside the womb. There of course can be extreme situations when a doctor and mother may have to make a heart-wrenching decision. Hillary did make this point during the debate but failed to pivot to a greater empathy of former Democratic talking point of let's make abortion "rare and safe"

It's surprising that many European countries we would consider as more progressive across the board are more restrictive on abortion than the US. (Typing from my phone, can't link to a map of restrictions right now)

- Christians are very Pro-Israel. They do not like the visual of Obama ushering Netanyahu out the kitchen exit of the White House while at the same time showing great fiscal deference to the Iranian mullahs who want to wipe Israel off the map.

TL;DR - Christians voted for Trump based on security, religious liberty, Pro-Life, Pro-Israel stances.


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You supported a man who spoke of a Muslim registry, you never get to use the term religious liberty ever again.

Churches should have their tax exempt status removed if they're using the pulpit for political purposes, real Christians are not upset about these churches. These churches are often looked at in disgust.

So "Christians" had no problem he mocked the disabled and assaulted women as long as he pretended to be pro-life?

I'm sure they'll be rewarded for their strong principled convictions.


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Old 11-21-2016, 06:16 PM   #410
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It's surprising that many European countries we would consider as more progressive across the board are more restrictive on abortion than the US. (Typing from my phone, can't link to a map of restrictions right now)
here in France, you can only have an abortion for a non-medical reason up to 12 weeks of pregnancy - very very limited time-frame - however, there are very few teenage pregnancies here (especially compared to the UK) - why? because there are no social taboos re. allowing teens to use contraception, in fact, it is widely encouraged (which as a prude Brit i initially found shocking when i moved here and realised other mums were putting their 12/13 year old daughters on the pill, usually to prevent acne, but also babies...), not to mention fully reimbursed by the state health insurance scheme, along with the morning-after pill available to minors free of charge without the need for a prescription and which doesn't require parental authorisation so kids can get help if they really need to - you can't really have it both ways - if you want to limit abortion you have to offer access to contraception

like in the US, these issues are targeted by the extreme right who as usual are attacking women's health rights

beyond 12 weeks, abortion for medical reasons is permitted right up to term of pregnancy, i.e. if the life of the mother is endangered or if the fetus is diagnosed with a serious or incurable disease
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Old 11-21-2016, 06:17 PM   #411
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You supported a man who spoke of a Muslim registry, you never get to use the term religious liberty ever again.

Churches should have their tax exempt status removed if they're using the pulpit for political purposes, real Christians are not upset about these churches. These churches are often looked at in disgust.

So "Christians" had no problem he mocked the disabled and assaulted women as long as he pretended to be pro-life?

I'm sure they'll be rewarded for their strong principled convictions.


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Old 11-21-2016, 06:17 PM   #412
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If you propose a Muslim registry, you don't ever get to use the words "religious freedom" ever again.
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Old 11-21-2016, 06:32 PM   #413
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(3) have a negative image of Muslims. There's literally nothing religious about being "pro-Israel." Israel isn't a religion, and it's certainly not filled with Christians. And I don't think many Arab Christians appreciate your assessment that "Christians are pro-Israel." That's a sweeping statement on a pseudo-religious topic, of which Christianity has no relevance.
Perhaps I'm coming at it from living in the church for a time, and not fully explaining it out. Evangelical Christians hold Judaism and the existence of Israel in high regard. There is goodwill that goes both ways. There is not an active attempt by mainstream Christianity to go over to Israel and try to convert Jews. They share a common history up to the point of recognizing Jesus as the messiah. This is where American Christianity is at today. Of course European history is full of purges of Jews in the name of the Church.

Slightly off topic. In the 1500s The Kingdom of Poland opened their lands to Jews persecuted in other areas. That is why Poland had such a high concentration of Jews pre-WW2. In Israel they have a Holocaust Memorial section called "Righteous Among the Nations" honoring those who risked everything to save Jews during WWII (Oskar Schindler included) . Polish Christians are the predominant population of those honored. They have a website telling the fascinating stories. (I am Polish-American, so I do a lot of research into my heritage. Family came over through the Ellis Island process 1870-1890)

I cannot speak for what Arab-Christians feel about Israel. Or how Jews feel about Arab-Christians. I'm sure there is some literature online outlining the sociological dynamics.
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Old 11-21-2016, 06:38 PM   #414
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I wonder, if Trump had won the popular vote by 1.7m but HRC had won the electoral college, how would he have handled that and what would he be doing right now?
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Old 11-21-2016, 06:41 PM   #415
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Trump General Discusion II

His supporters would make life a living hell for everyone else.

A different living hell than the one we're currently in.
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Old 11-21-2016, 06:41 PM   #416
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There is not an active attempt by mainstream Christianity to go over to Israel and try to convert Jews.
i guess you've never heard of Jews for Jesus then?
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Old 11-21-2016, 06:42 PM   #417
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I wonder, if Trump had won the popular vote by 1.7m but HRC had won the electoral college, how would he have handled that and what would he be doing right now?
civil war i reckon
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Old 11-21-2016, 06:43 PM   #418
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I wonder, if Trump had won the popular vote by 1.7m but HRC had won the electoral college, how would he have handled that and what would he be doing right now?

I think we already know the answer to that rigged question.


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Old 11-21-2016, 06:48 PM   #419
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Perhaps I'm coming at it from living in the church for a time, and not fully explaining it out. Evangelical Christians hold Judaism and the existence of Israel in high regard. There is goodwill that goes both ways. There is not an active attempt by mainstream Christianity to go over to Israel and try to convert Jews. They share a common history up to the point of recognizing Jesus as the messiah. This is where American Christianity is at today. Of course European history is full of purges of Jews in the name of the Church.

Slightly off topic. In the 1500s The Kingdom of Poland opened their lands to Jews persecuted in other areas. That is why Poland had such a high concentration of Jews pre-WW2. In Israel they have a Holocaust Memorial section called "Righteous Among the Nations" honoring those who risked everything to save Jews during WWII (Oskar Schindler included) . Polish Christians are the predominant population of those honored. They have a website telling the fascinating stories. (I am Polish-American, so I do a lot of research into my heritage. Family came over through the Ellis Island process 1870-1890)

I cannot speak for what Arab-Christians feel about Israel. Or how Jews feel about Arab-Christians. I'm sure there is some literature online outlining the sociological dynamics.

I can speak for what Arab Christians feel about Israel. They don't like Israel. Arab Christians might be Christian, but they're also Arab. While religion is often a scapegoat or a simplification for complex international problems, more often nationalism is the true feeding of the fire. What most don't discern is that Israel is a nation, not a religion. It's just a nation that is filled with Jewish people.

and those Arab Christians that I can attest for (and even I am making sweeping statements here)... they're still typically Trump supporters. In my experience. Due to the very same mind boggling reason (or lack thereof) that a lot of people are.

What you're describing about evangelical Christians holds true for practically every middle eastern and North African sect of Christianity. They all follow the Old Testament, as of course do the Jewish folks. That doesn't stop the fact that Israel is indeed a nation. When Israel fights Lebanon or Palestine or Egypt, they're fighting a nation. Underlying factors might be of religion, but Christians are still dying both ways. Israel does what every nation does (or should be doing) -- it tries to do whats best for its people. That is indeed often times at the expense of other countries.

To be blindly "pro-Israel" is not a Christian thing. It's an inherently *American* thing. It's only recently that the democrats have chosen to change course on that tone.
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Old 11-21-2016, 06:51 PM   #420
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i guess you've never heard of Jews for Jesus then?
I'm sure there are some. From what I gather from the mainstream Evangelical flow is that recognize Jews as God's chosen people and pray for their safety and that of Israel. There are Messianic Jews who have converted and recognize Jesus. (Are those Jews for Jesus you refer too?)
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